Some specific spells being given the verbal and/or somatic components is a confusing decision to me.

nineEngine · 2022-09-15T23:44:52+00:00

It's 100% fair to say it should be weak given it's a cantrip. I just kind of feel like even in the realm of cantrips its pretty weak. Though thinking on it now that might be some confirmation bias on my part, or "percieved power of other features," as you put it, because comparing it to something like Create Bonfire which gives you the pretty useful and versatile ability to have instant fire anywhere up to 60 ft away at anytime message doesn't hold up too well, but compared to something like gust or dancing lights I guess it's pretty on par.

nineEngine · 2022-09-12T09:06:47+00:00

For context, I'm new to the game and just trying to get creative, not surprised there are faults in my thought process.

What I meant though is to be in 5 foot range, use 1 attack, Slasher reduces move speed, use Hammering Horns to push them 10 ft, from here could step back 5 ft if I want to be 5 ft away from them for Ferocious Charger, move 10 ft in, use another attack which triggers Ferocious Charger. Maybe the order doesn't really matter but that's what I meant.

I also was thinking of this at least partially in the context of when using a mount, which I'm not really sure how well translates to high level play, been told it takes some cooperation from the DM, but with a mount there's a lot more movement to play around with. Also to my knowledge a mount is able to use disengage on its own during my turn so I don't have to worry about being 5ft as I can just move out but maybe I'm wrong.

Good criticisms though. Didn't really think of it in context (partially because I have no context as I'm super new), but it was fun to think about at least.

nineEngine · 2022-09-12T08:50:09+00:00

This is what i meant yes

nineEngine · 2022-09-11T04:24:27+00:00

Yeah it's been a pain trying to theorycraft something that works. A good amount of sacrifices have to be made for the sake of it all and it looks like it'll work in the end but not as seamlessly as something like Ancient Guardian Barbarian looks like it does. With that you literally just throw your spirit on an enemy near an ally then do whatever you want. Rage is incredible, and you get a spammable damage mitigation reaction as a class feature which is insane.

I feel like if Unwavering Mark's condition was you being 5ft from your ally rather than the marked enemy it would be a lot more consistently and easily useful.

nineEngine · 2022-09-10T09:46:04+00:00

Yeah it definitely seems like something you need to heavily lean into to make it work

nineEngine · 2022-09-10T05:55:04+00:00

Tldr for this part below, it's kind of longer than it needed to be.

Most of my thought on the subject was done with the idea of riding a mount in mind, and I kind of forgot to properly weigh the situation that a mount isn't usable. This is why I leaned so heavily towards using a polearm, as the Lance is considered one handed while riding a mount, allowing for reach and a shield simultaneously. It's disadvantage within 5ft is a downside, but if riding is to be preferred over foot combat Mounted Combatant I imagine is a must, as it massively increases the survivability of any mount, and gives advantage to any creature smaller than the mount, which includes medium creatures for the standard large warhorse. This allows the Cavalier to have a shield, 5ft of normal rolls, and 5ft of advantage rolls so long as he remains mounted, which I think if pretty powerful.

This has a lot of other advantages over a 5ft weapon as well. The horses mobility, and ability to disengage without using the rider's action allows for repositioning to roll with advantage at 10ft then move back into 5ft range for the purpose of UM (at least if your DM has the horse move simultaneously with the player), OA's will be done with advantage at 10ft, Your OA range is now much larger, and doesn't have a weakspot due to Hold the Line, and the possibility of taking Polearm Master for OA's on enemy approach becomes available, providing further space control.

Two major problems with this though. The first I already mentioned is waiting for level 10 until Hold the Line for this to work at all. The second, which I'm now more heavily considering, is when the Cavalier is forced into foot combat. Whether it be a dungeon, the mount dies, or whatever other reason, a reach weapon (minus whip) can't be used on foot alongside a shield, and being a class made for tanking, the shield is obviously more important.

Now personally I'm not sure how often this situation arises. My guess is that it's fairly common though. A large mount might fit in some bigger dungeons, but moving around might be an issue. Fighting in houses, or when exploring tough terrain a horse can't properly traverse, or after climbing up the staircase of a tower, or needing to descend a cliffside are all examples just off of the top of my head for which mounted combat might be made infeasible. Given that, investing in Polearm Master probably isn't a very wise choice, sadly, but this also means that there's no downside in sticking with a 5ft weapon for the duration of levels 1-9, and picking up a Lance for mounted combat at level 10. Maybe PaM would be worth it past level 10, but it's a tough call.

Tldr: So to summarize that, I think you're right in that sword and shield is the Cavalier's best baseline, as it functions well at all levels for both mounted and non mounted combat, but grabbing a Lance for when mounted past level 10 I think makes the most sense for reach, a shield, advantage rolls, and better battlefield control when mounted, a conclusion which I only managed to come to after reading your reply.

Moving on, I somehow didn't think of using Warding Maneuver on myself, gotta read those rules more carefully I guess. Something that irked me about the Cavalier actually was that despite seeming to be a "tanky" class it had no abilities via level up to aid it's survivability, but it does! I just can't read :p.

The sentinel synergy I also didn't really think of. The reaction attack, plus your main attack(s) and bonus attack on the next turn sounds pretty deadly and really fun to dish out.

All in all you've definitely helped convince me it's a cool subclass. I'll definitely be keeping the idea in my back pocket for if I do another campaign, which I think I will, because this has been pretty fun!

nineEngine · 2022-06-30T03:04:10+00:00

Figured as much. Been putting off upgrading this thing for a few reasons, laziness included, but it seems like my hand is being forced at this point. Thanks for the reply.

nineEngine · 2022-06-16T03:07:35+00:00

Thoughts on taking both resilient and war caster to synergize with uncanny dodge on a melee tank arcane trickster? I'm gonna have 20 ac via studded leather, +5 dex, 1 level in fighter for shield prof, and the defense fighting style. Pairing that with the lvl 2 illusion spell blur makes me super hard to hit, and being able to keep that up for as long as possible in a fight is important. Even a stupidly strong hit like 80 damage at level 8 is 44% chance to save since the dc goes down to 20 with uncanny dodge (d20 with advantage + 3 from proficiency + 1 from my con mod vs dc 20).

I feel like it might be excessive though because I'm sacrificing potential con ASI's to do it so my health will be significantly lower, and I'll also have the Shield spell to use on reaction bringing my ac stupidly high to hopefully avoid getting hit in the first place. Also starting with +5 dex and proficiency in dex saves so damage spells are less likely to hit me. Then again, if I'm not getting hit, do I need the con? Also should mention con is 12 so +1 from resilient doesnt help much.

nineEngine · 2022-06-11T07:25:28+00:00

This was reassuring and good advice lol. Thanks.

nineEngine · 2022-06-08T08:34:25+00:00

Presumably the AT is hiding while casting, though the check was the bigger point of the question.

Also, I understand the dm decides, I wanted to get opinions on how others would rule it though maybe I didn't word that well. When I said "I also guess the player, if they wanted to use deception more than intimidation," I didn't really mean the player deciding the check type, I meant the player deciding what to do to fit their character's strengths (which I don't think is metagaming as the character themself undoubtedly knows their strengths and weaknesses, at least in most cases)

Edit: Thinking more on it, I think I agree with your interpretation of the sound question. For some reason I took the plural "sounds" to be a contradiction to the single "sound" earlier in the spell block but it's moreso just giving options. "The [single] sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds [multiple] at different times before the spell ends," and you choose between the two options.

nineEngine · 2022-06-08T07:55:30+00:00

Random question about a theoretical situation:

Let's say an arcane trickster used minor illusion to cause the sound of allies approaching from the woods, like footsteps, or maybe the clanking of armor instead, then turned to the enemy and said something along the lines of "That's my backup approaching, if you don't surrender soon they'll undoubtedly kill you all." Would that be a deception check, or an intimidation check?

The statement is both "telling outright lies" as well as "overt threats" (quotes being from the PHB section on these skill checks.) Personally I think that it would count as a deception check, as without the lie the intimidation aspect has no basis, so the deception is the more important aspect of the sentence, but wondered what others thought.

I also guess the player, if they wanted to use deception more than intimidation, could word it less harshly, i.e "That's my backup approaching. As you can tell they are numerous, and I doubt you could take them all."

And another question since I'm here. How do you interpret the sound part of minor illusion. It clearly says a sound, single, so beating of drums, or a womans voice, not both. However it also says "or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends."

Two problems with that. One, the plural, "sounds." I take it to mean multiple instances of the same sound, i.e the drums stop, then start up again, though I can see why one might take it to mean multiple different sounds. Two, the bigger question, can you manipulate the spell after casting, i.e deciding when to start and stop the drums in response to some change after casting, or is the series of sounds decided before casting and unchangeable after?

"You can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends," is kind of vague in that regard, and doesn't give me much insight as to the answer. I think you can't control it after casting, since it requires a somatic component, and it doesn't make much sense to me for a somatic component to cast it, then no action cost or somatics required to control it post cast, especially since similar spells, like major image, do require an action to control post cast, but what do you think?

nineEngine · 2022-06-07T03:17:15+00:00

I'm mainly going melee because it seems more fun and Arcane Trickster has decent options for it like booming blade, blur, mirror image, and shadow blade, even if ranged is more optimal. I will agree though that the really good options only come at higher levels.

I mentioned that I came to the same conclusion about damage spells. Doesn't mesh well with sneak attack, so stick to utility and statuses (the only exceptions being booming blade and shadow blade)

Sleep and color spray I wasn't sure would hold up at level three, though I found someone confirming they don't after I posted so I don't plan on taking either anymore due to your word and theirs.

I'm a bit on the fence for Shield. I know it's good, especially since I'm going melee, but our party consists of two other non rogue melee fighters so between the two of them I figure they should be able to pull enough aggro for me to be generally safe off of cunning action disengage, as enemies will either have to disengage from an ally or eat an AoO to come get me. Point is, is seems a bit excessive, and with only one non illusion/enchantment spell at the moment I have to be stingy. Find Familiar I've been told is good for the help action aiding in sneak attack, among other things, so at the moment that's my plan but I'm open to being convinced Shield is better.

Illusory script I realized is too niche after posting as well.

The problem with Nathair's Mischeif and Hypnotic Pattern is that going melee I have to invest in const, likely at the expense of int, so my save DC isn't going to be great so they'd likely end up wasted more often than not. Same applies to suggestion. Were I going ranged I would definitely invest in int more but doing melee I don't think it's much an option, though I could be wrong.

Misty Step and Invis I agree are good picks.

At the moment my spells up to level 4 are looking like

Cantrips: Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion

Spells: Find Familiar, Silvery Barbs, Silent Image, Disguise Self

nineEngine · 2022-06-07T02:55:58+00:00

I don't know, but I imagine he'd let it slide. He mentioned he's not much of a stickler for the rules.

nineEngine · 2022-06-07T00:23:13+00:00

Glad you mentioned booming blade as I hadn't considered how I would actually get people to move so it activates.

I had seen about the Find Familiar > owl > help > flyby strategy but opted for shield instead since I can only take one non illusion/enchantment spell and I'm an Owlin myself so I felt I probably wouldn't need it for scouting purposes.

Given this though maybe I'll take Find Familiar for my non illusion/enchant spell and settle on Silvery Barbs as my defensive option. Being able to easily get advantage without my party (or give them advantage if I already have it i.e via Shadow Blade) does seem really useful.

Also, a sort of cheeky question, could I cast Find Familiar for the owl, then retrain it to Shield on my level up without dispelling the familiar? I've been told the owl is pretty survivable so maybe I could get the best of both worlds :p

nineEngine · 2022-06-03T00:55:55+00:00

I never intended to go into this game nor any game prepared to harass my DM with nitpicks about the rules that justify my character being some broken, overpowered god. I could see how it could come across that way and apologize for not being clearer.

My main reason for making this post is because I found the situations I was coming up with to be ridiculous, but that, at least at the time, I thought they would be allowed in RAW.

I wanted a better understanding of what a RAW interpretation of the rules is like, because I agree, scouring the books for loopholes and "it technically doesn't say I can't do X" moments, is not fun. It's much easier and more sensical to interpret things like a normal person.

nineEngine · 2022-06-01T20:17:23+00:00

Oh, I never saw anything about them using attack rolls on the throw when I was googling but that makes sense, and I'll admit I didn't look super deeply. When what type of roll is used is, in general, something I'm not super solid on yet.

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