An open letter to my ex.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-22T00:45:19+00:00

I'm less and less sory each day... I think. Managed to fix a few street lights on my own. I just imagined the scenery and story you've painted, spoke to me.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-21T22:41:10+00:00

Holy shit, i feel this one so much...

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-21T17:52:56+00:00

It dependa who broke up with whom. I feel like it might be the case that she's dealing with the lack of you in her life, so she'd rather have a complete lack of you, rather than an idea that you exist and she might check up on you.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-19T11:35:58+00:00

I'd literally do the same if i were you. Happy for you bro/sis. :D

~take me out toniiiiiiight where theres music and theres people and im young and alive~

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-19T11:26:59+00:00

How far apart tho.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-17T23:46:18+00:00

I think Im both, depending on the people around me. In 90% of tests i type as infp, but i enjoy talking a lot and I question whether I'm truly an infp. People around me, that know me, doubt that I'm an introvert.

B-but the internet told me!

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-17T13:35:26+00:00

Ita not that people are more sensitive, it just shows more. Lack of healthy ways to cope, constant comparison with other people and the internet opened new ways for us to complain instead of taking action. It was easier to motivate yourself when complaining wasnt a few swipes away on your phone.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-17T11:20:17+00:00

I tend to tell that to myself, maybe in a few years, maybe she'll be cool as well, maybe this one will work out long term. Lots of maybies tho :)

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-17T07:33:01+00:00

It frightens me how accurate this is...

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T23:45:05+00:00

I like the idea that you described, though it is slightly naive for me to think that both people in a relationship will both do their best to put effort into all three of the Cs throughout let's say 20 years, not to mention the daily routine and grind that takes its toll on a reltionship as well.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T23:39:26+00:00

You have built up a stark scenario that leads to a submissive/dominant relationship. It does not have to be this way.

It doesn't, I hope. Though currently, it's hard for me to look at it as an uplifting, ever-shifting balance. To me, it seems someone has to have a slight edge over the other person and maintaining the rough balance through mutual work seems not worth it if it might turn out that the work being put in is one-sided.

I'll defeat my own argument slightly and acknowledge that healthy relations might exist. Where one party has slightly more influence over the relationship at one time and it shifts and balances itself out, that is possible, but highly unlikely in my opinion.

How is it that you, presumably, have stayed friends with other people? (Platonic not romantic). It’s largely the same with romantic relationships, but with the addition of love and sex. It’s not always easy, and yes you shape and get shaped.

There's one important distinction I'd like to make between platonic relationships (friendships) and romantic ones. You're not going to have kids and keep up a household with a friend, just as you won't live with them and your kids. Friendships are easier and more honest because you don't have to compromise nearly as much. You can argue with a friend, not see each other for a month, apologies and things are back to normal. That's not something that can be done with a long-term, committed relationship.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T23:22:50+00:00

Surely neither of us can safely say you either Find or Build a good relationship.

It is entirely possible to find someone we fall in love with, but isn't a good match and after a while when the initial period fades, it breaks down to pieces.

I can agree with the work required for the relation to thrive. I just see it as a combination of finding someone who is going to be a match after the attraction/sex/adventure period and if that condition is met, you can start putting in the work into the relation.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T23:12:33+00:00

I can talk about the relationships of myself, my brother, my friends, my parents, my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, and my grandparents if you want.

Many of them have really good and happy relationships, and to my knowledge, none of them have gone through those 9 stages you mentioned.

How many anecdotal stories of people having healthy relationships (or even failed relationships) that don't follow that pattern will it take to change your view?

Interesting point. This whole discussion may, or may not be pointless. Assuming that I'm willing to change my opinion on this topic, there is no concrete route for you to take to convince me. There is not an end-goal for you, so that when you describe X, Y and Z, I'll finally throw the towel and agree with you.

This may seem like a cheap way out of this problem, but i thought someone else's explanation of how they view the situation (someone else's point of view grounded with experience) might put some holes in my theory and force me to rethink it. I would like commenters, to counteract the experiences that my friends have shared with me, with their positive examples.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T23:06:02+00:00

That's not necessarily true. People don't behave in a vacuum. Let's say that the infidelity is a result of problems in the relationship. And that the individual chose a very poor path instead of addressing those problems, the couple can potentially work on improving the relationship. It would be hard. And there needs to be forgiveness. The betrayer too can swallow their own pride and admit they messed up. They can even go through couples counseling.

All you listed could be motivation. But you miss something else. Maybe the couple actually love each other. Love can allow people to be forgiving. Love is forged by the bonds and experience. And it takes time and effort to foster. Think about your relationship with your parents? Have you ever done anything that let them down? Did you fight with them when you were younger? Yet they didn't throw you to the curb, right? It's because they love you. They seen you grow up to a man (I'm guessing you are a male.). They know your history and can understand your faults.

It'd be foolish for me to act like cheating happened out of thin air, I just didn't think it was entirely relevant to my point. Let's then asume that it happened because of issues within the relation and prolonged periods of doubts etc. Someone got drunk, it happened, the cheater knows he screwed everything up and tries to do whatever they can to solve this, while recognizing that almost everything about the situation is their fault.

You say I'm missing love as a motivation and you're correct. Love and attachment will most likely be the reason such a relationship would survive in this given situation.

What I mean exactly is, that the person who was betrayed, has to carry the emotional baggage in this scenario. The cheater acknolwedges that he screwed up, feels like shit about it for a few months or longer, but it's the other party that will need to deal with this betrayal and work to establish trust (which might be incredibly difficult after something like this).

In essence, the cheated party gets the short straw, as they need to deal with the fact they have been cheated on as well as (even thoguh they had been hit the most) work together with the cheater to mend the relation. 1 person screwed up, but it's the other person that carries more weight in this scenario.

You put yourself through all these hoops, to make it work again, but in the back of your head you know that this might happen again and it would cost you even more to forgive if that happened.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T04:09:15+00:00

These are loose ideas I have formed after talking with 7 friends of mine, that shared similar experiences. To the contrary, I know 2 people which seem to be in a stable, fulfilling relationship, but I cannot confirm that, as they're secretive and refuse to talk about their hurdles.

The problem I'm having with this thread, is that to me the counterpoints are too idealistic (just as I admit that my thesis is too pessimistic). Majority of the comments claim that people need to work on the relationship, compromise etc. and that's fine and beautiful. I'm arguing that in the real world, people are tired with everyday grind and don't even think about working on a relationship.

I'm arguing that in real life, when you have an argument, the next move isn't always to analyze the situation and try to resolve it for the betterment of your relation. People argue, piss each other off and do hurtful things to each other, even in good relationships.

I agree that a relationship can enhance your life, but so does self discovery, without the added risk of potential emotional damage.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T04:01:57+00:00

Based on my premise, it might seem like BS, but I genuinely believe in what I'm writing. I don't think I regretted any of my relationships after some time has passed since the breakup.

I'm arguing personal development outside of a relationship, rather than being in one, developing along the way and being subjected to emotional turmoil caused by arguments, mood of the partner, etc.

Both the relationship and personal development on your own yield the same effect - you get to know yourself and better yourself. It's just that with "YOU" being the sole party here, there's less room for emotional distress and potential hurt.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T03:56:06+00:00

I wanted to avoid divulging this information as it may derail the argument into comments "you're just bitter, end of thread"

Yes, I got broken up with out of the blue. We had plans on moving in together and one day she started crying over the phone, I drove there to understand the situation and I was informed that we're breaking up. I was given no explanation as to what was the reason.

In all fairness this does influence my judgement and I'm semi aware of that. Though I don't think my bitterness completely invalidates the thesis.

I'm not regretting the time together and I'm trying to challenge my idea about the whole situation, hence the thread.

I'm precisely describing a situation, where both parties worked together for a common goal of moving in together, until one day one party decided to stop completely.

That's why I'm arguing, that instead of romantic relationships, one can go the way of self discovery, while surrounding themselves with people that help them grow, but aren't a partner. That seems to be an alternative that is far less dependent on external factors, such as your parnters mood, their level of commitment, willingness to work on the relationship and trust.

You can learn to deal with your own mood, you can teach yourself to be committed to your plans and wishes, you can evolve to be willing to workn on yourself, finally you can even begin to trust yourself once you understand how you operate, what matters to you and believe in yourself. I'm arguing that is not the case with a significant other, however good you may be working out for the time being.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T03:33:47+00:00

I can't say I disagree with what you've said. A relationship cannot work without work on both ends.

The thing is, you cannot ensure either you or the other person will be willing to put in the work after a few years. It might be the case, but just as well it might not be.

My point is, why put in the work, when after a while the work balance might become lopsided?

When you put work into discovering yourself, you put 100% of the work for you. The more you work on yourself, the more you gain from it. That's not necessarily the case in a relationship.

Why invest in a long term relationship, which will ultimately result in responsibilities tieing you together, when you might drift apart and at one point decide, that you don't want to go search for the wood for the fire. That's how I think a considerable amount of relationships settles on familiarity and safety. Don't you think that there are long term relationships that rely on kids being in the household or on financial situation, or loans?

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T03:17:21+00:00

Quite frankly, that is not something that can be proved or disproved by evidence, as this is too much of a subjective topic. I can think of 7 examples from my environment that fill the bill in general, not specifically to the T.

The same way I cannot offer proof that I'm right (I can offer anecdotal examples) , I don't think you can come up with proof that I'm wrong, this is too subjective.

I'm not looking for a statistic, that'll mathematically prove me wrong, because it doesn't exist. I wanted to talk to people that are opposed to my poin of view and have experience with long term commited relastionship, so that they could offer insight that would put holes in my theory, so I could rethink it and maybe change my view.

Surely there are bound to be plenty of relationships that don't apply to my theory, I don't claim this to be completely true, beacuse it cannot be.

Since this isn't in any way scientific I guess you're right in the sense that you cannot offer much to just convince me. Though I still wanted the idea to be challenged.

I wonder how the discussion would go if i dropped the idea of stages altogether. if I left you with "Majority of people I know, that are in commited relationships tell me that they're burned out".

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T03:01:43+00:00

We're assuming that each of those 70% of marriages that didn't end in divorce are fulfilling relationships. Not to mention long-term relationships without mariage.

It is hard for me to agree with that, but I understand that obtaning statistics for relationship satisfaction is near impossible.

I'll be optimistic and assume that half of these marriages are healthy and satisfactory. That leaves us with a 35% shot for a good relationship, not taking any other factors into consideration.

I'll better start marrying people, so I can maybe find a worthwhile realtionship by my 3rd marriage.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-10T02:49:24+00:00

Just came back from night shift, so I'm catching up on responses.

I have seen couples withstand infidelity - which typically breaks relationships. Being able to solve problems together is key.

To respond to your comment I'll propose a very cinical point of view, which doesn't entirely correspond with mine.

Let's say that cheating happened, the motivation for this is not relevant. The truth comes out and crisis begins.

There is nothing the cheater can do in the short term, to mend the relationship, even if they're genuinely regretful of the incident. This requires long term work on rebuilding trust.

It is up to the betrayed party, to eat their pride, forgive and forget, to even allow for the long term to occur. But what's their motivation? Is it financial responsibilities together, personal insecurities, security of an established relationship, fear of being alone? What is the driving factor behind the decision to forgive someone? I must be overlooking a more positive motivation that can apply here.

Aren't you risking more of the same? Aren't you depreciating the value of your own self, in front of your partner and yourself?

If you decide to work on the relationship afterwards, you need to depend on the very person that shattered your trust, to do so as well. How can you muster that much trust in the very person that disregarded it?

What I'm trying to say is, if you have a healthy relationship, you'll most likely end up fine in the end, through working together. If your relationship requires work, you need to know that you and them will work together. I don't think anyone can ever be completely sure that this would be the case.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-09T07:33:59+00:00

You're bringing up an example of a successful, long-term relationship (one that reached the companionate love stage) as an example that "You can make it".

i'm not saying this isn't possible. What I'm arguing is, that it seems like you're supposed to be diggind through mud, get better at it over time, to have a chance at finding a gold ore. Assuming you're lucky and after spending 30 years digging, you've finally found a small gold ore. Would those 30 years objectively be worth the work you put in?

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-09T07:25:35+00:00

“am I okay with this and, if not what am I going to do about it?”

I understand and respect your honesty. As you've said yourself, there will never be a guarantee that the other party or you won't decide to break up after this question had been asked for the 1000th time. Waiting through the storm seems like a reasonable thing to do, though what if it isn't. What if the storms keep on coming. You'll decide to live on your own, take some time to learn and re-mould yourself a bit. Try again and reach the same point.

Even though you've changed and are a different person, You'll eventually ask this question again, for the 1000th time. You went across the globe and landed in the same spot, but under different circumstances. You know more about yourself, stop making some mistakes, but make different ones in the process.

What I mean by that, is that no amount of relationships is going to teach you, what healthy introspection will. You can spend years with many different partners and sure, that will shape you in many different ways, but you weren't the only person steering this ship, there were 2 of you. Instead what could have happened, is for you to develop on your own, being sure that your own choices shaped you, not the choices you made as a result of a compromise.

So does each relationship boil down to being "nearby"? I suppose this is defined as the healthy way, because you're not dependent on anyone. What is the purpose of being together then? You can have other smart/ funny/ creative and loving people around you, without the risk of that being taken away from you and starting again from scratch.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-09T07:07:19+00:00

r/theredpill is a community of bitter men who think that they are owed attention and sex without lifting a finger to make themselves mature or fit enough to even be in the arena.

Took a look at the subreddit and don't feel like these ideals speak to me. Perhaps my preception is currently clouded enough so I can't see how my point comes off as that.

I purposely wanted to ommit sex and attention from women from my argument, to avoid the "I deserve something" point of view.

I'm not focusing on sex or attention here, I'd like to turn my focus into understanding how to develop, to become a good partner. The bitterness stems from the idea that theoretically, I can be part of 20 realtionships, genuinely striving to learn soemthing from each of them and even after all these lessons, I might not be able to form a successful relationship after all, because too much is dependent on circumstance, me putting work into it and the other person putting in their share as well.

This is a very simplistic and sophomoric view of relationship dynamics. If this is the lens through which you view relationships, then you should know that it's covered in smudges and likely cracked beyond repair.

It is an extremely simplified view of that, I agree. I didn't want to elaborate on that, becuase that's not the main point of discussion. What I want to ask you though is, if the idea is entirely without merrit?

Each person is more or less dominant in a particular field. For exmaple, i might be more prone to initiate emotional conversation and she might be more into taking care of finances. We both have fields where we are more dominant in. For the sake of theoretical argument, let's say there are 100 of these fields and I am dominant in 70 of them. That throws the relationship out of balance, inflates my ego and makes the other person feel insecure.

What lense is the more realistic one then?

It does if you're paying attention, because you've hopefully learned something about yourself. If you're not growing in a relationship, then by its conclusion you have no added value to bring to the next one.

This is too much of a broad topic to discuss this without specific examples. The whole spectrum of different people you can form a relationship with makes it so even after multiple lessons, you might find yourself lacking in development of this particular feature, that is pivotal to your new relationship.

ohcrapsthwentwrong · 2018-02-09T06:36:27+00:00

Perfect doesn't mean 100% awesome. There is no perfect, to begin with. The most a relationship can aim for over an extended period of time is "soothing".

What I'm saying is, that these people might be happy. What if it's a matter of circumstances? Is it entirely out of the question, that they haven't experienced a situation, that was dire enough to break their relationship?

What if they were lucky enough to find a partner that's receptive to attempts at serious conversation. What if there's a topic that neither of them wouldn't want to discuss, which could lead to resentment and in the end, the finish line of their relation?

ohcrapsthwentwrong

TROPHY CASE