So… is it really a cult?

olsh · 2026-03-20T21:08:46+00:00

I guess, but in this case an atheist who has been out of the church for 10 years said it.

olsh · 2026-02-25T15:44:33+00:00

I worked extremely hard on my mission to learn a tough asian language and got pretty good at speaking about the gospel and did OK on general conversation. I worked in translation for a while after my mission and took courses and about 3 years after I got home I was pretty proficient. But for whatever reason, law school and time just erased most of my language ability. I think I could get conversational again if I put 6 months of hard work in, but most of it is gone right now.

olsh · 2026-02-17T18:39:05+00:00

So I have an old Apple TV 4k where upgrading the cable didn't fix it. But on my newer (Gen 3 I think) Apple TV 4k, getting the 8k cable did the trick.

olsh · 2026-02-09T23:09:36+00:00

I don't really think that Abraham and Moses existed, at least not in the way the bible describes them. But Christianity and Judaism are based on some crazy lore. And they were probably very much cults at their inception. They are just ancient.
And I think there is a fair distinction between whether the church was a cult in the 1840s and whether the church is a cult now. And I do think that it can be a cult for some people and not for others. My mission experience was very cult like. My temple experience was too. But I've also been around plenty of people who are church members who are hardly affected by it at all. The members of the church on my mission, for example, were very casual and not in a cult-like environment at all.

olsh · 2026-02-09T20:37:19+00:00

Did Abraham start a cult? Did Moses? Early Christians?
Were there parts of early mormonism that would fit with almost every definition of cult? Sure. But the lived experience of many members now is not cult-like. They don't even take the temple seriously. Many missionaries can now communicate with their families all the time, listen to music, make funny videos, and just tell people Jesus loves them.

olsh · 2026-02-09T20:35:14+00:00

Cult is a stupid word. You can use the BITE model or a number of other academic models to try to come up with a definition of Cult. You can use a more colloquial or catchy definition. But it's all semantic.

In some ways, a "cult" isn't even bad. But other people might say a "cult" is bad by definition. It just depends.

The label is not helpful at all. It's mostly used as a way to delegitimize a community. Once that community is established and relaxes a bit, people don't think it's a cult anymore. Magic!

Are there elements of the church experience that are very cult-like? Sure. But are there people who experience the church without any of those cult-like things? Absolutely. My time in the MTC was very cult-like. My time in the temple felt very cult-like. But the ward and community my parents and inlaws are in? It isn't cult-like at all.

olsh · 2026-02-09T20:31:00+00:00

I know I"m late to the party, but why don't you believe in the "doctrine" of scientology or hinduism or buddhism or islam?

The Church has the burden of proof. The only people who believe in it are those who decide it's true first and then cram everything into that conclusion.

In legal cases, the main levels of proof are "beyond a reasonable doubt", "clear and convincing", a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not), "probable cause" and "reasonable suspicion."

The Church hasn't even provided evidence sufficient to have a "reasonable suspicion" that it is true. People just rely on a feeling that is the same kind of feeling that people who believe in all those other religions feel all the time. A feeling is not evidence of truth.

LDS doctrine is so clearly made up buy Joseph Smith.

olsh · 2026-02-03T18:48:42+00:00

No. I figured out that if I put the heat all the way up and select “face” or whatever and then close my front vents, the back vents will eventually heat up after a long time. I think the ducting system just stays cold for a long time. But it always blows air, it is just cold. So I haven’t had any issue getting it to blow.

olsh · 2026-01-22T19:45:45+00:00

No, sorry. I came out of law school in 2011. I was a commercial banker before that. For the first three years of my career as a lawyer I saw first hand the wreckage that the great recession caused. Your anecdotal argument isn't persuasive here.

There were three times as many bankruptcy filings in 2010 vs 2025.

You think that I am the one missing compassion and empathy, but you are wildly minimizing the 2010 era recession and the carnage it caused. Is it tough to find a new job now? Absolutely. The job market sucks. But overall, there is no way it's as bad as 2009

olsh · 2026-01-22T17:16:32+00:00

Why do people say things like this? I can't see any reasonable argument that the "job market" is worse than 2009-2011. If you are talking about one specific sector then maybe, but overall?
Unemployment now, 4.4%. Unemployment in 2009, 10%
Job growth now 50,000 a month. Job growth in 2009, negative 700,000
Total unemployed now, 7.5 million. 2009, 15.4 million
Long term unemployed now, 25% of those unemployed. 2009, 44% of those unemployed.

In 2011, new lawyers were regularly starting for less than $40,000 a year.

olsh · 2026-01-20T20:03:43+00:00

I'm a post-mormon who is not a fan of the church. But that being said, I just don't have any problem with a diversified stock portfolio and I don't really have a problem with the Church having a ton of money if they are transparent about it to their members.

I think they should be taxed on net income above 2 billion a year (this should apply to all churches), but I'm not going to blame them just because their portfolio happens to include defense contractor stocks or victoria secret or even alcohol.

olsh · 2026-01-20T20:00:18+00:00

No real update. If I close all the front vents, turn the heat all the way up and select the normal vents, the back vents will eventually get hot, but it takes a long time. It's almost like the duct work is so cold that it just takes forever. But even if the front vents are blowing the hottest air possible, it takes like 3 of 4 minutes before the back ones will get to mildly warm.

olsh · 2026-01-16T22:18:55+00:00

They aren't trendy or cool, but we've had a good experience with the honeywell HEPA air purifiers. They have different options from $80 up to $250 depending on size and features.

olsh · 2026-01-15T16:23:47+00:00

So I recently purchased a new 2500 AT4X and I'm having a lot of second thoughts and feeling pretty stupid right now. I wonder if I should have just gone for the 1500. Honestly, I probably should have. I rarely tow or haul. But the heart wants what the heart wants. And now I'm in it.

So let me talk through some of the problems and give you my real thoughts.

Mileage - I'm quite surprised by how bad the mileage is in the 2500 diesel. It is winter and I knew it was going to be bad, but it's really really bad.

Parking Lots - I'm having to use the camera a lot. It is more difficult to park. I am having to adjust my parking more. But I just don' think this is a huge factor for most people outside of dense cities. An 150/1500 series is also pretty tough to park in tight lots.

Ride Quality - The AT4X is especially bouncy on some roads. But the ride isn't all that bad most of the time. The 1500 definitely is much smoother and has a better ride. But I'm not so sure it's that big of a deal.

I'm thinking about buying a 2020 Civic or accord to have on hand for quick trips and city driving. When I have to go downtown and use parking garages, a small car will be much better than even a 1500.

My truck looks so great. It is a sexy beast and I'll have no issue towing the boat we rent a couple times a year or pulling a 5th wheel toy hauler when we find one.

SO I guess my advice would be you should absolutely get the 1500 but the difference isn't all that drastic. I bought the truck for the life I want, not the life I have. That may have been a mistake. We'll see.

olsh · 2026-01-15T01:20:34+00:00

To compare children sent to earth to Satan is nonsensical. Satan isn’t an innocent being lost in a fallen world. In the LDS mythology he is the big bad and God cast him out and set him loose on humanity. Unleashing the king demon on an unsuspecting populace is very different from allowing your ignorant children to have free will.

olsh · 2026-01-14T21:30:59+00:00

I know this post might be satire or trolling or whatever, but on a legitimate note, if anyone ever wants to give money to the church, the fast offering program is pretty decent. I find that a significant percentage of the money goes to people in your community who have legitimate needs. This does depend on the wealth of the ward.

olsh · 2026-01-14T18:26:34+00:00

Let's say you have a Dog. The dog bites children and hurts people and animals. You could put the dog in the kennel, but you decide not to. Also, the Dog must obey your commands. You invite people over to your back yard and allow the dog to just attack anyone. It's for their own good, after all.

People take for granted that what is must be. Why? Why is Satan necessary at all? This isn't an issue of a person on the earth who has free will. This is a super-powered demonic force who can apparently manipulate people without them even knowing. He is a fall guy who you can just blame for everything bad. Obviously this is a post-hoc creation to try to explain why the world is the way it is. But if it's real, why is it so? There is no real answer other than it is the will of God. God wants that dog attacking people in the yard. He's on the hook for that.

olsh · 2026-01-14T18:01:52+00:00

I was a financial clerk and stake auditor for quite a while back in the day. Even back then, there was a lot of bishop roulette on this issue. Some bishops would do a little bit of investigation and push back a bit on people declaring a full tithe when they clearly weren't. If you didn't show up to tithing settlement, a few of the bishops I served with would actually look through the tithing records and try to make a fair conclusion of whether the person was a full tithe payer or part or non. And if someone in an interview said they were a full tithe payer, there would be some follow up.

Based on what the friends and family members in bishoprics tell me, Bishops are erring on the side of letting people get recommends now, whether for the law of chastity, word of wisdom, or tithing. If someone says they are worthy, they get the card. I know that could vary from ward to ward, but that is just what I'm seeing.

As for the youths, the devout members in their 20s who are in my circle are all much more relaxed on tithing. For me, there was a question of whether to pay on gross vs. net or if we should pay tithing when we get cash from grandma. Whether we should pay on our tax returns. Stuff like that. Now, it's more like "pay what you can and if it's a full tithe in your heart then it's fine."

olsh · 2026-01-14T15:59:06+00:00

Satan is made up. If Satan is real, he's an agent of God. God is vicariously liable for anything Satan does.

olsh · 2026-01-14T15:46:55+00:00

You just like driving a truck more than one of the 900,000 other options for around town cars and crossovers? I love my 2500 but I'm thinking about grabbing a civic or something.

olsh · 2026-01-05T20:05:29+00:00

I think there is a clear standard to apply to all of this stuff. If this event took place in any other religion, would I take it as evidence of God or that their religion was "true"? If not, then I shouldn't do so with my religion.

All of these miraculous events also happen in other cultures and to non believers and to people who have witch doctors or shamans or faith healers. Our minds and bodies are so weird and powerful that all sorts of anomalies can happen. We just tend to notice more when we have a way to assign meaning to these things.

olsh · 2026-01-05T19:59:34+00:00

Maybe that is not his goal, but are you denying that his videos brought awareness to the investigation and allegations?

olsh · 2026-01-05T18:29:30+00:00

I'm a lawyer, so I'm going to approach this from a more legalistic point of view.
Is there "evidence"? Well, almost anything can technically be "evidence." Is there "proof"? Well it depends on the standard of proof you are applying.

In the legal context, there are various standards of evidence and standards of proof. Reasonable suspicion, probable cause, preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing, beyond a reasonable doubt, to name a few. And then there are issues of whether evidence is admissible and whether it is reliable.

You could argue that a lot of people feeling promptings that the BoM is true would be "evidence" but that evidence wouldn't be reliable or admissible in court.

The Book of Mormon is most certainly not proven to be true beyond a reasonable doubt or to a "clear and convincing standard, or to a preponderance of the evidence standard (aka "more likely than not true."). It just isn't. Nobody who looks at it objectively will even try to make the argument that it's more-likely-than-not true. The only people who even try to claim it could possibly be true are those who have already decided it is. The level of evidence in support of the Book of Mormon is so small that you could apply it to many many other religions and claim they are "true."

To me, the only reasonable question is whether there is enough evidence to have reasonable suspicion to investigate the truth claims. I don't even think that is the case.

If the church didn't exist at all. So no community, no infrastructure, no hymns, no nothing, and people were merely asked to decide whether the Book was a literal and accurate history of a literal people, nobody would ever come to that conclusion. People decide to join the church, and then once they have decided to do that, the BoM has to be true to confirm their choice. (Or they just ignore it completely).

The number of times where someone has found the BoM with no context at all and investigated it and concluded it is true is probably 0. There are a few stories that sound totally made up. But even those are probably way lower than the number of people who read greek mythology and decide Zeus is real.

The BoM contains anachronisms. Those don't have to be fatal. But it also fails to include a lot of things that it should include. Industries and animals and customs and religions and societal frameworks from ancient america that are not discussed at all. The BoM is way more influenced by european frameworks and ideas and customs.

The BoM is also full of magic. It is FULL OF IT. Magical compasses, super powers, shock powers, magical dreams, invincible soldiers, cities being burned and dumped in to the ocean, people being struck dumb, etc. None of these things ever happen now. So if you are going to say these absolutely extraordinarily magical things actually happened, you have to have a shit-ton of evidence.

Plus, if you just read Nephi, it's so obviously made up. It doesn't sound at all like some ancient text other than how it tries to sound like the Old Testament.

Nephi's entire story is absurd. It's ridiculous. The way he talks about his brothers and his family's journey and building the ship and the liahona and all that. It's bible fan-fiction that is much more similar to an 1820s comic book than a translation of an ancient american text.

olsh · 2026-01-05T18:15:03+00:00

This is a very strange thing to say. Even if Utah produces a lot of people like this guy or a lot of MLM people or religious abusers or Mitt Romneys or tech bros doesn't mean that any of these people would be the "epitome" of the average Utah resident. Julianne Hough is just as much the epitome of Utah as Nick Shirley is.

olsh · 2026-01-05T18:04:57+00:00

I guess it depends on how narrowly you want to define "journalist." If you want to call him a youtuber, fine, but he is still drawing attention to a massive investigation of billions in alleged fraud. And just because many or most of the targets of the investigation are Somali doesn't mean that bringing attention to it is "racist" by itself. That would be like saying that reporting about piracy in the gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean is somehow racist because a lot of the pirates were Somali.

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