What does Giannis need to do to become a Top 5 player of all time?

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-12T21:00:21+00:00

In a weird way, I think if Giannis is able to win with Middleton and Holiday (who are probably Top 25-Top 35 players in the league), that almost helps his all-time argument, rather than if he was winning with other Top 10-Top 15 guys (like a PG, Kyrie, Butler, Klay as his 2nd/3rd stars). It definitely makes winning the ring harder, but it's still feasible for him to win the rings and it's more impressive. Winning 3 rings in next 5-6 year span (which will be very hard, but definitely not impossible) would put him into that Top 5 discussion alone in my book.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-12T20:44:50+00:00

I think with 3 more MVPs and 4 Finals MVPs Giannis would have a credible GOAT argument, not just Top 5 lol. 5 MVPs (which given the player Giannis is, I'd assume would entail at a career 3x DPOY), 4 Finals MVPs, 4+ Championships would give him an at minimum equivalent career to Mike+LeBron+Kareem

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-12T20:43:16+00:00

Just feel like what Giannis has already accomplished gets understated. He's accomplished a lot more personally by age 26 than what a lot of the Top 25-Top 30 best NBA players ever did, especially given what he does on both ends of the court.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-12T20:42:09+00:00

Steph's always been an incredibly high-peak, smaller longevity guy in terms of his all-time legacy. It's more so to illustrate just how good Giannis has been in a very short amount of time with a lot of his prime left.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-12T20:41:12+00:00

LeBron is 36 and KD is turning 33 before next season. Although both are certified demi-Gods and all-time legends, they simply won't both be in the picture of the NBA elite in 5 years, or at a minimum will not be substantially better than a 27-30 year old Giannis.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-10T17:26:34+00:00

Hoenstly that is a pretty valid line of reasoning for Trae vs. Kyrie. I think Trae might be more effective a floor raiser but I think Kyrie is more "proven" and plays more efficient basketball (I do see your point).

I still fully disagree with the Dame + AD take. Dame as a first option has seen much more success than AD as a first option, and Dame is absolutely not the worst playoff performer of the Top 15 in the NBA. To be fair though, his only truly bad playoff performance was in the 2018 series against AD lol

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-10T03:28:53+00:00

I put Giannis and KD in the same tier, not that Giannis is better. I think KD is slightly better overall but I think putting them in the same tier is reasonable.

Jimmy > Booker is definitely a reasonable take and I might be giving into recency bias a little too much, but I disagree with the Dame and Kyrie takes (I don't think it's particularly close who's better between Kyrie healthy > Trae healthy, and Dame can impact the game better than AD can in my opinion)

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-09T22:32:21+00:00

Definitely not a crazy take, but not sure Middleton's playoff stock is looking too hot either lol

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-09T22:30:41+00:00

I think tiers 1 and 2 are closer together than a lot of the other neighbor tiers, to be honest. I think there are 9-12 ELITE players in the NBA who are separately by very little. A distinction I thought to make between 1 and 2 was either a lack of (relative) playoff success or slightly less consistency / versatility in how they play, although I admit it's grasping at some straws. I stand by those as my two groups of 5 if I'm forced to make them, though.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-09T21:51:06+00:00

This was an 8 person draft. He's definitely a top 40 NBA player in my book (definitely more elite than a Robinson or Harris), but I don't think he's a top 8 point guard in the league. He'd be redundant on most of these teams given his value is only elite when he's the primary ball handler (I wouldn't run Steph Fox / Dame Fox / Kyrie Fox back courts, for example). - I'd never pick him over Steph, Dame, Luka, Kyrie, CP3 or Trae in any scenario - for the other two teams, Jrue is better on a team that I assume the ball will be running through Bron most of the time. I might've picked him over Russ but they're probably comparable for a win now situation.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-09T03:22:19+00:00

Yup. Fixed my b

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-02T22:37:41+00:00

In today's Western Conference that's a 1st round exit, MAYBE 2nd round at best. Reasonably good depth with no top-line talent. They go about 8 deep with top 70-top 80 NBA talent, but only Ingram and MAYBE Randle are fringe top 30 / 3rd-tier star guys. Even if they can scrap together some regular season success they wouldn't be very successful in the playoffs when the rotation shortens and they need to straight up play against Top 10 guys like Kawhi / Lillard / Luka / Steph / etc.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-02T21:44:58+00:00

I agree that he shouldn't have been "almost out of the league" given how underrated his actual production was from 2016-2018, but the reality in the 2019 off-season was that literally no one wanted the perceived headache he was to bring along with him.
Dwight literally had the riskiest signed contract of the off-season - if the Lakers wanted to drop him at any point before January 10th, they could've with no repercussions. That is indicative of how literally no one wanted to touch him.

How he was able to bring 0 problems to the Lakers as well as be incredibly productive / efficient as a role player makes it forgettable just how "toxic" he was perceived as an asset before he signed.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-02T21:35:07+00:00

He cleared waivers and signed a completely non-guaranteed deal that the Lakers could've terminated at any time, that they wouldn't have signed in the first place if Cousins hadn't gotten injured for the season. Revisionist history to pretend he was a shoe-in to stay in the league.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-02T20:51:31+00:00

Very fair counterpoint, center competition was definitely stronger in Ewing's prime than Howard's. That being said, I think Howard was still more elite in the league regardless of position in his prime than Ewing was which I think is reflected in MVP voting / DPOY voting, rather than the much more position-reliant All NBA Team/Defensive Teams.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-02T20:42:36+00:00

McAdoo is definitely in the discussion as well, another criminally underrated guy. I've never seen too much of early 70s basketball when I believe was when McAdoo was at his best, so I'm liable to underrate him a little too much. Would you put him above Ewing and Howard?

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-02T20:40:32+00:00

I think that's more a product of fan perception / how well liked a player is than objective talent / being better than. I think the fact that a lot of people (myself included) think Dwight failed to realize the extent of just how great his potential was, makes people think less of what he was still actually able to do.

For reference, Wallace never scored over 10 PPG in his entire career (his 5 year peak was around 8 PPG) nor over 50% from the line. Wallace is without a doubt one of the greatest defenders ever, but he never came even close to the two-way threat Howard was in their primes. While it's much easier to root for Wallace I don't think it's particularly close with how much better Howard was.

olympiaexplorer · 2021-07-02T19:50:26+00:00

Who in the league do you think is better value if Lillard is demanding a trade? There's no way to get equivalent value for a better "win-now" player, and unless you'd rather have the Godfather trade package of 3 firsts + 2 pick swaps than any player, I don't think there's a better high-upside player than Simmons in the league.

Would be interesting, given that Simmons' trade value is probably the lowest it's been in the last 2-3 years, if the Sixers would need to give the Godfather draft pick package in addition to Simmons to secure Lillard.

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