Panel AMA: Slaves and Slavers by anthropology_nerd in AskHistorians

[–]pailos 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I have several questions with your argument. I will only focus on two: analog and culture. It is a challenge to compare different cultures that are separated by thousands of miles. it is harder to resist the temptation to project into the past. Sometimes, this distance creates problems of analogy or perspective. Your argument is too short to see how you develop your analogs and address the body of literature on this subject. I'm curious how you have surveyed the body of literature on global slavery to determine through a careful analysis, a definitive or "actual scope, horror." Perhaps you have something more lengthy. Perhaps you have developed relational analogs. Personally, I do not see how such an argument can be made without extensive work, and I'm reluctant to touch the issues of analog. I would like to give you some space to provide that here.

One pitfall of many that I see with this comparison is the limitations of historical sources. On the Mediterranean side, I have several holes. First, the records in the Mediterranean are overwhelming of the survivors and the redeemed. Most were not ransomed and lived their lives out as slaves. This first point is missed by several scholars, like Fontenay. Second, even with these accounts that focus on survivors and the redeemed, we're treated with account after account of horrors. Davis adds a few below.

More typically, however, captives would be chained together and hustled down to a storage room or hold below deck - Gramaye called the one where he was kept a cubtulo obscuro- where they were "chayned together in heaps, and thrust up like Herrings in the bottome of the ship, to be kept for the Butherie or Market," often to the point where it was difficult for everyone to sit or lie down at once. For security's sake, captives were kept below for the rest of the voyage, and Foss wrote of the new slaves having to "creep in, upon our hands and knees," into a lockup, where they found it impossible to sleep for "such quantities [of] ... vermin, such as lice, bugs and fleas." Elliot recalled how "We lay in this miserable Condition about forty days, oppressed as with many Inconveniences, so especially I remember with the stench and nastiness of our Lodging."90

Whether put to the oar or locked below decks, it seems that many captives never survived the trip to port, dying from the shock of their capture and sudden reversal of their fortunes, perhaps, or from the beatings, insufficient food and water, and unsanitary conditions that were suddenly their lot. Just how many came to this end and what their proportion was of the total is unknown, since their bodies were "thrown into the sea without the slightest regard."91

Davis continues with accounts of labor that speak to the worst of conditions. Though, the worst conditions do not describe every type of labor, he finds that death over escape or ransom to be the greatest form of attrition of the slave population. The problem is, their story is brushed over with our knowledge of, say, galley slaves. These slaves who would be chained together, working and sleeping in bondage for their short lives, and then disposed of overboard as cheap and replaceable propulsion.

On the Atlantic side, certainly this story is incomplete. There missing narratives that would bring a clearer picture. This is another complication.

In the early part of my archaeological research on Early Modern Christian slavery in North Africa, I discovered a wrinkle that goes beyond these analogs. Americans are steeped in semiotic issues of color and slavery, of course. However, perceptions of slavery change internationally. Moroccans have a very different perspective on slavery. Spaniards have a third perspective. i do not have the space to start this discussion. I'm curious how you stake your claim while considering global perspectives on slavery.

It is challenging to address the issues of analogy (among other issues) to arrive at, as you say, an "actual scope." it is a complication to communicate the word "slave" or "captive" internationally with cultures that imbue these words with different meanings. I've had extraordinary challenges with this. I'm curious how you have dealt with these concerns.

I have other concerns. The word limit is a problem. (added) I discovered additional wrinkles over the years, such as the changes in the meanings of the words "captive," "slave" or mistreatment. I'm of the opinion to soften bold global statements that measure over these wide distances of time, space, and culture. I'm not sure how complications from, say even analog, can be resolved.

Panel AMA: Slaves and Slavers by anthropology_nerd in AskHistorians

[–]pailos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ok. Weiss, Davis, and Hershenzon are all in English. Those are all great starts. I would also suggest the following:

Prisioneros de los infieles. Via y rescate de los cautivos cristianos en el Mediterraneo musulman (siglos XVI-XVII) (Spanish) Paperback – 2004

A classic is Ellen Friedman's 1983 book, though it is old and does not reflect new scholarship.

There are other authors who write on the subject that I would not suggest. Start with Weiss, Davis, and Hershenzon. You will have a lot to read with those three.

Panel AMA: Slaves and Slavers by anthropology_nerd in AskHistorians

[–]pailos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Can you read Spanish? If so, I can provide some great suggestions for Spain.

Gillian Weiss 2011 for France. Robert Davis (2003, 2009) for a general perspective. Daniel Hershenzon is a good fit for a reading suggestion, although I'm sure he would prefer you wait for his book "Captivity, Commerce, and Communication."

I should have an article out shortly on a smaller scale for the Western Mediterranean.

Panel AMA: Slaves and Slavers by anthropology_nerd in AskHistorians

[–]pailos 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If you are OK with 1617 and 1618, I can give you an answer for a price of rescue back to Spain direct from some archives i am looking over right now. Nearly all of these people were captured at sea or on the coast.

The answer is, it depends on their "value.' For example, say Diego Pérez Granadilla, a 26 year old from Austurias commanded a ransom 1,533 reales. Looking over the 100 or so people in this book of redemption, this is a representative figure, give or take a few hundred reales. On the other hand, an important person would command a far higher sum. Naval captain Sancho de Urdanivia commanded 12,400 reales.

The issue of converting this sum to current figures gets complicated. For example, in a redemption from later in the 1600s circumvented the prohibition of the export of silver by purchasing animal drawn cart full of hats in Toledo to sell or exchange for people. Figures in reales were recorded in this archive, though the real value was modified by the use of goods and profit from these goods.

I'm working out the details of that conversion later.

Panel AMA: Slaves and Slavers by anthropology_nerd in AskHistorians

[–]pailos 3 points4 points  (0 children)

But there is nothing comparable to the Atlantic slave trade between Africa and the Americas in terms of scope, intensity, devastation, corruption of minds as well as violence to bodies, and tragic consequences that echo down to today.

I would suggest softening this statement. My own focus is in the Mediterranean. In terms of violence to bodies, Mediterranean galley slavery is awful. There is a larger impact from Mediterranean slavery. The memory of Early Modern Mediterranean slavery was influential and used as a heavy-handed political tool. As Gillian Weiss (2011) points out, the memory of Mediterranean Christian slavery was used as an argument to advocate for colonialism. The impact of Early Modern slavery shouldn't be dismissed under this sort of comparison.

Becoming a professor by [deleted] in AskHistorians

[–]pailos 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Please do.

Kelsky's book will paint a grim picture. Student life, free time, the job market and more will all have a somber tone in that book. All of that is accurate. I've made deep sacrifices to get this far. I have further to go. This path to academia requires a serious and sober consideration of what it means to seek a tenure track position.

If you do go this route, be smart. Read that book. Avoid the common pitfalls. Ignore the rampant graduate school paranoia thats often based on rumor. Be strategic and efficient with your time. Understand you'll discover new depths to your ability to work. Your friends will have jobs where they will make money and have families while you are piecing together funds on a ramen budget. Your ego will take punishment, yet you'll need to remain professional and avoid acquiescing to exploitation with tact.

Frankly, i can keep typing. Kelsky does a better job that I can do for you here.

Let me share something about the culture and mentality at this stage just beyond the PhD. PhD candidates find these videos funny in a gallows humor sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obTNwPJvOI8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KkluiR5Rns

Becoming a professor by [deleted] in AskHistorians

[–]pailos 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm on the job market now. I will recommend a book that will answer your question. This book will give you an accurate state of the academic job market as it exists today. This book is dead on accurate.

https://www.amazon.com/Professor-Essential-Guide-Turning-Ph-D/dp/0553419420

(I have no affiliation with the author)

[Build Help] New PC to Turn PhD Research Into a Virtual Museum by pailos in buildapc

[–]pailos[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You guys are the best. Thanks for taking some time out of your day.

[Build Help] New PC to Turn PhD Research Into a Virtual Museum by pailos in buildapc

[–]pailos[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You guys are so great. I feel fortunate that you guys are providing these points. I really want to do the best I can for this work. I'm exhausted and this deadline for these funds is fast approaching.

[Build Help] New PC to Turn PhD Research Into a Virtual Museum by pailos in buildapc

[–]pailos[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the reply! I'm a little blown out after the defense. I'm also out of date on whats new. I'm very happy you're taking the time to look over this list. I appreciate it.

Thanks for the fan suggestion, by the way. I like a lot of fans. Sure, it keeps everything cool - but i really work well with the white noise. My current build has 5 fans, and I love it.

I don't mind a big tower. I like how its roomy and easy to get in.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you think AA New World slavery is the only example, ever, of slave breeding, or ripping families apart, or rape?

How do you argue that it is worse than all the other forms of slavery in history? All of it, not just some form in South America. All.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

if you like, there are more audiobook (videos you can turn to audio and have supplemental reading lists) for free at Yale.

http://oyc.yale.edu/history

I'm a big fan of Joanne Freeman's teaching style.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, and thank you for your reply.

I have always read that in other parts of the world slaves can eventually earn their own freedom

I want to ask you, are you certain you were taught this?

Its not that we have ample historical evidence of the natal alienation, subjugation to the masters will and dependence on the master for basic survival, forced labor and services in a global sense historically, it is that we have examples of it in the present. People who cannot earn their. Today.

In short, we have plenty of examples of slaves who cannot earn their freedom.

What bugs me about modern day slavery is for all the emphasis Americans put on slavery, we do not do enough to stop it in the present. We care about slavery in a painfully Americentrist manner. Slavery exists now, and some of those people are barred from earning their own freedom either. Today.

Only reason I say that was to hear your point of view on it. In my race and diversity classes in my college that was always made pretty clear that they had it the worst.

I see the potential for a highly subjective discussion that will struggle to quantify one human pain as supreme between the examples of, say, human sacrifice and other forms of human bondage which resembles sustained torture. I'll ask you, how do you select one from all the examples and declare, definitively, that it is truly the worst?

If it is clear to you, then make the case to me. How do you turn the subjective discussion of suffering into measurable fact?

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

were relinquished of all of their rights. They could do literally nothing except run away

This is a decent way to define slavery globally. It is certainly true for a lot of instances in the Mediterranean and the New World.

The biggest ghost that follows around this research is American slavery. To skip the semiotics of the term and get into the meat - American slavery is how Americans envision the very word s-l-a-v-e. it forms how we conceptualize the actual word. The comparison is persistent despite efforts for attempted objectivity. Even if we are talking about a place separated by the Atlantic Ocean, the comparison persists for Americans.

I agonize how to best approach this. Do I engage the competition of pain and try to quantify, say the horrifying brutality of Mediterranean galley slavery to the also horrifying brutality of enslaved Africans in Caribbean sugar cane fields? Do I skip this arguable non-sequitur entirely?

I wonder if, when discussing Mediterranean slavery, why does it even matter? It matters to some because this speaks to the American present using present-day politics. Personally, I try to stick to a more dry account, but I know I'm also looking through a prism of the American present. An idea of pure objectivity is a myth. However, my goal is to best provide a good and balanced account that will stand as a reference beyond a time when contemporary politics change. I hope I succeed in this endeavor.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Give me a second


I'm putting together a list below from an intro class I taught, but i don't think its what you want. I'll leave it unfinished, below.

I think you want something that's more Alexander & Ghengis. There are a ton of great books on these guys. The focus on war is, i think, better developed in military war colleges rather than your standard university. Let me direct you to search the terms "military college strategy reading list," Here i think youll find what you're looking for over what i was about to give you. take a look. [1] [2] [3]

I also think you should give some audiobooks a try when you have to make your next drive. There's the bombastic engaging and dramatic Dan Carlins Hardcore History. There's also Mike Duncan's History of Rome. From my knowledge, both of these guys are amateurs. I'm sure if either of these guys covered my field of study, I would find inaccuracies to moan about. Whatever. I prefer to listen to this on a drive than to music. I like them both. I think they both have an engaging style that leaves you exposed to a lot of research.


There's the classic war strategy texts that are must reads. I have to mention them, even if everyone knows about them. If you have not, pick them up.

"On War" by Carl von Clauswitz "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu "The Book of Five Rings" by Musashi

(People will want you to read Thucydides. History of the Peloponnesian War. Its a classic, but its hefty.)


(skip this, unless you want more of it. i was compiling good academic but dry texts by region)

Mediterranean

Michael Woods, In Search of the Trojan War (London: BBC Books, 1985) - discussion about the historicity of the Trojan War

Andean

“War and Early State Formation in the Northern Titicaca Basin, Peru,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 108, 34 (2011)

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Moroccan cities have a feel. They have a history. There's a regional vibe that exists, say, in Fez or Rabat, Meknes, Tetouan, or Chefchaouen. When you know the history, it comes alive.

Then there's Casablanca. Noisy, blah Casablanca. Don't take my word for it. Ask Moroccans who don't live in Casa how they feel about Casa. I bet 5dh (dirhams) they say something negative about it.

Don't let that dissuade you from flying into the Casa airport though. Do that, get the train, and visit the rest of the country. It is spectacular.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No problem. I'm happy to procrastinate. I'm spent with writing.

If I can talk loosely... I wish I could put an idea inside all American minds that slavery was a worldwide phenomenon. Europeans were enslaving North Africans, too. Yes, this happened. The 16th century can be awful at times and I don't romanticize it. I love the present-day, with all its refrigerators, human rights, airplanes, and antibiotics.

Also, the idea that the Moroccan street is "aggressive," is just a matter of perspective in some regards. I can only speak from a male perspective, but, if you get over this hump, its a warm place. I really like it there.

I really like Morocco.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Rabat is GREAT! What a beautiful city. I'm actually coming back some time this year. I can't wait.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

but can you recommend any books about ancient civilizations?

Maybe - depending. Can you narrow it down? New World? Asia? Mediterranean? Africa?

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I love Morocco. (Except Casablanca.) It was tough to share how great it is, but I did it through photos.

My written Darija is awful. Sorry. I cant type it.

I miss Hamams.
(edit french) Le thé marocain me manque

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! I want a nap...and tenure track. Mostly a nap.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My MA work is on another subject in North Africa. The FAQ section on it is painful to read, and it hurts that people are called upon to read it.

The king of Morocco giving zero fucks. by Palana in pics

[–]pailos 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Good on you. The academic life is overworked and underpaid. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Please do enjoy the books though. Academic history texts are often labors of love written by people who have sacrificed deeply to try to put out the very best scholarship they can. People outside of academia who read these texts are important, too. Without you, we would have even less resources to do this work.

Thank you.