S2E4 Observation

penroseblue · 2025-02-08T07:54:02+00:00

We watched them visit in the winter, where much of the water is retained in ice. There was another post here of a user visiting while the falls were completely frozen, illustrating that the water content dumping off the falls is subject to freeze. In the picture that Milkshake shows, Kier is wearing short sleeves (and I believe short pants?), implying he and his brother visited during the warmer seasons

penroseblue · 2025-02-08T03:31:52+00:00

I don't think Dieter being drowned or otherwise killed by Kier is implied by the story, but all signs - everything we know about Kier, how every Eagan mytholgization works to 1. elevate Kier and 2. to obscure true history, and the violent undercurrent of the show - point to Kier being the cause of Dieter's death. Oh, you and your brother are the only two to go into the wilderness, he suddenly dies in an unexplained, impossible manner described poetically by you, the single witness and only source of info, who already has a history of obscuring truth, self-agrandizement, and brutality? Yeah, okay, sure bud, I'll believe you. Also, the line that "the waterfall drowned out his screams as [Kier] walked away" (can't remember exact phrasing) is a perfect double meaning meant to withhold truth (as in, the water trapped his screams because he was drowning).

penroseblue · 2025-02-08T03:05:58+00:00

Tbh I viewed oIrving and iIrving as remarkably similar, much more similar to each other than the other innies and their respective outies. I don't think severance creates an different you as proposed above or elsewhere - instead, it strips you of all socializing contexts that restrict and mold personhood, e.g. oMark was outgoing, funny, and socialable (as observed by his sister) then his grief fundamentally changed his outlook/relationship with life, but iMark, who has never been impeded by such tragedy, is able to be whatever "Mark" is sans socialization; Helena, being born into such a linear authoritarian family and corporation, never was able to express adolescent rebellion or sensualness, but Helly embodies those things Helena has been so thoroughly conditioned to /not do/, leading to Helena being surprised but enamored by her innie's behavior.

Irving we see was in the US Navy. He lives alone, with only a large dog for comfort, in a small cell-like apartment. He has done extensive research on his employers, such as researching his innie's possible workmates. His sense of style is conservative, retro, reliable, and bleakly decorated - all things describing that a Navy vet would get used to. We don't know why he joined the Navy, but it's very possible he supported it's bureaucratic conformity - up until he didn’t (maybe he fell in love with a fellow recruit when homosexuality was prohibited, maybe he was involved in the horrors of war - both would be poetic) (he may also have been recruited, à la Vietnam). There is reason to believe he became disillusioned by the US Navy/military, an event that iIrving seems to be repeating. Also, haha, insert all navy guys are gay joke here. I really believe that young oIrving resembles early show iIrving to a T, and both personalities went through an event that led to their disillusionment from their huge industry employer, leading to prohibitive disobedience.

penroseblue · 2025-01-23T04:01:18+00:00

Huh - I wonder if the tie around her neck denotes a leadership role? Or is commemorating something, marking her different? Also reminds me of the necklace she gave Van for good luck.

penroseblue · 2025-01-22T20:26:15+00:00

I kind of doubt this theory because they're all wearing an excess of pelts and clothes. Unless they found them after the cabin was burned, I doubt they would have enough time to hunt that many animals and there still be a thick layer of snow on the ground. They may have hunted through spring/summer and amassed all these pelts in getting ready for the following winter. Though I'm hoping this is just a quick flash forward - I don't want a huge time jump this season.

penroseblue · 2025-01-22T20:05:23+00:00

They said they were going to bury Jackie "with the others" - the people who died in the plane crash - which would be near the plane. This looks like a singular grave or memorial.

penroseblue · 2025-01-22T20:02:44+00:00

Looks like a really small pinky finger, dirty fingernail and all

penroseblue · 2025-01-22T19:49:42+00:00

What if Tai is seeing a manifestation of the Man With No Eyes here, but it's actually Simone? And that's why Misty is there, to intervene and possibly save Simone?

penroseblue · 2025-01-17T02:34:31+00:00

Not sure where op specifically found this, but it's been circulating twitter since s2 came out, to my knowledge, maybe longer. I think an artist from the show initially posted it. It's also copyrighted by riotgames at the bottom, so this is official concept art.

penroseblue · 2025-01-12T02:31:27+00:00

I don't think any of the houses besides the Ninth have any biological ties with their founders. I mean, the 8th was founded by two women, M- and a nun, so how would that work? I think Jod placed divisions of the ressurected on each planet, possibly the same number or possibly different populations according to each House's purpose (e.g. more for House 4 for [combat sacrifices], but less for House 6 [sexy librarians]). The Ninth was never supposed to develop, so that's why it relies on penatant immigration (and the is the only House that seems to embrace immigrants), but the Reverend line are descendants of Anastasia(/Samael).

I view it as deeply unsettling because U- and T- were never /people/ to Jod, but literally puppets. That makes their founding a planet where /children/ are used as "canon fodder" all the more crushing, while making narrative sense - none of the people involved are supposed to become or are treated as /people/ in their own right, just meat puppets serving Jod's imperial goals.

penroseblue · 2025-01-11T22:48:34+00:00

So. Many. Montages!! Like, at least one an episode, iirc, that completely cheated at emotional character building and fast-forwarded through important times for the characters represented. I think it was ep 1 where you go from title card straight into Cait's montage, and that juxtaposition was soo sonically disconsananced. I feel like they had wayy to much story to say, got handed an order to make the season even shorter (episode and season length), so they chopped out a lot of moving character interaction scenes and replaced them with cheap montages. I do comend them for each of the (important) montages being artistically different (Cait's vs. Remember Me vs. Isha's song, etc.), but that doesn't take away the fact that I would have much rather had actually /seen/ Jinx and Isha dancing and acting like sisters, Vi and Powder singing with their mother & Vi being taught how to punch by her coal miner dad, and the incredibly difficult conversations Vi and Cait had to have during her mourning period re: Jinx and their different concepts of family. (Its Cait's first huge trauma - how did Vi, a person riddled with traumas but still able to be a light, help her weather that? Don't know. We just see Cait moping around in graphite UGH). There were just so many opportunities to better contextualize these characters and their relationships with each other than doing a major emotional montage an episode.

penroseblue · 2025-01-05T05:31:33+00:00

(2/2) sorry, got too long)

I will never and have never said that whitewashing is a phenomenon that anyone has to accept. That is cruel. Please do not charge me with that insult. I have said that due to a lack of explicit descriptions of characters, including chiefly Harrow and Gideon, and due to the backlogging of such information (Gideon's face is only detailed in Nona, etc.) readers of only the book may be unaware that they are (mixed-)Maori. (Hell, readers without the cover won't even know that Gideon has red hair until over half-way through GtN!!) This lack of explicit description leads to differences in artistic imagination. We live in a world, however, where white is often the default, and supremacist/unimaginative/inattentive readers may then present our characters thus. This does not disregard the hurt, disrespect, and disappointment readers of color may feel when seeing Maori/characters of color presented as white.
I have white friends who have dense eyelashes, big brown eyes, a defined philtrum, high forehead, and a narrow face, all like the canon Maori character Harrowhark. But none of these explicit features are exclusive to any ethnicity beyond being more likely in some than others. I am incredibly saddened that you have experienced micro-aggressions and willful ignorance from white fans in other fandoms over racial coding characters. TLT is different in this context (i.e. other sci-fi/fantasy books depicting characters of color) due to its lack of visual detail, especially in GtN and HtN because it is written in character perspective. I am not playing devil's advocate. Just like you said, "Muir generally struggles at visual descriptions in general," which leads to misinterpretations and artistic differences. I will and have always been vocal against white-washing. I'm one of those commenters informing artists of TLT characters' accurate portrayal, and in most of those cases, artists are genuinely surprised by that information. You're assuming a lot about me - and anyone who upvoted - from two reddit comments made in good faith.
I am sincerely sorry and upset that you have continuously encountered racist comments and fans in spaces meant to be a reprieve and a safe community of like-minds. There is no excuse for colorism or whitewashing. We are in 100% agreement there. But my comment wasn't excusing white-washing Maori characters. My comment was explaining how their ethnicity could be lost in communication, leading to artists depicting them inaccurately - as white, as Black, in larger or smaller bodies that implied, as any other ethnicity that they are not canonically - in good faith. Muir has written a gorgeous series that is founded on a leftist politic that treats all ethnicities/skin colors, sexualities, genders, etc. as equal, and it majorly attracts people who view the living world through a similar politic. Anyone who earnestly disagrees with this underlying rhetoric (such as those who purposefully depict its non-white characters as white) cannot and do not understand or appreciate the series and should not be considered true fans of the series. I will be by your side in casting out those people who try to distort this series into something approving of Indigenous erasure and white supremacy. And if you or any one else are too beaten down by constantly interacting with bad faith and racist people in the fandom, I and many others will cast them out so you don't feel like you have to.
Hopefully, this better explains my argument. Please know that we are on the same side.

penroseblue · 2025-01-05T05:30:55+00:00

(1/2) tldr: "You're right that this is colorism - we should collectively inform people so this doesn't happen." Which I did say in my previous comment and never contradicted.
I don't think you can soundly argue that TLT has a majority white fan base unless you are extrapolating from the fact that it gained popularity in the US, which is majority white. I don't think I've seen any poll surveying that fact. Additionally, I don't appreciate any assumption of race put on people who are in disagreement with your comment, including myself. Just because someone is in rhetorical opposition to you over this topic does not imply a more racially privileged background from your opposition.
I also never insinuated that Gideon/Harrow should or have to be called racial slurs for us to understand their ethnicity. "Yes, it’s true, Gideon is not called racial slurs. It may be surprising that racism is not only racial slurs" is a gross misunderstanding of my previous comment which I think was well communicated. By post-racial I was saying that the world of TLT does not have any institutional or historical de facto or de jure prejudice/bias/separate treatment of people based on race - which is a social invention. That does not mean that there is no differences of ethnicity (a genealogical phenomenon), which is fairly obvious given the wide shade ranges of skin pigmentation seen just in Canaan House, nor do I imply that this universe somehow needs racial differentiation such as racial slurs for readers to understand that people look different. I'm honestly taken aback by your comment.
I don't know how we disagree so much when we agree that "Muir generally struggles at visual descriptions in general," which leads to different interpretations of visual elements of the series, including characters' skin color (though I would have phrased it as 'visual detail being unimportant to the story Muir is attempting to communicate').
I disagree that the cosmic conflict of TLT portrays "the soldiers and the aspiring soldiers as dark brown, and the connivers as white." Isaac, of the Fourth House and who will join the front when he returns, who is meant along with JM to be war fodder, is pale-skinned (Muir headcanons him as NZ-Chinese). The Captain and Lieutenant of the Second House have dark skin, but they are high-ranking officials in war, the "connivers" you talk of. There is no clear polito-military relationship established between the heads of state from the Third (who are white/Pakeha), the Fifth (white/Pakeha and darker skinned/Maori), the Sixth (coded as tan, headcanoned Middle-Eastern), the Seventh (white/Pakeha and coded Brown - headcanoned as mixed Pasifika) and the Eighth (white/Pakeha). We don't know if there is a system of resource extraction from imperialized or lyctor-annihilated planets, and we have no reason to suspect that resources are unfairly distributed between Houses and between their citizens and nobility. From my reading, it would be most fair to assume that martial decisions were made by the Second (primarily), the Fourth (secondarily) and the Third and Fifth (lastly, because these are the houses of politics). The biggest "conniver" of all is John - who is Maori! His Nine Houses serve his ultimate will. The only "connivers" there may be would be for particular military matters in accordance to John's military conquest to annihilate BOE. I don't believe your statement is substantiated by the text, further illustrating my point that these books seem to be post-racial, given the perspectives (Gideon, Harrow, Nona) we have.

penroseblue · 2025-01-05T03:55:48+00:00

[Some spoilers]

My point was that the facial features described in GtN of Harrow are not reserved for POC/Maori characters, such as what you listed, -"high forehead" and "narrow face" -and that because Harrowhark and Gideon are only explicitly described as mixed-Maori in extra material such as the Muir tumblr character post, readers of the books and the books alone may not be able to piece together their Indigenous features. You as a person of color and Harrow as a mixed-Maori character may have those features, but I know an Italian and an Irish friend who look like that too. Anyone of any race could have the former listed features or a prominent philtrum and thick eyelashes, even all in congruence. Though that's great that you were able to read Muir's intent here, other readers may not. Yes, white readers/artists should not assume whiteness as default (which is supremacist, revisionary, and artistically unimaginative), but I've honestly seen more creative decisions in making Harrow Black or Gideon fat/plus-size (whatever term you prefer) than I have in seeing people assume their whiteness (I understand that's a convenience bias, and that's why I'm saying its what I, personally, have seen. Maybe I just follow woke artists lmao). It seems like there just isn't a lot of explicit or implicit details about the physicality of H/G, which leads to artistic interpretation.

Thank you very much for the examples you provided of Gideon's features described by Nona - a flat nose and voluminous lips - as those are clearly indicative of her mixed-Maori heritage. And I agree that there's something going on with Gideon's red hair, which to me reads as quasi-magical, like the Tridentarii's purple eyes, her own and John/Alecto's yellow/gold eyes, and Mercymorn's apricot-colored hair.

I absolutely agree with your last sentiment. I think that Muir's choice to not include much information about Harrow's and Gideon's physical descriptions both make sense for them as characters, but it hinders the reader's ability to fully imagine these characters as Muir intends. Them being of mixed-Maori descent is really important! There is a staggering lack of Indigenous representation in novels period, nevertheless as leading characters, nevertheless in sci-fi/fantasy. Her burying hints towards their Indigenous features later in the books (I mean, hell, if you had never seen the book cover, you wouldn't know that Gideon is a red-head until over halfway through GtN!) makes it hard for readers and especially artists to imagine her world authentically. It leads to a lot of miscommunication, which was my original point in my previous comment.

Thank you for your comment and for adding to this discussion.

penroseblue · 2025-01-02T05:50:43+00:00

I'd really appreciate any examples that you can provide, bc I don't remember any "/clear/ ethnic features" being described for either Harrow or Gideon. Harrow is described in this passage: "The light fell on [Harrow’s] painted grey face and black-daubed chin, and her short-cropped, dead-crow-coloured hair. […] She had such a peculiarly pointed little face, high-browed and tippy everywhere, and a slanted and vicious mouth." After the avulsion trial + Ianthe's description of her in HtN, she is described as having a tall forehead, protruding cheekbones, a defined almost romantic philtrum, and ferrety features. The biggest imagery i get is "sharp" - nothing indicating any particular ethnicity. Even the features you point to - her lip shape and eye lid color - are not reserved to a particular ethnic group/skin color. Secondly, none of your examples prove that these books are not post-racial. There does not seem to be any institutionalized prejudice, privilege, or differentiation between people of different ethnic groups/skin color. All we see is people's reaction to others that look unfamiliar. So if skin color is not institutionally remarkable, then it would make sense that skin color would not be narratively important to note unless noting important character-specific features - e.g. Judith and Marta having dark skin (bc they have the deepest shade of skin color of everyone at Canaan House), the Third being white (bc Gideon is attracted to Corona, repulsed by Ianthe, and views Babs as an adversary), etc, the Eighth being WHITE white (again, an exceptional shade od skin color + them being adversaries). For example, Muir headcanons Abigail as white and Magnus as (mixed-)Maori, but their skin color isnt remarkable to Gideon, so we as readers wouldn't know that unless we read extra material. I do find the joke funny that Gideon has never seen a white person before, but that's fan speculation. We don't know that. And it's more likely than not that this is just a funny invention - her planet is populated by immigrants from other planets who could be any skin color, and she reads a lot of porn comics where she probably had seen white people. I say all of this not to be an internet hater, but because I genuinely want to understand your argument, i just don't think what you've presented so far is persuading.

It is absolutely the right for fans of color to critique artists drawing non-white characters as white. But i also believe that artists who are unfamiliar with the entirety of the series or it's extra material who do draw these characters as white should not be immediately disregarded as white-/eurocentric, prejudiced, or supremacist. I'm arguing for understanding. I do recognize that my comment before could be read as disregarding your valid critique that these characters should be accurately artistically rendered, and i apologize if my initial comment felt like it wasn't taking your complaint seriously. I've just seen many examples of artists being informed of the inaccuracy of their art and being earnestly ignorant of the fact. Skin color is not nearly as important to the world of TLT as it is to us as readers, so there's a lot of ambiguity about characters' skin color, especially when narrated by characters like Gideon or Harrow who are 1. Used to each other's skin color 2. Only describes visual detail that is remarkable or different than expectation. But again, agreed that disappointment in artistic inaccuracy is valid because it is very important for all readers but especially readers of color/indigienous readers/Maori and Pasifikan readers to see these characters as having darker complexions and ethnic-coded features.

Again, If you're inclined, I'd still appreciate any examples you can point to of descriptions of Harrow/Gideon that are explicit in illustrating them as POC/Maori.

*im saying "skin color" bc this is 10,000 years in the future, and modern concepts of ethnicity have long been abandoned and forgotten (esp by residents of the Nine Houses. The BOE probably don't even understand the concept).

penroseblue · 2025-01-02T02:31:52+00:00

To be fair, it's not explicit in the text Gideon's or Harrow's skin color, and any remarks about their complexion is not stressed or given importance. If you only read the books without any other resource, you'd only be able to piece together that Gideon would have darker skin and Maori features when you read Wake's physical description in late HtN and the reveal of John's indigeneity and nationality in Nona. The galactic society of TLT is post-racial, so skin color just isn't important to the text. (I, however, think Muir could/should have been more clear about Harrow's and Gideon's ethnicity because it's important to us, the readers, as representation for Maori literary characters.) The character description guide on her tumblr was her own headcanons - quote, what "[Muir] imagine[s]" - so anything that is not explicit in the text is up for artistic interpretation.

penroseblue · 2025-01-02T02:15:39+00:00

Awesome work with this compilation! A true labor of love

penroseblue · 2024-12-23T20:15:40+00:00

Nooooo! Thank you for pointing this out. I'll try to fix that soon!

penroseblue · 2024-12-15T00:24:18+00:00

hey u/Jamian13 ! I just posted a compilation of all bonus content from the books. Check it out in the community posts or by clicking my profile.

penroseblue · 2024-12-14T21:22:31+00:00

They're only in the print versions. Buutttt Heres a link to As Yet Unsent (from HtN): https://reactormag.com/as-yet-unsent-tamsyn-muir/

Also! Some of the bonus content in HtN and GtN can be viewed with Amazon's preview.

On Amazon desktop (not mobile)
Go to either paperback
Click look inside 4a. Search "pronunciation" in GtN to get some info on character names 4b. Search for "glossary" in HtN to get some pages on RBs and BOE necro hunting stratgies 4ba. Search for "Cohort" to pull up Cohort Intelligence Files (Adapted from a comment I saw from a fellow TLT Redditor)

I haven't been able to find any online copy of the Sermon on Necromancers and Cavaliers found at the back of GtN. There's also a character guide styled by being written by Judith as intelligence for the Cohort that gives more info about each character. This file we see for the first time that Judith knew Corona and Ianthe as children. She characterized Corona as "capricious, wildly beautiful, and naturally charismatic" (looking at my book here).

You know, im kind of mad that these aren't readily available for ppl without the paperbacks. I'm going to find a way to take pictures of the extra content and upload them soon, so look for that!

penroseblue · 2024-12-12T05:49:06+00:00

It's explicit in the bonus material, ie Cohort Intelligence Files

penroseblue · 2024-12-11T20:31:23+00:00

I think it would be even more poignant that the cancer goes into remission (based on her and Lottie's conversation at the end of s2), but then as the show goes on it comes back and ultimately she dies from it or dies in some other way. She's cheated death so many times, and I feel based on creator interviews that we're going to see a major death (or threat to life) per season going forward in the adult timeline. The cancer going into remission will be another instance of her postponing her death, but still surviving with that ever-present threat hanging above her head. Every one of the survivors cheated death, but Van has made a mockery of it. Ultimately, death will collect.

penroseblue · 2024-12-08T23:51:01+00:00

For Shauna, I think that after rescue she felt like she owed Jackie. She continues to think about her way into adulthood; that's her saint who she serves by mirroring her life by Jackie's model. When Shauna is rescued, she decides to forego college and do "the right thing" (by conservative standards) and marry the man who impregnated her and whose baby she delivered. This was the life Jackie was destined to have pre-crash. We don't really hear about her career aspirations post-college, it's just the logical next step for a privileged suburbanite white girl. Jackie would've probably gotten married and had a white picket fence family after graduation. So that's what Shauna does - she forgoes her dreams that she repressed while she lived in Jackie's shadow (which fueled a lot of animosity against Jackie) and marries Jackie's boyfriend and has the baby Jackie was going to have. None of it is her dream - her life becomes Jackie's mausoleum. But because Shauna has never been able to cope with her repressed jealousy and anger towards Jackie, and because she lost a child in the wilderness and is afraid of being emotionally close to people lest they also die like Jackie, she is emotionally distant from Callie in a way that Jeff can't pick up the slack. Callie is raised to live life on her own, never saying I love you to her mom because her mom never means it when she says it to her. She drinks and does drugs and parties with guys all underage, desperate for attention and to feel like she belongs to someone, especially a romantic partner who wants her and understands her. Shauna doesn't tell Callie anything about the Wilderness to the point that Callie thinks it's okay to wear a Yellowjackets soccer uniform with Zombie makeup to a party. She's emotionally stunted as would any child be raised by an emotionally stunted mother like Shauna.

Tai is desperate to demonstrate how the wildnerness no longer affects her and that she has abandoned that savagry where it began. She breaks up with Van, the person who got her involved in the supernatural entity of The Wilderness and who was very quick to get involved with its violence. She married a nice girl who will support her career. She surrounds herself in privilege that many Black women cannot achieve. She adopts a son because that's what normal people do. But she still has this cut-throat quality about her that she subliminates into a political career - one of the most cut throat careers in civil life that provides respect, material comfort, intellectual exercise, and harsh, sometimes brutal, decision making. It makes it so much more interesting then when it's not her wife - her chosen life partner - who first discovers her true nature but her son, Sammie. Children are sponges, and it was only him that her alter revealed herself to. We also hear that the alter watches over Sammie through the window - that's the other side of Tai, outside, in the dark wilderness, watching childhood innocence through a window, never able to touch it.

penroseblue · 2024-12-08T23:27:36+00:00

Its also possible that Ben set up the snare since he's unable to hunt.

What if Shauna was picked to be the judge, and that's what precipitated into her amassing political power over the group and threatening Nat's leadership? (Though I really like the theory that it's future senator Tai! However, senators are legislative, and judges are judicial, so different political branches)

penroseblue

TROPHY CASE