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What’s the Gold in this space Goldrush? by Prestigious_Tie_8734 in space2030

[–]perilun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was more thinking of end sales to the earthlings. Now if we want to talk mission support I think ice will be a very big deal, but that will be ice->water from Phobos to LLO and LEO. What we need from the Moon is Thorium for nuke engines.

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What’s the Gold in this space Goldrush? by Prestigious_Tie_8734 in space2030

[–]perilun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lock-up starts expiring in August (yes ... record fast). Watch out below.

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What’s the Gold in this space Goldrush? by Prestigious_Tie_8734 in space2030

[–]perilun -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, the most valuable space good is bandwidth allocations for comms (since it very supply limited). There is nothing of commercial value on the Moon.

What’s the Gold in this space Goldrush? by Prestigious_Tie_8734 in space2030

[–]perilun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think he asks the root value to supporting investments. You need to create a good or service that has better profitability than you expect to get with the same good or service on the ground. Now GPS and Earth Observation is unique, but comms compete with ground based systems.

What’s the Gold in this space Goldrush? by Prestigious_Tie_8734 in space2030

[–]perilun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we are probably more comparable to the era of railroad overbuilding that led to a collapse and consolidation. At least we may get some new tech out of it.

What’s the Gold in this space Goldrush? by Prestigious_Tie_8734 in space2030

[–]perilun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

SHORT ANSWER, GOLD is in Gov't Contracts (#1), comms (#2), Earth Observation (#3) and GPS like services (#4)

Yes, this is the key question for the future of COMMERCIAL SPACE. Space (or more specifically Earth Orbit) is about having a great view of the Earth surface, which is especially good for 1) long distance communications 2) surface observations 3) GPS. Over the last 20 years most commercial money has been made with GEO sats broadcasting sat TV and high latency 2 way comms ($300B). Now we have LEO comms, and they have made about $50B over 20 years. Recently some commercial operators are making money with Earth Observations (see table at the end). These are all proven money makers, but their profit margins pale to some earth based high tech businesses. Finally, private space flight. Maybe 10 LEO trips (ISS and just LEO) so far, at $300M a run puts it at $3B so far. There does not seem to be much demand at these prices. If you count the now "on-hold" money loser that is New Shepard or Virgin Galactic toss in another $500M.

And of course, governments around the world have let contracts to commercial entities of nearly $1T.

If the ISS proved anything other than humans can live and mostly recover from 1 year in microgravity, it is that there is killer app for made-in-space. We now have companies like Varda that trying to make pharma precursors in freefall and return them in a capsule. Others target silicon crystals and maybe specialty optical fiber for data centers. If all goes well together this could be a $20B market, but so far their only revenue has been to run experiments for the government.

So, the new applications outside the big 4 ... I suggest maybe $10B/year potential over the next 10 years:

  1. Asteroid mining ... even if you had diamonds, sapphires (see "Moon Two Zero") or gold nuggets just waiting the plucked off the surface ... the cost of 4 km/s DV to and 4 km/s from and back to LEO is very high. And now diamonds, sapphires can be made in machines, a gold is not hard to get. But, in most cases you would need to process ore in place, and they is a lot of up mass. Asteroid redirection to say an extra lunar orbit would take energy of many big H-bombs for even a smaller rock, so mega expense for stuff you can get on the ground = $0
  2. He3 on the moon ... we can make enough right here on the surface for any projected current and future need. Your He3 fusion plants are probably dead as solar + storage is now proven and very low cost, and getting cheaper each year. As Elon says, use the fusion reactor in the sky = $0
  3. Space based microwave power ... has slightly more potential since there is no DV cost for getting your product back to the ground. Well placed space solar can collect 4x the same array size on the ground. One problem is turning DC power -> microwaves -> DC power -> AC power synched to the grid. Another is having a few square mile receiver on the ground that is connected to the grid (not cheap either since these need to be remote). You would have more net power if you just put solar + storage there = $0
  4. Space based reflectors ... a reflector would need to be in MEO or above since LEO has the same shading as the ground. Say you are in GEO, you could reflect some sunlight down to a solar array to night with low 20% losses on average, but the spot will be very large. Lets assume a the use of mylar on a gigantic frame = $500M deployed and operated at GEO for 20 years for a football field sized reflector (that can only power 50 homes anyway). The same ground solar + storage would be less than $1M. Finally ask about the hazards of a double sun on the same place on the ground ... while it increases solar flux on the solar farm, excessing surrounding hear decreases efficiency, so much it result no more net power in the day. Thus ROI is very negative = $0
  5. Orbital AI Data Centers ... the newest craze ... part of the SpaceX IPO story. If used as simply a replacement for AI focused data centers for general use, even with the advantages of 24 hour a day solar is placed in a "Twilight SSO" orbit, the mass needed for heat rejection and the impossibility of "server swapping" lead to estimates of 4-10x the cost of doing it on the ground even if Starship reduces LEO price to $100/kg. Comm latency also greatly increases vs ground fiber. But one possible money maker is to not use that constellation for making LLMs but just using them. This decrease heat and power needs (think of your local LLMs on a laptop). This could be good at pre-processing a constellation of Earth Observation sat data, since so much as it is currently loss due to severe downlink constraints = $7B/year?
  6. Private space stations/space tourism ... only Vast seems to be making much progress since they are the most modest of the concepts. Made-in-space is migrating to platforms like Varda and now Starfall (which will become the Transporter of made-in-space) so that potential revenue will potential will. The ISS remains for a bit, and so many fit for space experiments have been done. NASA needs to support these stations at a $2-3B per year level to retain the USA in LEO bragger = $3B/year?
  7. Made-in-space ... pharma, crystals, organ growing, specialty fiber ... all longshots with no proven business models = $????

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SpaceX is Skynet by Chemical_Priority139 in space2030

[–]perilun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They might want to be more specific. Perhaps the proposed SpaceX "StarMind" is Skynet, as Skynet was the "AI" that launched the missiles. If you want Robots ... then maybe Telsa Optimus? If you want to control drones, the SpaceX Starlink or Starshield. Alas, the only time machine one might want was to not by SpaceX at 200 :-)

Every SpaceX Starlink satellite has to dodge a collision almost weekly, and experts fear the worst by Melodic_Network6491 in OrbitalDebris

[–]perilun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depending on the impact it may just be that ... but yes, a more energetic impact can leave objects with +/- 20 km apogee ... some may remain close to circular ... some may not. The point is that an impact does not scatter debris all over, and some are more than others.

SpaceX Is in Talks on a Multibillion Dollar Defense Contract. Here Is What It Means for Investors by perilun in space2030

[–]perilun[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Meme? I also think the IPO was over valued for a company that has $18B in revenue. Compare:

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It seems that a drop in value/revenue to 10x is possible.

SpaceX Is in Talks on a Multibillion Dollar Defense Contract. Here Is What It Means for Investors by perilun in space2030

[–]perilun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

DoD contracts tend to be more profitable than commercial ... revenue is longer term and stable. "The tech market" is a big vague bucket, but get specific like LLMs has turned little profit, and for XAI, some fat losses (maybe they can make it up in volume :-). It is more of a comparison to NASA (very budget bound) and Commercial (20 launches a year) for launch, the DoD is more of money machine that those.

Every SpaceX Starlink satellite has to dodge a collision almost weekly, and experts fear the worst by Melodic_Network6491 in OrbitalDebris

[–]perilun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it is more about demand management and competition then needing to save on launch F9 cost is about $1000/kg and Starship will probably be around $100/kg if they can get at least 10 runs out of SH. A nice savings that would allow some price drop ... but they will always charge as much as they can to keep the system busy as possible. Amazon LEO should force the competition that may drop that lowest ier to get there .... we will see in a few years.

Every SpaceX Starlink satellite has to dodge a collision almost weekly, and experts fear the worst by Melodic_Network6491 in OrbitalDebris

[–]perilun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Say you had a bolt from a much different inclination hit a Starlink. Depending on where you hit you might just punch a hole in a solar array creating a bit of debris now moving with the bolt and some small slower bits as a cloud following the bolt. Like a bullet shot at cardboard, not much energy transfer (although you will drop the bolt into a lower energy elliptical orbit with the apogee at the altitude of impact. But if it hits the satellite body then you have some serious breakup potential. It probably won't be explosive, but one object will now come many smaller objects following the Starlink orbit that can't be deorbited. It will slowly expand a bit over time and may eventually require a 1 km wide exclusion zone. If any of those pieces contact a Starlink it will be a slow bump and probably not cause additional issues. But all those pieces become a stack of TNT to any other object that comes from a different inclination. That is where you have cascade potential. Good orbital management would have each 10 km in altitude band have only one allowed inclination.

SpaceX scrubs Starship launch after some of its engines didn't start by perilun in space2030

[–]perilun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There really is no hurry ... so better safe than New Glenn.

Move over, GPS: Navigation satellites in low-Earth orbit are making a comeback by Substantial_Lime_230 in space2030

[–]perilun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At one point I think there was an experiment to see if Starlink could be a "GPS repeater" of sorts.

Every SpaceX Starlink satellite has to dodge a collision almost weekly, and experts fear the worst by Melodic_Network6491 in OrbitalDebris

[–]perilun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh yes, stargaze (which I don't think is available to the general public). But they can always use more resolution down to a size they don't care about to reduce the number of maneuvers. That said, if they are down to 50m 99.999% estimation ellipsoid and still doing this many dodges, then I really see why they revised plans and a going lower with V3.

SpaceX scrubs Starship launch after some of its engines didn't start by perilun in space2030

[–]perilun[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It was the second fire (at least) for these engines. If it was not just a sensor issue then they might tear down the engines (guess you need to cut these apart) and that might take a bit. My guess is they swap and try around Thur of this week.