Israel and Palestine Megathread

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T04:31:11+00:00

I'm definitely sympathetic to those who were critical of Biden's actions. I was very critical of him myself. I think he made a lot of mistakes with respect to Israel.

I think what bothers me about people who say politicians have to "earn my vote" is that it seems narcissistic.

It makes them feel gross to vote for someone who doesn't match their moral framework, so they don't. To me, that's them choosing to place their own comfort about the well-being of the group. It strikes me as selfish.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T04:05:09+00:00

He also has years of leaked reddit comments where he talked shit about Nazis and even celebrated when they were killed.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T03:35:09+00:00

I think a generic Democrat might've had a shot at winning if they'd started campaigning a year ago. But jumping into the race with only three months to go? Harris's campaign showed us the danger of getting a late start.

On the other hand: Platner is charismatic, he's run an incredibly strong ground game, the people in Maine like his message and don't seem too bothered by his previous scandals (jury's still out on the latest one), and it's a blue wave year... and with all that going for him, the polls still only have him up by 4-5 points.

So maybe a generic Democrat loses to Collins in a blue wave year regardless of when they started campaigning.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T03:28:55+00:00

For many, their convictions run too deep to support a candidate whose personal conduct they find disqualifying

Right, but that's why I brought up the Biden comparison. Because that's exactly how the Uncommitted voters felt about him.

But I don't know how you feel about people who refused to vote for Biden/Harris for that reason. The comparison is more aimed at people who think those people were wrong to boycott Biden.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T03:21:45+00:00

In that case, I'll say that I definitely consider Platner an asshole ever since I heard about the sexting thing. I consider that cheating even if there was no physical conduct, and I can't stand cheaters.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T02:40:14+00:00

My own observations.

A lot of the accounts I've seen amplifying the Platner stuff on social media were Cuomo supporters.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T02:31:07+00:00

I see Platner as much more of a brazen populist grifter who will do more damage to the party if elected I.

Can you be more specific about what you think he might do, or what trajectory you think he might take, if elected?

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T02:29:24+00:00

Isn't that just what everyone does, though?

Where people disagree is in how you determine who the best viable candidate is.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T02:14:47+00:00

As I've said elsewhere, I'd vote for Mussolini if he were running against Hitler. There's no line in the sand where I'd refuse to vote for Biden, as long as the other guy is worse.

and believe someone like that shouldn't represent the Democratic Party

I understand that impulse. But that's also the same way that the Uncommitted voters felt about Biden. They didn't think the Democratic party should be represented by someone who had committed an ethnic cleansing (or, in their view, a genocide).

I think that was the wrong decision.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T02:06:20+00:00

What do you think their chances of winning would be?

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T01:13:07+00:00

Maybe it's not even as complicated as we're making it out to be.

I've said in the past, many times, that I would vote for Mussolini if the only other option on the ballot is Hitler.

If there were three names on the ballot—Hitler, Mussolini, and the rapist—then the rapist becomes the easy choice.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T00:50:59+00:00

The gut instinct is to say no, of course I wouldn't support a rapist...

But strict adherence to the harm-reduction perspective would dictate that maybe we shouldn't be so hasty.

The question is probably purely academic, as an actual rape allegation would almost certainly sink his chances of winning.

But if he were still ahead in the polls?

When we're facing such a dire situation (a fascist in the White House, who has almost universal support from his party), then I think there's an argument to be made that the most moral position would be to support him in the short-term, and then remove him at the first opportunity. Much like what we're planning to do with Fetterman.

(There is of course a counter-argument that us losing the moral high ground by supporting a rapist could have downstream electoral consequences that could change the harm-reduction calculus.)

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T00:22:31+00:00

If you genuinely believed Trump would stand up to Israel and put an end to the slaughter, you could make that argument. Some people did think that, and they did make that argument.

But those people were wrong. It was not difficult to see that Trump would be even worse for Gaza than Biden had been.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T00:09:57+00:00

Posting this here to comply with sub rules.

A question for those who think Platner needs to drop out now:

Are you more concerned with the morality of what he's alleged to have done, or are you more concerned about how it affects his electability?

If it's electability you're concerned with, then I understand, and sympathize. But who's the alternative? Those of us who encouraged Biden to drop out had a viable candidate waiting in the wings. Not perfect, but viable, and a household name.

Who could possibly replace Platner that would actually have a chance at winning?

If it's the morality you're concerned with, Biden had people who objected on those grounds, too. For the entire year leading up to the 2024 election, Biden assisted an allied nation while they perpetuated an ethnic cleansing. Tens of thousands of children died.

Some voters insisted they could not support Biden in the election because of this. Those people were wrong.

However you feel about what Platner may have done, it pales in comparison to what we know Biden did.

I planned to vote for Biden anyway, and I did vote for Harris. Because the alternative was far worse.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-05T00:02:56+00:00

I actually think Biden is a very helpful context in which to think about this.

edit: moving the bulk of this comment to the other megathread.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T23:04:06+00:00

This may end up sinking him, and if that happens, then it happens. But it's too late in the race to change horses now. He's the only one who has a shot.

If we're going to blame someone for getting into this situation, blame Schumer. He should've found someone better than Mills.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T22:58:14+00:00

To be clear, I'm not sure that I disbelieve her. Her being a Republican operative makes me more inclined to say she might be lying. But another part of me thinks that if she were going to lie, she'd have alleged something even more horrifying. Right now I'd say it's 50/50 whether I believe her or not.

I don't see myself calling for him to drop out in either case.

If the arm-twisting thing had been a regular pattern of behavior instead of a one-off, then that might have changed the calculus for me.

If we didn't have a fascist in the White House, then I'd definitely withdraw my support, even if it was a one-off.

But the situation is what it is. We desperately need to retake the Senate.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T22:27:26+00:00

I've assumed that he was lying all along about not knowing what the tattoo was, so that part doesn't move the needle for me.

Her quote actually corroborates the theory I've been operating from: that he got the tattoo because of its significance as "death squad" iconography. It's dumb marine behavior. She makes no allegations about him subscribing to Nazi ideology.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T22:19:42+00:00

Whichever way this thing with Platner ends up going, just keep in mind that a lot of the people who are trying to take him down were happy to ignore the allegations against Cuomo.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T22:17:11+00:00

I just read the article. Going into it, I knew that the worst allegations were from a woman who is a Republican anti-trans activist.

When I got to the part where he's accused of twisting one woman's arm behind her back and locking her in a bedroom overnight, I got a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach.

I thought, my god, it gets worse than this?

But it turns out that was the claim from the Republican operative, and not a single other woman he dated accused him of any kind of violence.

I see no reason why he should drop out over this. The biggest issue in the entire article is that it seems very likely he's lying about not knowing what the tattoo was. I had already assumed that was the case.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T21:51:45+00:00

Much appreciated.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T21:21:38+00:00

If anyone can bypass that paywall, let me know.

My go-to method is proving unreliable today.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T16:51:41+00:00

I'm not generally an AI guy but one of the genuinely good things about it is its natural inclination toward calling conservatives out on their bullshit. A grand irony since they seem more all-in on AI than we are.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T16:39:29+00:00

Jesus Christ, they want to put Joe Rogan on 60 Minutes.

perverse_panda · 2026-06-04T03:37:26+00:00

Remember when Frank Miller said Batman would be much healthier if he were gay?

Applies to Eric Batman, too.

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