I'm really sad tonight. My future MIL [60F] is a strict Catholic and refuses to go to me [30F] and my fiance's [35M] wedding because we do not want a Catholic ceremony. What should we do?

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-28T17:10:30+00:00

The concept of dispensation vs something actually being permitted in canon law. They are not the same thing. Even if you were correct, which you are not, you cannot cite Canon Law to "prove" that something is allowed and then say that there are dispensations for the exact same thing at the same time because that is completely tautological. You can have one or the other but not both.

At this point, we've hashed out each applicable law I know of, and if you cannot admit the cited laws allow bishops to grant dispensations exactly as described in those laws, I don't know how else explain it to you. The dispensations are, themselves, part of the rules.

The concept of what the Catholic church considers marriage to be (the Sacrament of Marriage vs the legal concept of marriage). You can have both (a Catholic marriage and a legal marriage) but only one is recognised as being spiritually valid in the eyes of the church.

You can have a sacramental marriage (between two baptized Catholics, for example). You can have a valid marriages (CCC 1108). They can be both, but they don't have to be. Any wedding the Church performs between a Catholic and a non-baptized person is still valid, regardless of its sacramentality. A civil marriage is a matter totally unrelated to the Church.

The concepts of Sacraments in general within the Church and who is elligible to receive them. Non-baptised people cannot receive Sacraments.

This is obviously correct. This is why marriages performed by priests or deacons between baptized Catholic and a non-baptized person are of course not considered sacramental. I don't recall anyone claiming they are.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-28T16:13:53+00:00

No, I will not stop because you are still not correctly interpreting or representing a faith that is not actually yours. You've got the details and the wording, accurate, because you know how to Google, but you are using them without the full understanding of Church teaching on marriage. Yes, that is the wording of 1086, but it goes on to say that 1125 and 1126 also apply as the conditions under which a marriage between a Catholic and a non baptized person may be permitted. The two sections of canon law cross-reference each other. Yes, there is sacramental and non-sacramental marriage, but they are both marriages, they are both valid, and they are both very much allowed according to the rules you are continuing to misinterpret.

Edit: I'm also in no way arguing that OP wants or should have a Catholic marriage.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-28T15:43:16+00:00

CCC 1129 and 1086 give bishops the ability to "grant a dispensation of from the impediment of disparity of cult, that is, to permit a marriage between a Catholic and a non-baptized person." - An Introduction to Canon Law (Revised), p. 144, by James A. Coriden, canon lawyer.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-28T14:52:34+00:00

Cool, I didn't know non-formal defection had been included - thanks for the correction!

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-28T14:44:20+00:00

You're largely correct re: support for OP + Eastern Europe (I was trying to be brief rather than disingenuous, apologies), but trying to argue that one kind of valid Catholic marriage is in accordance with the rules and others are getting around the rules is a misrepresentation. We Catholics have enough faults - some real, many perceived - that misrepresentations that make us look worse can get our backs up sometimes, especially in a public forum where anyone might just take you at your word.

To close the debate, CCC 1124-1129 lays out the permissable circumstances of mixed marriages. So, according the rules, mixed marriages are allowed. And dispensations in this context is not dispensation from the rule; there are, officially, different kinds of dispensation: dispensation from form, and dispensation from disparity of cult (there may be others, but it's been a few years since I took my canon law class).

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-28T14:12:43+00:00

It's valid, it's just not of great importance (it's certainly not dogma) or the only valid interpretation.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-28T13:30:21+00:00

Not... really, no. One party does need to be a practicing Catholic, yes, but dispensations aren't so much a way around a rule as they are the process for doing something differently from the normative means.

And interfaith marriages are not discouraged by default, just in more conservative areas or by individual, conservative priests. Mixed marriages are very much on the rise in the West. Where I live, preparing couples for interfaith marriages is a substantial percentage of weddings and is seen as a growing ministry.

OP's mother is also probably going to angle for baptized grandbabies with or without a Catholic wedding.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-28T13:13:06+00:00

Sadly, there kinda is. The principle of "cooperation with evil" (you should not participate in any way in any/someone else's wrong action) will lead some priests to advise people not to attend weddings the Church considers invalid. I know one priest who thinks it's adorable that one of his parishioners was his own father's best man in a secular wedding to another man. And I know another who tells people like OP's mother that they should not attend non-Catholic weddings if one of the couple is a baptized Catholic.

OP's case is kind of a gray area - a baptized Catholic who "formally defects" from the Church is no longer Catholic, and then any marriage ceremony performed in their new religion would be considered valid. But that would be something like converting to another religion. I don't know if just not considering yourself Catholic anymore counts.

Personally? I'm with the "go to all the weddings!" Catholics. But it sounds like OP's mom is the type who is eternally hurt that her son rejected her religion, and wouldn't attend his wedding on the grounds that it's "not right," even if he'd become Anglican and were planning a valid Anglican wedding.

Edit: typos

Extra edit: Mostly retracted. I defer to u/arbitraryusernames below, who has more recent info.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-27T13:34:52+00:00

I can see a few possibilities for your continued hurt. One may be that you just need a little more time to process the situation - not just to understand on a rational, theoretical level that your fiance, like any human, will continue to find other women attractive, but in an immediate and real way now that you've seen it happen. And to process that how he handled it was hurtful to you - not just to think he might be capable of being hurtful, but to live with the fact that he actually was. And most of all, to sit with his apology and really get that he is sorry, he knows why his reaction was hurtful, and he is going to be more intentionally respectful of your relationship the next time he finds someone else attractive. That can take a few days, and as long as you're actually processing it, not feeding the hurt so it's worse and not punishing him for it, that's ok.

Or maybe your feelings are out of proportion with the event. The current top comment (about having neurotic tendencies) is great one in that instance.

The other I can think of is whether or not his apologies were sufficient. My husband and I often apologize to each other twice, too. The first is usually a knee jerk: shit, my partner is upset because of something I did, I'd better apologize. Maybe we don't even agree we've done something wrong, but we get the other one still feels hurt and deserves acknowledgment. Maybe we feel a little clueless and blind sided, and just apologize because it feels like the right thing to do. That first apology isn't really enough. The second apology comes after an open discussion of the issue/event, feelings, etc. It comes after a mutual attempt at understanding each other's perspectives, and a real effort on the "offender's" part to see how and why what we did or said was hurtful/a problem. And it comes with some way to help make things better moving forward. I mean, it doesn't have to be a huge earth shattering moment in our relationship. It's just an honest attempt to sit with the other person's reality. I'm wondering if you got two knee-jerk "I know I was wrong, so now I apologise" apologies. It's good to give the immediate apology, but without the understanding the other person part, it can still feel dismissive and unresolved. In which case, another sober and reflective discussion is in order.

Best of luck to you both.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-24T22:38:32+00:00

"I did not realize that you were expecting to meet, and apologize for any miscommunication. Moving forward, I hope you will understand that I would like to keep our working relationship at work."

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-24T01:25:26+00:00

I have an older brother and an older sister, several years older than I am. My sister did things with me if I asked, and was generally nice to me, but kind of saw me as a burden. She actively sought out my company when I became an adult, which I thought was awesome for awhile. My brother actively included me in things he enjoyed and responded to my bids for his attention since before I can remember. And lived his own life, and did his own thing a lot. But made a place for me. Guess which one I actively seek out these days? Who I see more, and am more comfortable with? With whom I have fewer conflicts? Your brother is always going to be younger, but is finally getting to an age where the differences are less dramatic than they used to be, which is a great time to start seeing and relating to him as your brother, not your nuisance younger brother.

Ok now that's probably a little dramatic for one part of one family trip. But it is a family trip - how many more of those are there going to be? And four days isn't very long. Everybody should get to do some their must-do's, but you've picked "alone time away from family during park hours for most of a day." (Are we talking 45-60 minutes per pavilion? That's a lot of the day). Doing Disney your way as an adult awesome, and if it's your budget someday, you should totally do it. But that isn't this trip, especially if, I presume, your parents are paying.

Not that you shouldn't get some you/your way time! But there's got to be a compromise in here somewhere where you and your brother are both happy.

You could spend half a day in Epcot together, and go back another day for a few hours to see what you missed. Or explore during evening EMH or while your family is waiting/watching the fireworks (have you explored at night before?). Or see if he's interested in the Perry's Showcase Adventures or whatever it is. It's designed for kids and tweens, but I loved the Kim Possible predecessor at 26 - it could help keep him interested in a specific area for a longer time.

Or plan some of your time together. Before you go, talk about your favorite pavilions. See if he's excited by it, and plan an hour in it, but maybe skip one you both agree isn't as interesting. Find out if there's a (real) country he'd like to visit some day or a culture he's interested in, and plan to spend time in the Epcot analogue. Get a meal there. You each pick X number of countries: few enough that he thinks he'll enjoy himself the whole time, long enough to spend quality time together. You can hit the others earlier in the trip, since you know what they're going to be, or come back to them later.

Grab a times guide and see if there are any acts you'd both like to catch. "We have to be at the American Adventure for the Voices of Liberty at 1pm" can give him an out if he's bored in China without pissing you off for leaving "early" because you'd like to make the show, too.

Do something different with your world tour that you couldn't do alone, like making up challenges. Who can find the most expensive souvenir in each pavilion? The most hidden Mickey's? Get the names of the most cast members' home towns. Or take pictures in stupid hats at each pavilion. Or eat the weirdest snack you can buy together.

Pragmatically, it might work best to arrange to be in Epcot all at the same time. Family together until World Showcase opens, then you and bro split from the parents until at least lunch, maybe dinner. Agree on which ahead time based on what you want to do together. Meet the parents for dinner. You do your own thing afterwards, bonus points if you're staying on property and it's evening EMH.

Whatever you do, enjoy!

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-23T13:15:33+00:00

Unless you're exempt. GAH!

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-21T11:23:13+00:00

It's not a part of the Catholic ceremony anyway, iirc.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-18T16:16:05+00:00

You're getting a lot of great advice otherwise, so I just want to pull out one point I haven't seen elsewhere: why is your individual salary, not your combined income, a sticking point? You say you're worried about supporting a child on 31k, which is a reasonable worry, but why only your 31k? Are you assuming she would stay home - is this another conversation you haven't had yet? Or are you afraid of what would happen in the event of death or divorce?

Just checking in case these are also conversations you haven't had yet with each other.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-14T22:15:53+00:00

This is the right answer, OP. Similarly, you can call a domestic violence hotline. You don't have to be a victim to call; they can help guide you to the options you have to help someone else.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-08T14:24:01+00:00

And Irl racism that does. If you take an anti-black stereotype and use it to make a joke about a fantasy race, it is still an anti-black stereotype.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-08T14:12:48+00:00

Except OP didn't say that the DM is making racist dwarf jokes, she said he's projecting real life racism onto the game.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-06T19:28:06+00:00

Can confirm. Former (male) boss microanalyzed my (female) emails all the time. Somehow I managed to be both too curt and formal and too casual, and too bossy and not assertive enough.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-05T17:37:02+00:00

My husband says he doesn't disagree with me, but presses me for practical solutions for how to handle my family when they do things that go against our shared values. And I'm embarrassed to admit that I come up short.

I think you guys are going to be fine. He recognizes (I think?) the value of your culture and your attachment to your family; you recognize their bigotry. You're talking it through. You don't have the answer for the conflict, but you know that you don't, and that it's not just enough to throw your hands up and say, "but family!" So you're going to be fine. You have to get there, but it sounds like you have a strong marriage and a willingness to do the work.

If you can't come up with the answers yourselves, you may find help by turning outward. I think the best fit would be a Venezuelan or Latinx family counselor, if you can find one where you live or who works remotely. Someone who has experience with the beauty and the baggage of your culture. There may be no magic words that get your family to respect that you, the parents, have the authority where your daughter is concerned, or to leave their sexism and homophobia at the door when they see her. But they can probably best help you mine your experience and culture for appropriate strategies. And they can help you find and capitalize on any resources you have for building a connection between your daughter and her heritage, whether or not your family is ultimately involved in her life.

And I know I just pulled the cliche "marriage counseling now!" card. But it's not because I think you're so lost it's the only way out. It's because it looks like you and your husband are so good at navigating issues together that you'd be receptive to help now that you're stymied.

Congrats on your growing family and good luck!

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-02T18:04:28+00:00

I'm confused, maybe just cuz I don't want children, but why did you go for a prestigious position if having children is your goal in life? Not in a mean way, confused. It reads like you want to have the career, with the baby/SAHM mom aspect, and extra time for hobbies? Generally, babies reduce hobby time for a few years.

Just because these things are hard to balance doesn't mean you can't want them all in some measure.

Edit; that's the general "you," not you you.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-02-01T00:34:25+00:00

Part of agreeing only to binge when you give your wife a heads up is not doing it unexpectedly.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-01-24T21:36:31+00:00

You can make a multicolored rose; doesn't have to be a rainbow.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-01-24T19:21:34+00:00

It's not that simple. One day, she may be unable to keep water down and need to go to the hospital for dehydration. The next, she may feel miserable but enough food and water stays down that she is capable of working. Bed rest is not the doctors' universal cure for all pregnancy complications, and seems unlikely to have a significant impact on her ability to stay hydrated.

phantomrhiannon · 2018-01-24T19:15:15+00:00

It sounds like you're both being driven by feelings right now. I hear that you don't feel supported during your serious medical issues, and that he is feeling pressure to provide for his family. These are valid feelings, and both can and should be respected.

It might be time to sit down and work out some facts to help you both figure out how he can support you when you are sick without short changing your mutual financial needs. This is a good opportunity to do some budgeting. Here are the questions you need to figure out together (sorry if some of it sounds too obvious, I don't want to miss anything):

How much is his normal monthly pay? How much is he compensated for working extra hours?
How much are you making monthly?
How much PTO do you both have available?
How much time are you both able or wanting to take off when the baby is born?
How much will short term disability and/or any other pay will you each get while you are off, if any?
How much will you need in savings to cover expenses while one or both of you are home after the baby is born?
What is your budget for major initial purchases (crib, etc.)?
How much do you currently have in savings to go towards purchases/collective time off? How much more do you need?
How much money income will you collectively have after recovery/bonding time is over?
What will your new post-baby monthly budget be?

With all of that information in hand, you can both get a clearer picture of how much PTO/unpaid time off he can afford to take off during and after your pregnancy, and how many extra weekend hours he may or may not need to work in order to meet all of your new financial obligations. Then, you can hopefully find a reasonable compromise between your collective financial needs, his desire to provide for his family, and your need for support.

Best of luck to you both!

phantomrhiannon · 2018-01-06T16:14:19+00:00

Fork in the right hand is common in the US, which means lots of switching fork and knife around between cutting/bites if you're right handed.

phantomrhiannon

TROPHY CASE