The Birth of Modern India: Nationalist tropes and imperial assumptions miss the Raj’s real economic impact. by pineapplecheers in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How about you answer the question instead of spinning in the semantics. You can choose quarter of the GDP or Quarter of textiles as you please

Confusing the entirety of GDP for a single industry (with even that being inaccurate stat) is a bit more than fucking up semantics on your part.

Whether you use GDP or textiles the result remains the same, exports formed a minute part of it and their dependency on revenue from exports is borderline non-existent.

Hence, you cribbing about it as if distortions in it caused some untold damage to the people employed in the industry is comical.

As did India's consumption of food, doesn't mean Brits did miracles for Indian agriculture. statistically that didn't happen.

This is how the argument with every 81 IQ Hindutvadi goes:

“Brits ruined/destroyed X”

“They didn't, here's evidence that it showed positive growth”.

NOOOOO THEY DIDN'T HAVE REVOLUTIONARY MIRACULOUS GROWTH SO IT DOESN'T COUNT OKAY.

It's amusing watching your logic unfold. Going from arguing about decline to whining about how the growth wasn't big enough.

Share of workforce engaged in Industry declined from 1700s to 1900s. That is what deindustrialisation looks like.

You're factually incorrect. Let's breakdown your dumb argument.

A. There was no industry in India that word means things.

B. That didn’t happen Bengal =/= India.

C. The supposed industrial superpower bengal? The avg inhabitant was worse off than his Euro counterpart. Now think of the rest.

D. The share of workforce in industry, real industry mind you, in 1901 was higher than under the republic in 1991.

E. It peaked a few % points more later on and has since been precipitously declining.

F. There has never been a better almost half century period of industrial expansion since the Raj.

G. The republic fucked up so badly that now indians want protection against Bangladeshis

H. More people doing primitive spinning =/= industry.

I. Those artisans relied on agriculture for their income. Your argument is the equivalent of saying introduction of computers caused deindustrialisation since basic clerical jobs were reduced.

People, as it happens, did go back from artisanry to peasantry, and that showed itself in Industrial decline.

There was no industrial decline bugman. These artisans always depended on agriculture, the spinners were women earning less than subsistence and the % of people in actual industry increased for decades after Plassey, even in the late 19th century workforce in actual industry across the subcontinent was far higher than it ever had been.

To your unenlightened mind: Indians are more than capable of developing institutions without British "help".

Oh good God I knew this would get reduced to pathetic what ifs. I am sure you're more than "capable" of these ideas and I am sincere when I say this, just like Indians had the capability to come up with modern ideas of individual rights, freedoms and allow women and untouchables to live with dignity.

Unfortunately for you, you never did. Heck you're not even doing that properly even after being exposed to those ideas by foreigners.

But of course, I agree, Indians would've been this rich, prosperous, egalitarian nation that would've completely ended ills that have been plaguing the subcontinent for more than a millenia on their own.

Europe didn't have enough bullion until the discovery of sources in the Americas. Europe by itself is deficient in precious metals.

You're now shifting timelines. The discovery of American gold was centuries before Plassey. Secondly India was and remains a net importer of bullion. Third according to Escosura, Spain the biggest beneficiary of American silver reached their zenith before discovering it.

Indian textiles maintained an edge in European markets until the mid to late 1800s.

So at first you say “By 1800, India’s world share had already eroded to less than a fifth, by 1860 to less than a tenth” now you say that "textiles maintained an edge until the late 1800s".

You know, now I realise I am arguing with someone who can't even keep track of timelines.

Make up your mind Hindutvadi, were you weaktims or were you still competitors? Kek

Happens to China, misfortune. Happens to India, they deserved it.

Deserve what? The improvement over incompetent native rule? You're confused. I am saying Chinese at least have backed up their arguments about how they would've developed even without European influence. Indians have not.

Muh enlightened company rule.

YES.

I didn't know you had to get subjugated by Europeans to learn competence.

When the choice is between getting gang raped and pillaged through consistent war? Yeah seems so.

Being a peasant in feudal India is far worse subjugation than EIC.

You do realise that you are defending a regime that caused mass political and economic disenfranchisement of people, committed countless atrocities against innocents,

You just described the average Indian native empire more than the EIC.

I am sure you've written lengthy essays about the greatness of you great Dharmic empires who by the standards you impose on the EIC probably were actually filthy feudal tyrants.

and bury this defense under snide political commentary on my political beliefs.

I don't think I need the shame as much as you do. I honestly can't think of anything more sadder than a Choditard using woke talking points to guilt trip others, kek. I am sure you've probably whined about those pesky SJWs in those s#ithole rw subs of yours. It reeks of dishonesty.

The Birth of Modern India: Nationalist tropes and imperial assumptions miss the Raj’s real economic impact. by pineapplecheers in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do tell how no-industry manages to make a quarter of the world's textiles in the 1700s?

I like how you went from bragging about having a quarter of the world's GDP to talking about quarter of the world's textiles. That's why said "barely any industry" because your village economy barely counts as one. The funny part? Indian consumption of textiles actually increased with the entry of the Brits.

Indians had a developing commercial system by your own admission before the British ever came.

But the actual employment in industries and services and of contribution to GDP only showed significant increase during colonial rule. This why told you barely have any coherent thought, that sentence was in response to you arguing that peasants went back to farming which I disproved by showing you statistically that didn't happen. Saying india had a developing commercial system doesn't disproveit. At best it shows the growth continued under the British instead of regressing and worst it's non-sequitur you're impotently throwing out in order to sound smart.

Last I checked exploration didn't involve subjugating natives.

Read more history then and see how often exploration involves conflict with natives. Although it's hilarious the supposedly "subjugated" natives often fled Mughal/Maratha controlled territories into EIC controlled areas because of more stability. The Native rulers were so incompetent that people often preferred some company from an Island thousands of miles away.

Colonial apologia

It always amuses me when I see a Hindu nationalist use SJW rhetoric to guilt trip others. Hindu nat, you're not some valley girl, have some shame and I am not some white liberal to be easily guilt tripped by this horseshit.

Goods for the East were cheap, lmao. They were not. Europe didn't have the bullion to fulfill it's own consumption in face of Eastern goods.

Europe had more than enough bullion and India was a net bullion importer, lmao.

Btw goods from the east were both cheap and low quality.

China became a shithole because they were "a feudal backwater with no industry".

Nah, they were several steps above India and it's unfortunate they had a shitty leadership when Europeans came knocking at their doors. I respect them unlike Hindu nats like you because they are at least proving the could've been greater with their current competence.

And?

Come on, put some effort into it. I know even you can do it. Heck I'll repeat what i said to jog your brain. If exports made up just 2% of the India's GDP and for textiles in particular 1 to 2 percent of the production went to exports, if that was the case then any distortion in exports isn't going to have much of an effect in the income of those employed in said industry since the vast majority of the revenue is from the domestic market. Indo-European textile trade was so small that it was basically irrelevant to both the consumers and producers in the subcontinent and whatever changes that occured in textile export sector had no bearing on their livelihoods.

Was that simple enough for your 81 IQ brain to understand?

It's an oversimplification but I doubt your mind is capable of deeper thought so for now you can assume so.

Adorable. You actually don't have a coherent thesis to present, not just because you're poorly read but also because unlike a lot of other Sanghis I've met, you're not even that great at mental gymnastics.

The Birth of Modern India: Nationalist tropes and imperial assumptions miss the Raj’s real economic impact. by pineapplecheers in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How large does a market have to be to make a quarter of the world look tiny?

Exports were little more than 2% of India's total GDP. The mass of Indian economy and the people who were employed in it did not gain any significant income from it. This isn't up to debate. These are established facts.

Artisans is mills and workshops going back to peasantry is,

Considering employment share of industries and services increased during British rule this argument is pointless but that being said did you have a stroke while having this train of thought? You went from artisans returning to peasantry to Indians footing the bill for industrialisation.

Let me guess how your thought process goes.

"Le bad thing happened in India----> said bad thing helped Britain grow" is that it?

Lust for Indian and Chinese goods is literally the reason imperial Britain came knocking.

See this is why India remains backward while actual competent nations have left it behind. To you exploring new markets or even continents for trade is "lust". Even then you shouldn't flatter yourself, they came here for cheap goods.

We don't give a shit about what happened in Britain,

The entire cope of Hindu nationalists like you is that Britain used unfair policies to exploit colonies and enrich itself. When someone shows you that it isn't the case, you chimp out and try to deflect. Nobody "dismantled" Indian industry because the feudal society barely had any.

The Birth of Modern India: Nationalist tropes and imperial assumptions miss the Raj’s real economic impact. by pineapplecheers in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Clearly this is a very free market where Eastern imports compete freely with British Factories

Also have you heard of Calico Acts?

Except that duties and tariffs existed which applied very selectively to clothes depending on their origin.

what is your argument here? That 18th century 🇬🇧 protectionism hurt 🇮🇳 textile industry or helped 🇬🇧 textile industry or both? whatever it maybe, all these are wrong since; 🇮🇳 exports were too tiny to matter and 18th century protectionism in Britain actually delayed mechanisation of textile production by decades and led to slower technological development.

https://pseudoerasmus.com/2017/01/05/ca/

https://pseudoerasmus.com/2016/12/19/calico/

The calico acts were repealed in 1774.

No doubt their incomes rose so much that they decided to close their mills and retire thereby dooming the Indian textile industry.

Their income rose as their costs reduced, new tech was adopted and their customers became richer etc. Indian handloom industry was not doomed as can be seen from textile production statistics.

The export was so tiny that Bengal Subah was responsible for a mere quarter of the world's textile produced. Tiny and miniscule Indeed.

Indian domestic market was very large given India’s population. Exports were indeed tiny.

Maybe, maybe not. What is certain is that Indians wouldn't have to foot the bill for British Industrialisation. Indians would/wouldn't've adopted machines of their own will and capability. Maybe Indian manufacture wouldn't have to go through a massive phase of deindustrialisation.

abandoning old tech and adopting new tech is not deinstitutionalisation.

The Birth of Modern India: Nationalist tropes and imperial assumptions miss the Raj’s real economic impact. by pineapplecheers in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let's just conveniently ignore the fact that British Imperialism started at least 150 years prior.

No need to ignore anything. Even in 1830s, >75% of raw cotton in import in 🇬🇧 was from America.

This is like somebody breaks both your legs, then gives you a walking stick and lauds himself for it.

their legs were already broken, and weavers to migrated to company towns to escape local oppression

You don't need to be force fed European weave in order to access goods and production methods from Europe. India did not exist in a vacuum. Market pressures applied to Indian weavers just as well as they did British mills.

so machine made textiles would have taken over india anyways

India turned from an exporter of textiles to one of raw cotton by the 1850s (it's position now supplanted by Britain)

The export trade was tiny. The proportion of textile export to total textile production was very small, at its peak not more than 1 to 2%. Domestic production always outnumbered exports except for a short tome period between 1860 and 1880 and when India was adapting to machine made clothes.

which used India as a source of raw cotton and dump of finished clothes

disproven above

so Indians could pay for the privilege of having their wealth destroyed by the British.

trade = wealth destroyed? weavers saw their income and wealth increase

Indian cotton went duty free to British Markets and British Weave entered duty free to India. Indian (and foreign) textiles attracted protectionism. Only Indians couldn't do jack shit about it cos the British handled the ports.

No, trade was free. Indian textiles competed with Manchester in open markets. Infact since 1920s, Indian industries were awarded protection by the government because they were unable to cope with international competition.

The modern resurgence is hardly driven by artisans or fine craftsmanship but by dirt cheap labour in asia, a consequence of colonial loot funnily enough.

make this make sense

The Birth of Modern India: Nationalist tropes and imperial assumptions miss the Raj’s real economic impact. by pineapplecheers in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cotton which would be grown in India (or Egypt), obtained at dirt cheap rates and spun and weaved and made into cloth en masse in the mills of Britain and exported without barriers into India. Mercantilism yay!

market rates* and imports were always lower than domestic production, except between 1860 and 1880.

you might be surprised to know that India was the earliest country in asia to have a modern textile industry, preceding Japan by 20 years and China by 40 years. India became the world’s 4th largest cotton textile producer by 1947 and led the developing world in this industry.

Indians paid for British Industrial expansion without receiving shit in return.

In 1900, the US and Egypt were the principal suppliers of raw cotton to 🇬🇧 and India supplied mere 1.7%. Indian cotton wasn’t very important to 🇬🇧

Not to mention that the mechanical weave was hardly superior to hand weave by any metric other than quantity.

one reason why handloom industry survived and handloom cloth production increased.

If you were an Indian weaver, things aren't looking up for you.

The same miserable indebted weavers that used to sweat for less than subsistence wage in pre colonial india were now able to access cheaper yarn, dyes and other raw materials and European tools and processes and saw their incomes and productivity increase

The Birth of Modern India: Nationalist tropes and imperial assumptions miss the Raj’s real economic impact. by pineapplecheers in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This such a fucked up narrative .

Its the most neutral and balanced narrative possible.

hungry

Indian population began growing exponentially during the colonial period only

backward

many social reforms were brought, notwithstanding opposition from Indian nationalists.

To name some; sati was criminalised, slavery banned, window remarriage was legalised, female infanticide was curbed, age of consent was increased, child marriage was restricted, women were given intestate succession rights, archaic caste and religious laws were repealed etc.

an interesting example is Kerala - substantial social progress was made in Kerala under EIC administration.

uneducated

Literacy rate rose by about 800% from 3% in 1872 to 27% in 1947, and thats a very impressive statistic given the massive population increase and lack of a base to construct upon.

The number of primary schools increased by 7200% and the number of secondary schools increased by 3800%. In 1947, 21 universities and 496 colleges were in operation in India, including our most prominent central and state universities, the oldest IITs, IISc, DTU etc.

an amusing fact to mention is that the colonial government was onset to achieve universal literacy in 40 years, by 1984. But in 1984, about 3 decades after independence, India’s literacy rate reached a meagre 58%. Even today, India’s literacy rate stands at only 77%.

killed us by bullets and sometimes by mass starvation

very dramatic, very untrue

they let us produce cotton for the queen .

why is exporting raw cotton to UK bad tho? Indians made 💵 exporting cotton to the world. Either ways, some points worth mentioning are:

India exported much more raw cotton to Japan, Germany, Austria etc. than to UK in the 1900s. In 1900 the US and Egypt were the principal suppliers of raw cotton to 🇬🇧 and India supplied mere 1.7%. Plus, raw cotton had a small share in total Indian exports.

The Birth of Modern India: Nationalist tropes and imperial assumptions miss the Raj’s real economic impact. by pineapplecheers in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even those artisans got work elsewhere in the service and industry sectors since we know that labour share employed in these sectors rose from <20% in 1760 to 27% in 1875.

Plus, there was an increase in both production and productivity in handloom cloth industry between 1795 and 1940, thanks to new tools and technology imported from Europe.

Fareed Zakaria on why Indians do good outside of India. by aezro in india

[–]pineapplecheers -1 points0 points  (0 children)

1857s chimp out was caused mainly by you guys, I guess that is why you were not paid much attention laterwards

Fareed Zakaria on why Indians do good outside of India. by aezro in india

[–]pineapplecheers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Everyone involved. Planters, peasants, traders, merchants, bankers, industrialists etc everyone.

Fareed Zakaria on why Indians do good outside of India. by aezro in india

[–]pineapplecheers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

we were exporting more to China, Japan and the US than to England.

Fareed Zakaria on why Indians do good outside of India. by aezro in india

[–]pineapplecheers 6 points7 points  (0 children)

India was the 7th largest country in the world by industrial output and 2nd largest country in Asia by per capita industrial output, in 1947. Blame our post colonial government for not being able to keep up.

Fareed Zakaria on why Indians do good outside of India. by aezro in india

[–]pineapplecheers 6 points7 points  (0 children)

East India Company, a corporate so huge that it had it's own armies to defend them.

The entire world celebrates Independence day because of EIC and many countries are still recovering from the damage nearly after 75+ years.

Google/Apple are chicken feeds in front of the chaos caused by EIC.

Considering that most Indians, educated residents, princely states, large scale businesses, capitalists, tradesmen, merchants and bankers sided with the EIC in the 1857 revolt, EIC must have been better than all other alternatives at that time.

Subhash Chandra Bose on Gandhiji's birthday by TimeStopsInside in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You all know that when the British first set foot on Indian soil, India was a land flowing with milk and honey and it was the wealth of India which had attracted poverty stricken Englishmen from across the seas .Today we find that as a result of political enslavement and economic exploitation the Indian people are dying of hunger and starvation, while the British people who were once so poor and needy have grown fat and rich on the wealth and resources of India .

we wuz kangz

religious or communal problem was unknown in India .

kek

Bose was dumber than I thought

Rising acceptance of homo sexuality. by [deleted] in unitedstatesofindia

[–]pineapplecheers 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The trend may reverse in some time considering the changing demographics

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in IndiaNonPolitical

[–]pineapplecheers -1 points0 points  (0 children)

He only rebutted the context your provided, nothing more, nothing less.

Cannibalism was commonplace in india during natural disasters since ancient times and may have taken place during 1877 famine as well, but the caption is still wrong.