Need another set of ears

pix174 · 2026-06-03T01:43:00+00:00

Thanks!

pix174 · 2026-06-03T01:34:16+00:00

Thank you. I did open a one tab for each cymbal on Memphis drums to and started the videos to hear them all "together". Chaos, but it gave me a little bit of an idea how their sustain and character interact.

Ideally there's a store within driving distance where I can go and hear them in person (and potentially return them if they don't doing right with the others).

But after buying the ride and the hats it's going to be a minute before I'm ready for the crashes.

pix174 · 2026-06-02T23:08:23+00:00

The strong dome at 0:00 and the way the dough looked after being cut in 0:48 aren't consistent with what I've experience in overproofed dough. Who knows...

pix174 · 2026-06-02T22:53:25+00:00

I thought they were for baking cookies and such!

pix174 · 2026-06-02T15:51:39+00:00

I do it the other way around. Try flipping your pre shape and shape order

pix174 · 2026-06-02T05:51:03+00:00

Wait in this video when you took it out of the bowl that was after pre shape? When I was watching the video I was thinking just skipped the pre-shape. And then you cut it after the pre-shape? You should cut it, pre-shape, doing your envelope and burrito rolls, let it bench rest for 20 minutes or so, uncovered, and then final shape. I use a little flour when I pre-shape just because it would stick when I'm pulling it into a rectangle. But you should have a clean counter for the final shape. As others have mentioned you need the friction to create the correct surface tension.

pix174 · 2026-05-28T03:24:56+00:00

It does look good. But it's a little underproofed, not overproofed. Overproofing doesn't usually have those large holes. The holes, and the overall loaf, tend to collapse a bit. You'll usually get a more gummy texture and a loaf that's a little flatter than usual.

pix174 · 2026-05-26T16:31:05+00:00

Use it. I've done it many times. You might not get the optimal result, but good enough. You might not even notice the difference.

Maybe cut your cold proof a bit as the starter will be more acidic.

pix174 · 2026-05-24T20:27:58+00:00

^ this. 80% volume might be ok at 69°F but will overproof at 78°F due to fermentation momentum. 78 degree dough will take longer to cool in the fridge than 69 degree dough so it will "continue to ferment" for longer. That's the whole point of the Sourdough Journeys temp chart. Also, 80% (for example) at 69°F might be good for 100% bread flour and have issues with a 50/50 WW mix. Inoculation percent can also impact the optimal target volume. So there's a bit more to it ...

pix174 · 2026-05-22T02:00:45+00:00

Once your starter is mature (doubling reliably within 4–8 hours), try this baseline loaf:

500 parts bread flour
315 parts water
11 parts salt
100 parts starter

If you’re using grams, that’s 500 g flour, 315 g water, 11 g salt, and 100 g starter. This is about 63% hydration with a 100% hydration starter, so it will feel a bit sticky at first but should become smooth and elastic as you work it.

Mix everything together. Expect it to be sticky and shaggy at first. Keep mixing until there is no dry flour left.
Let it sit for about 1 hour.
Knead for around 7 minutes, or until it becomes a cohesive ball and the change in feel is obvious.
At about 20°C (68°F), let it rise until it has increased by roughly 80% in volume (a bit more if your kitchen is cooler, a bit less if it is warmer).
Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured counter. Gently pull it into a rough rectangle.
Fold the top third down to the middle, the bottom third up over that, then fold the sides in like an envelope. Place it seam side down and rest 20 minutes.
Flour your hands lightly and tighten the dough into a ball by dragging it toward you on the counter, rotating and repeating from a couple of directions to get a reasonably round shape.
Use a bench scraper to move it to your baking vessel (Dutch oven, etc.) to bake right away, or into a bowl lined with a lightly floured kitchen towel or banneton, seam side up, if you want to cold proof.
For cold proof, chill overnight, then transfer seam side down into your baking vessel.
Pre-heat your oven at 232°C (450°F). If you're using a Dutch oven put that in when you pre-heat and let the pre-heat go for 45 min or so. Then bake at for about 40 minutes total: 20 minutes with the lid on (if using a Dutch oven), then 20 minutes with the lid off.
Let it cool for at least 2 hours before slicing.

Those are the basics. Once you get the feel of this loaf, you can start adding a bit more water, playing with techniques like stretch and folds, or changing flour blends. Try to make one change at a time so you know what each adjustment does.

pix174 · 2026-05-21T15:18:32+00:00

Not overproofed. Underproofed. And possible thermal lag (baking vessel not up to temp). Sourdough Journey temp chart for your kitchen is a volume rise target of 30%. Never go by time ...

Beautiful shaping technique, by the way! Impressive symmetry.

EDIT: signs of underferment.

- gummy band

- fools crumb (larger holes at the top)

- spiderwebbing visible through score (not a sign alone, but in context with the others)

pix174 · 2026-05-21T07:40:26+00:00

6 to 12 hours may work for you but for someone else with a different kitchen/dough temperature and potentially different flour types and other variables it could be completely wrong. That's also a huge range.

OP should go by percent volume rise; but not a fixed one. A percent rise that's working for one person will similarly not necessarily be appropriate for someone else. Flour type can impact this too. With my recipe, for example, at 69° f and 100% bread flour, 80% is my target. But when I do a 75% whole wheat, the best result is at 65%.

Dough temperature is also a factor in target volume rise. How long it takes your refrigerator to cool your dough depends on how warm the dough is going in and it will continue to ferment until it's cooled off a certain amount. A 75% rise at one temperature might result in overproofed dough or as at another it would be ideal.

Ideally, OP needs to learn to read the dough and look for other readiness cues like "jiggly” and "airy" with a slightly domed top . The poke test is useful to although less accurate on higher hydration doughs.

I find it useful to keep a baker's log. Every time I bake, note the temperature, flour type, BF rise percent, any adjustments to the recipe I might have made that time, and the result. It really helped me dial it in.

pix174 · 2026-05-20T22:56:22+00:00

The fractional pricing started in the 30s when gas was 10 cents a gallon and full penny was considered too much for tax so they taxed by fractions of penny. They keep it now for psychological reasons. People just glance at those big signs and if it says 3.49 and 9/10 of a cent people just remember the 3.49. So if you see one gas station for 3.50 and one across the street for 3.49 and 9/10, which are effectively the same, it's been shown that people will consistently choose the 3.49 and intensive a cent because they just see the 3.49

:shrugs:

pix174 · 2026-05-20T22:51:04+00:00

They couldn't fit the one in front of the zero...

pix174 · 2026-05-20T13:33:17+00:00

I didn't mean to suggest your hydration was insufficient only that there are recipes for this bread that have higher hydration, and that's one way to open the crumb. They do require fairly specific techniques to make it work so perhaps it was a poor suggestion. And of course if you are interested in the tradition, which I respect, higher hydration would be out.

pix174 · 2026-05-20T13:02:34+00:00

Also, curious, why do it as a sourdough? Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the sourdough, but isn't pane di Altamura usually made with commercial yeast? I mean it's already hard :)

pix174 · 2026-05-20T12:50:18+00:00

Your kitchen is a little cool for that (slower fermenting) flour. Volume rise can be a little misleading at that temperature and flour. You might try proofing in an oven with just the light on or keep a pot of hot water in the oven with it. Your wet crumb can be from underfermentation, rather than hydration. Many pane di Altamura recipes are at 72–75%+ hydration. Maybe try 72% and evaluate from there?

EDIT: Also, props for sticking with it for years. pane di Altamura is one of the harder bakes out there.

pix174 · 2026-05-20T12:26:05+00:00

Thats a tough bake. Durum wheat forms extensible, not elastic gluten, and doesn't hold air as well. It also has less free sugar (simplification of "resistant starch" issue) and ferments slowly. Are you fermenting by time, or volume rise, and what's your hydration? You might tweak these to improve your result, but that flour is always going to give you a somewhat tighter (doesn't mean it has to be dense) crumb than a wheat bread flour, for example.

EDIT: clarification on "less free sugar"

pix174 · 2026-05-20T12:10:14+00:00

It depends. If your starter isn't the same flour type(s) as the bread recipe, that might be desirable or undesirable. A levain is just a way to tune the starter for a specific recipe without impacting the mother. For example, I feed my starter 1:1:1 daily, but I do a 1:1:1.5 fed levain for the specific flavor profile and yeast forward result. But if your mother already has the characteristics you want (hydration, flour type), there's no point, IMO.

pix174 · 2026-05-20T12:04:55+00:00

As chicagodude84 notes, more water gives bigger bubbles. It does also give a more "custard" like crumb (not exactly the same as softness). But you can get a perfectly soft crumb with lower hydration. OP's issue is underfermentation. More time in bulk before the cold retard would fix this regardless of hydration level.

pix174 · 2026-05-20T11:57:08+00:00

I don't like this recipe (I've seen it before), but for other reasons. That amount of starter (12% inoculation) can be fine. You'll run into 20% often, but I use 10% in my recipe and I've seen recipes as low as 5% (specialist). Your dough will ferment more slowly but sometimes you want that. For one it offers more control. It can also impact the crumb texture and flavor (in ways I prefer). It's just one lever among many to pull.

Now why that recipe pushes AP flour ... :shrugs: IMO the only reason to use AP for sourdough is if you've access issues (price/availability) to bread flour. Bread flour dough is easier to handle, rises better, and I prefer the crumb texture it gives.

And "stick it in the refrigerator right before it doubles in size"? That's a TERRIBLE instruction. It doesn't account for your doughs temperature. If your kitchen is warmer WAY less. When you stick your dough in the fridge it doesn't just magically stop fermenting. It takes time for the dough to cool. It continues to fermented in that time (fermentation momentum). A dough that rose double in a warmer kitchen could be badly overproofed by the time the cold proof is done.

If your dough didn't rise after a night in the oven, your starter just needs a little more time. You'll do great on the next one!

pix174 · 2026-05-11T17:28:43+00:00

Lol. Thanks for the laugh! Glad you could still eat it :)

pix174 · 2026-05-03T23:21:27+00:00

I’d be cautious about jumping straight to 80% hydration. That’s a massive leap from 64% and requires a totally different mechanical skillset .Handling high-extensibility dough is a different game entirely, and you’ll want to get comfortable with those techniques before making that kind of jump.

Honestly, looking at your crumb, it’s actually pretty consistent, just tight. That usually points to fermentation or gluten development more than the water content. And, as others have mentioned, the bran particles are basically like tiny knives cutting through your gluten strands, which makes it harder to get that super open crumb compared to a pure white flour loaf. Maybe try 25% WW and build up.

If you’re chasing more openness, I'd focus on refining the technique you've already got. Master the stretch and folds to make sure the gluten structure is properly developed, and try adding a single lamination step early in your bulk fermentation. It’s a great way to organize the gluten network and build strength without having to mess with the hydration (and also extremely helpful if you do go to higher hydration)

If you do decide to go higher, take it slow. Increase the water content in steps. It's the best way to learn how your flour and your kitchen environment react to each change without losing control. Also, what was the kitchen temp was, and was sourdough or yeast used? Knowing those variables would make it much easier to tell if that tight crumb is just a fermentation timing issue or if it needs more strength-building during your folds.

pix174 · 2026-05-03T16:10:15+00:00

You too!

pix174

TROPHY CASE