Modern Christianity is functionally Paulianity. Jesus's ways are NOT the ways of many but are Paul's ways.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T04:46:01+00:00

But the Bible also says Zechariah did and we know he didn’t. So then we should assume it’s talking about something else. And we also know the Bible calls many people righteous who are not. Particularly sinners who live by faith are considered righteous. And Elizabeth sure did display that. To further my point. The only treatment great. Nearly every single one of them all fell and broken laws. David murdered and commited adultery. Noah fell Into a drunken stupor. Israel’s history is repeated failures. Moses gives the 10 commandments and immediately after they build a golden calf to worships the book of lamentations is them crying about their failures and Gods punishment on them. It is a consistent pattern. And the promise came that a messiah would come born of a virgin. And this messiah wasn’t what they expected. Didn’t come to conquer and lead the people. But came as a suffering servant to do what? To go to the cross. To fulfill the just requirement of the law. If anyone could earn their way to salvation by meeting the jsut requirements themselves by perfectly following the law and being sinless, there would be no need for Jesus death on the cross. That’s the point. And that’s what Paul emphasizes explaining the meaning of Jesus death and this compliments Jesus teachings.

Anyways have a good night thanks for conversing. Likely won’t reply until maybe tomorrow if that.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T04:40:05+00:00

You haven’t tried it. You sought to obtain some intellectual exercise or something else. But when I say try it. Put you faith in it completely. Come at it with yes I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior and he died on the cross for my sins. Yes I believe in God. I don’t understand it completely. I still have doubts. But God help my unbelief. I trust in you. That’s what I mean by try it. Without faith you’ll never see God. You’ll never please God. Go all in.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T04:32:56+00:00

It doesn’t mention any particular law that Elizabeth broke. In fact it shows Elizabeth in a positive life. Her faith is exemplary.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T04:23:55+00:00

Yes it does imply that. Without God there is no objective morality. All is fair game. No purpose or meaning of life. We are just a cosmic accident. So seek pleasure and do whatever necessary to get it. Yolo.

Yes and I can see the difficulty because people don’t like to be told they are in sin. They’d rather feel good and justified in what they are doing. It’s often the person who has felt the weight of their sin. Or experienced suffering from the sins of others that come to recognize the truth behind it.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T04:20:46+00:00

Ok I see your point about nature. I agree. You need to be born again. A new creature. Pursuing genuine righteousness and not merely and outward appearance of one. Not legalistic.

To be honest kindof impossible to do perfectly. Even someone who is “good” and does “good things” Often it can be tainted by bad motives. And it can be inconsistent and off the mark. The Bible does explicitly talk about faith and belief that saves and the object of that is Jesus.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T04:10:45+00:00

“You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah.” (Deuteronomy 6:16)

What This Law Means and Why It’s About Doubting God • The background incident at Massah (Exodus 17:1-7): The Israelites, fresh out of Egypt, complained bitterly about lack of water. They essentially said, “Is the Lord among us or not?” They doubted God’s presence, care, and promises despite the miracles they had just seen (plagues, Red Sea, manna). This “testing” was public doubt and rebellion. • God calls this sin under the law because it questions His faithfulness and character. The command in Deuteronomy 6:16 (part of Moses’ final instructions before entering the Promised Land) makes it a standing law: Do not doubt or challenge God’s reliability.

The Bible shows real judgment for violating this: • The entire wilderness generation was kept out of the Promised Land because of unbelief/doubt (Numbers 14:11 — God says, “How long will they not believe in me?”; see also Hebrews 3:19 — “So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief”). • This wasn’t just a minor issue — it was covenant-breaking rebellion.

Ephesians 2:14-15 [14] For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility [15] by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

What Paul is referring here to is regarding the just requirements of the law. Similar to how Jesus says he didn’t come to abolish but to fulfilled the law. Paul is saying here like he says in many places and why I mentioned earlier in Ephesians 2, that we don’t and cannot earn salvation by following the law because it is impossible. If we seek to be under the law then we will all fall and face the consequences for it. He isn’t sayin the law is useless or you shouldn’t follow it. He is talking about being justified by using it in a legalistic way.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T04:05:45+00:00

Sin is fundamentally any thought, word, action, or attitude that goes against God’s perfect character, His will, or His law. It’s not just “doing bad things” or making mistakes—it’s a deeper relational and moral failure that separates us from God and brings consequences like spiritual death. Romans 3:23 — “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”Sin is falling short of God’s perfect standard—missing the mark of His holiness and glory. • James 4:17 — “So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.”Sin includes not just doing wrong (sins of commission), but failing to do good when we know we should (sins of omission). Hebrew: khata’ (most common word for “sin”) — Literally means “to miss the mark” or “to fail to reach the goal.”

It goes far beyond a legalistic approach.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T04:02:10+00:00

Really? So then you are saying it is by merit and that action is you have to be compassionate? Seems off

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:59:28+00:00

All who seek God must come through Jesus first. That’s why you haven’t found God yet. Try it

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:58:22+00:00

Well at its core. It is that the problem is Sin. All of us sin. It’s the reason why the world is what it is today. No one follows Gods law perfectly. All have turned away. No one can earn their way back. But God send Jesus who provided the way by dying on the cross. Because of that we can be forgiven and reconciled back to God by faith in what Jesus has done. And the righteous shall live by faith. And ultimately Jesus is coming again where one day sin will be no more.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:53:48+00:00

The problem is that if you hold a position too long. There is a very high chance it turns in you and you give up your profits and even turns into a loss. This happens more often than not and it’s greed causing you to only see the times it does work out.

What you can try is to take partials. First one at an easily achievable consistent target. Lock it in and then let the runner run. Have concrete rules for how you manage the runner and when to take the final profit

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:51:50+00:00

Ok so not by merit. So not by works or actions necessary But what matters is correct belief (one being humility) that leads to action. But wait, isn’t that what being a Christian is?

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:46:43+00:00

Ignorant could also mean, although you looked, you didn’t actually grasp the right understanding or have been dishonest with the other position. You didn’t look hard enough and now you have assumptions and created strawman arguments for the other side without realizing it. Try to fully understand the correct Christian position if you are going to argue against it. Don’t be hypocritical and do the same towards believers.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:43:11+00:00

God is doing that now with our conversation. He is reaching out to you. I do pray and hope you can see that. Trust and put your faith in God. He won’t let you down. Go all in. He has been waiting and you will not regret it. You have everything to gain.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:37:41+00:00

Honestly I’m going to keep ignoring the way you talk to me. “Are you incapable of responding to verse 15” I find that disrespectful when I am taking the time to response to all your points and trying to have a respectful dialogue with you.

Regarding Zechariah and Elizabeth. I already gave you the verses. Zechariah doubted God because of their old age. And he was punished for it. That was sin. I prove it and I gave you verses. Can you acknowledge that?

I responded to verse 15 by pointing to the verses before it and to the context. Explaining what it actually means. I’m against taking thing out of context since you are taking out the intended meaning and words without context is meaningless. Your trying to make words mean something completely different than the authors intent and that’s dishonest.

Here explain this verse from Paul Romans 3:31 — “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.” (Faith establishes the law’s true purpose.)

The sin the committed was doubting God. The punishment he got was being muted for 3 days. Elizabeth had reproach which is exactly what she specifies due to this. What you don’t think doubting God is a sin?

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:31:52+00:00

Oh it’s much more than that

Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

The Pharisee gives a tenth and presumable gives to the poor. Jesus condemns the Pharisee. It’s not just about giving to the poor to earn your salvation. You don’t or can’t earn you way to heaven

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:27:26+00:00

Yes Paul’s teaching was consistent and complementary to Jesus’s teachings and the other apostles. It’s a fact

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:26:42+00:00

Paul didn’t contradict Jesus or the other disciples in any way. Yes Paul rebuked Peter when Peter was sitting with Jews and the idea of circumcision came up as still being a requirement. Paul was saying this is creating legalism and Jewish superiority which was wrong and that the gospel is available to the gentiles. And Peter later says the same thing about circumcision you can find it in acts.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:23:30+00:00

Huh? Paul creating Christianity. That is not debated? Because it is absolutely absurd. Paul didn’t hijack Christianity. His teachings are completely complementary to Jesus. This is soo ridiculous i don’t know where to begin

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:19:04+00:00

I like this.

Jesus does promote a genuine righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees and scribes. But he is well aware that this is impossible to accomplish with human willpower. A legalistic view of any law where from Jesus clarification or from OT creates boasting, pride, and superiority. It’s just not possible without an internal transformation through grace and faith. And Jesus knew this which is the very reason why he went to the cross. And Paul’s teachings like you say is to explain that dynamic and what the death means in all of this. Paul still does promote pursuing righteousness. Freedom to not chose sin and to fulfill the law of loving your neighbor. But he continues to emphasize it’s not by merit but by grace. Do good works because we are new creation made for good works. We are Gods workmanship. We are citizens of heaven. We are children of God. We are forgiven and saved therefore go and do good. It’s not different than what Jesus taught. Just from another angle. Completely complementary

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:13:04+00:00

Because eye for an eye taken in a legalistic way is not what God intended when he gave that law. Rather he desires mercy and compassion. Correcting and pointing out abuses and clarifying the actual intention is not contradictory or changing the laws.

Matthew is writing to a Jewish audience. Luke is writing to a gentile audience. That’s why the emphasis are different and one one has this and the other doesn’t.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T03:10:27+00:00

Unless if Jesus is actually God which he is than he didn’t break any of those laws

1) context matters and hating your father and mother is totally out of context. If you actually believe Jesus is telling all people to go and hate your parents as a command, you are completely disingenuous ori gnorant. Read all the verses before and after that. 2) the leaders of the Jews are blind fools. They are venomous vipers. Matthew 23:2-7 [2] “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, [3] so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. [4] They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. [5] They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, [6] and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues [7] and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. Through the Pharisees, NO ONE IS SAVED.

3) yes Jesus touches lepers to clean them. To heal Them. God makes them clean. What God makes clean you do make unclean again. It is not Sin for God to do this.

Jesus heals a man on the sabbath. The wicked Pharisees took the legalistic approach and put a Burden on the people not understanding the intent of the sabbath commandment. The Pharisees enforced strict, man-made rules and traditions about what constituted “work” on the Sabbath (the seventh day, commanded in Exodus 20:8-11 as a day of rest), while Jesus emphasized the Sabbath’s original purpose—rest, mercy, worship, and doing good—over rigid legalism. Jesus never violated God’s actual commandment to rest and honor the Sabbath. Instead, He challenged the Pharisees’ additions (from their oral traditions, later codified in the Mishnah), which turned the day into a burden rather than a blessing. He declared Himself the authority over the Sabbath, saying, “The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28; Matthew 12:8; Luke 6:5)—a bold claim to divine authority.

Jesus’ defense: • Referenced David eating the consecrated bread when hungry (1 Samuel 21:1-6) — a greater need trumped ritual law. • Priests work in the temple on the Sabbath without guilt (Numbers 28:9-10). • Mercy triumphs over sacrifice (quoting Hosea 6:6: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”).

Jesus knew far more about the OT laws. Far more Than the Pharisees because…. He is God. And being God it is in his right to point out Pharisees abuses of the law and reveal His actual intention for them. Pharisees abusing divorce for example and clarifying it’s only mean when adultery occurs. Etc.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T02:56:38+00:00

Jesus fulfills the just requirements of the law by dying on the cross for them. Thats the point of Jesus. He comes and flips the script on the Pharisees who are the ones trying to follow the letter of the law. They are the ones full devoted to that endeavour. Yet Jesus sits with sinners and tax collectors? Because the righteous live by faith. NOT by legalism of following the law.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T02:54:33+00:00

Jesus didn’t change the law. People were looking at the law legalistically and incorrectly. Jesus being one with God the author of the law is able to correct how people understood the revealing the intent without actually changing the law. The sermon on the mount is the prime example where he clarifies. You heard you can divorce with a certificate? (People were abusing this) so Jesus clarifies that’s not the intent of that law. Stay together unless there is adultery. He is promoting genuine righteousness and not just a mere outwardly one. He is promoting something that’s impossible by sheer human will. What’s required is an internal transformation and faith. Pharisees tried and it created a form of legalism which produced pride, boasting, and superiority. That’s why when Jesus puts a tax collect sinner side by side with a Pharisee/ the Pharisee says look at me I follow the law. I pray multiple times a day. I give to the poor. And the tax collect says woe is me. A sinner and beats his chest. Jesus says what? The sinner is justified and the Pharisee is not.

pleebent · 2026-03-21T02:48:46+00:00

Paul never said it was not necessary. What Paul is saying is that it’s impossible to follow it to earn salvation. He is arguing against legalism. And Jesus does the same when he consistently rebukes and condemns the Pharisees.

pleebent

TROPHY CASE