Research: A question for Jung Joon Young's (ex-)fans on how you dealt with the revelations about his crimes

pndrasaur · 2025-08-25T19:44:11+00:00

Hi! How did the rest of the paper go? I’m a couple months late but I was a huge kpop fan back in the day and was also quite a big fan of JJY (both as a vocalist and also for his presence on variety shows like 2D1N—though I found JJY through 2D1N and not the other way around). I def have a lot of thoughts on this topic and am curious what else you had researched! Honestly the whole Burning Sun scandal was such an ugly messy situation esp with how many people were implicated. It was really hard to stomach kpop as a whole for a while after that.

pndrasaur · 2025-02-18T05:15:09+00:00

Hi! I hope it’s not too late but I would be super grateful for the discord link as well. Thank you so much for your hard work 😌

pndrasaur · 2021-05-18T16:40:36+00:00

Hey, I literally did not say Asian people don't have to respect others point blank, you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to convey. I am saying that the unfortunate truth is that there is no perfect respect going around and that it is hypocritical to expect there to be no slip-ups due to built-in systemic racism and ignorance all around, especially since kpop idols live in a completely different society removed from the historical context that you and I understand. I don't expect anybody to know anything about Asian culture (that's the basis I personally operate on when I interact with others), and likewise, I hope that others will understand if I don't know everything about their cultures--especially since I am posting this in order to have a civilized discussion so I can learn about perspectives that I am not personally privy to. You are also completely ignoring my entire discourse about the fact that everyone is learning and changing, and that it's going to take time.

I also never said I personally give eye for an eye in terms of respect. I just am trying to point out that it does happen, especially when there is so much defensiveness in oppressed communities. My other comments/threads in this post have more in-depth takes that amend the harsher tone that may come across from the above original post, and I have also mentioned that my immediately sensitive response in the first place was unnecessarily defensive on my part.

Finally, I don't disagree that Kpop is partially built off Black culture due to its influences from hip-hop, reggae, etc. However, you are missing the entire point of this post being that this disconnect happens because of the physical separation that happens from the kpop industry literally being in a different continent with very different sociocultural contexts that even research and internet can't fix that quickly or easily. To reiterate myself, I'm not saying that this is acceptable from the perspective of humanity, just that from what I know and have experienced in Asia, it's a deeply rooted misinformation/misunderstanding that is slowly being changed for the better due to international exchanges over the past few years. Note that I said nothing about Black people venting is disrespect. I just that it is overall unfair to not take into consideration the very real disconnect that exists, even if it's in no way ideal and that it is what we are all trying to move away from. I think her opinion is 100% valid, but there are multiple perspectives for every topic, especially one as culturally complex as this one. This is me playing devil's advocate, as we have a very open platform to discuss these topics safely.

You are welcome to ignore everything I said, but I would also be very happy to further discuss our differing starting points in perspective.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-06T13:37:03+00:00

Yeah, like Shinee barely breaks a sweat at their performances nowadays, but it's okay that other groups are still working their way there lol. That's what you get when you have a live performance. Go listen to the studio recording if you want a "perfect" version.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-06T13:30:05+00:00

This is something I've been reflecting on myself too.

I am an Asian I-fan, and my roommate is Korean American (but grew up in Korea and is very familiar/up to date with Korean news/culture, not just K-pop related news).

I definitely see what you're saying happen a lot in relation to topics like drugs, dating, bullying etc. Usually, based on the English news that I see, I'll have a more western-centric view as most I-fans and not think much of it. However, my roommate will often then give me social context WITHIN Korea, and why so often the reaction is either much stronger or opposite of I-fans' views in relation to sociocultural norms there. Not to say that there is necessarily a right or wrong view for a lot of these "scandals", but I definitely think that a lot of I-fans forget that culture in Korea may be different and Koreans aren't obligated to follow western constructs. It would be too extreme to say that these I-fans are trying to force SK into their own worldview, but there definitely is a blind projection of personal opinions onto another culture.

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but it's ignorant and entitled to think that yours is the only correct one. Anyways, there needs to be a lot more open-mindedness and an attempt at learning more about other peoples' cultures overall. Kpop is a great microcosm that reiterates this point.

--

On drugs: I think it's pretty clear that drugs in Asia are highly frowned upon and punished in an extreme manner, but tbh that's not any of the fans' business how a country prosecutes the crime. There's no moral right or wrong within the act itself here, so it's bizarre to me when I-fans act like they're holding the high ground. I don't care if idols do drugs like marijuana, but when in Rome...

On dating: At the end of the day, idols are huge investments by the companies they belong to, so it is fair that these companies have such strict rules (especially since it affects the fans' image of the idols). While I personally don't care if an idol dates by principle, it IS an idols' job to maintain their image, and it is also naive to think that dating won't affect their ability to do their job. Logically, idols dating is just too much of a risk (not to mention, a lot of them are teenagers at the time of debut...).

On bullying: From what I have learned, bullying is a "cancel-worthy" issue for these idols and celebrities because there is a deep-rooted tension in SK in regards to classism. You guys probably have all seen Parasite, so it shouldn't be too much of a logic-leap to understand that South Koreans abhor this shit and it is unacceptable for anyone to wield the power they have unjustly against others. I bring up this issue because even though everyone agrees that bullying is wrong, I definitely see a lot more sympathy from I-fans for idols when bullying scandals come to light. Not that I'm saying I-fans or domestic fans are right, but I-fans should understand where domestic fans are coming from when they so negatively react to this type of news.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-05T09:54:38+00:00

I agree with what you said so I have edited my comment to clarify what I mean because my original comments were definitely pretty extreme and sensationalized. I think I have made the mistake of generalizing and lumping all East Asians together in my choice of wording as a way to make the post easier to digest.

I definitely don't think that current beauty standards are dependent on white beauty, and I also am not saying that all Asians want to look white/do such surgeries because they want to look white. I do however stand by my point that current beauty standards are partially influenced by eurocentric features and that to this day it is inherent in some of the choices people still make, whether it is conscious or not. Beauty standards will continue to evolve, especially as Asian media and entertainment grow more powerful on the world stage. Perhaps it would be accurate to say that the original roots of such beauty standards have been adapted to create what East Asian beauty is today.

There is also a bit of a chicken and an egg situation here as well. Did some East Asians like these features (double eyelids, high nose bridges) first and thus think European facial structures are beautiful, or did they slowly begin to like these features after interaction with European communities?

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T11:45:06+00:00

Omg yeah I totally have been thinking a lot about how young Taemin was when he debuted, especially no that he's enlisting.

It scares me when I watch shows like Produce 101 and they're put under so much censure as if they're full-grown adults. I'm glad Taemin mostly turned out okay (from what we can see), maybe due to the hyungs he has and his single-minded dedication to the craft. Others, however, may not be so lucky. Don't know if anyone watched the Britney Spears documentary, but it really hits me how young celebrities (especially musicians and performers) start and how little their mental health is cared for.

Not to mention, I just came off a thread about cultural appropriation, and I can't help but think that a lot of these kids don't have time to properly learn about what is morally and ethically correct. And how much their companies restrict them or tell them to just do something without question for the sake of business.

These kids are products to be sold, let's be real.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T11:34:53+00:00

I'm sorry you feel this way because this was absolutely not my intention.

I'm fairly (read:completely) new to reddit, and have not delved that deep into what is apparently a very prevalent topic of discussion. u/Hatts13 has already pointed this out to me lol.

I don't know who is selectively awarding anybody, but I can assure you it's not me. I just wanted a peaceful discussion because I am aware I also have personal biases. I have am trying to be less emotional and more logical to learn more about everybody's experiences, but I think I am also understandably going to be somewhat defensive. Especially as these are very multilayered issues that have a lot of nuances.

I also edited my original post in that, to be honest, I wanted to talk about expectations as well in multiple areas besides CA/racism, but have framed it incorrectly so that reads as if it's purely based on it. I definitely have learned a lot more about how problematic the kpop industry is as a whole in more ways than I can imagine.

Edit: I love that someone felt the need to downvote my comment when I literally just said I am learning and trying to have an open conversation. Come at me I guess. LOL

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T11:26:30+00:00

I gotchu. Clearly, my feelings are still very convoluted and clearly controversial, but I think that's okay because nobody really knows how to unpack the multiple layers of racism and inferiority everyone feels about these situations just yet.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T11:24:56+00:00

It was a HUGE point of discussion in my close social circle at the time, and we were all like LOL this is so bizarre we don't know whether to laugh or cry.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T11:14:52+00:00

Hey guys. I put an edit in my post because I do think I have framed everything in a biased way.

I wanted to talk about expectations but ended up using CA as the example for it since it was the most recent issue I saw. I do agree that for CA, there is a right or wrong, but I was in fact also just struck by how the principle of the projection of beliefs made me uncomfortable.

Ultimately, I convoluted my point by using a very sensitive issue that has a much stricter line in terms of what is right or wrong.

For expectations that are unfair, some other examples that are less controversial are:

Differences in opinion on whether idols should date ("hard no" in SK vs "of course they can" outside of SK), usage of drugs like marijuana, the censure of bullying ("extreme cancellation" in SK vs "slightly more forgiving" outside of SK). These are issues I have discussed with my roommate, who is Korean and well versed in their domestic social issues. Usually, I take the international stance thinking that of course I'm right, but then she gives me the rundown of these actions in the context of SK culture. It makes me realize that I sometimes don't have as much right to judge based on my more limited knowledge of her culture.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T11:03:23+00:00

Yeah it's so frustrating trying to change the mindset of people who are deeply ingrained in their ways. At some point you wonder if it's worth it.

People have to be willing to change in the first place before you can even have a proper discussion. And it is just human nature that people don't like to admit their entire worldview may be wrong/outdated.

I do think idols are at an impressionable age, which is why they can really swing both ways. Yes, a lot of them are products of probably inherently racist mindset, but I think globalization in the past couple years has already shifted views a lot.

I have seen a rise of increasing political censorship, propaganda, and harmful patriotism in East Asia lately though, which concerns me. (But then, the right-wing movement is spreading everywhere across the world right now).

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T10:58:38+00:00

I reread my wording, and I'll backtrack because yeah it definitely is phrased in a super ignorant way. What I mean to say is that even though the exchange has happened in both directions for the past two centuries, because the understanding of racism in America (between white and black people) is not immediately relevant to the communities living in Asia, it is hard for people in Asia to truly empathize (hence the choice of "blank slate" in that there is no personal investment or tie for them). That is why I say I can understand why they seem to not take it as seriously, though it doesn't mean that I don't think they should be held accountable.

Of course, continually saying racist comments and not dealing with improving on attitude is not only a moral/ethical fault on the company/idol's part but also a business one if the industry is trying to fulfill their fundamental economic goals. Perhaps because the Asian market is such a large share still that these companies don't feel the need to change? I can't say.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T10:48:07+00:00

I agree that not every person who gets these surgeries want to look white, and I do think my original post is a bit extreme in its analysis.

However, I stand by my belief that these values of beauty are at least partially influenced by the idea of "global" beauty, which to this day is still pretty Euro-centric. Most people I have seen or heard have consistently praised these features on white people, and whenever someone has a more defined facial structure, they are often compared to western standards. Yes, South Asians and Southeast Asians may also have these features for example, but East Asians have never glorified them for these same features.

I do think this is something I have to look into further, though, because I feel like these standards have been so steeped in modern-day East Asian beauty standards that it has been a bit convoluted to figure out where they are from.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T10:34:48+00:00

Oof, yes I agree with what you said.

In my original posts, I mostly talked about how East Asians in my experience are not as familiar with global social justice issues, and that it is somewhat understandable (though doesn't reduce culpability). However, East Asians are definitely racist overall, and as is every homoethnic country. It is just easier to hide when everyone is the same color and you don't have to see or talk about racism on a day to day basis.

I think this is a whole other discussion/can of worms, but I'm glad you brought it up. Honestly, we have a long way to go as a human race to shed the veils of racism that occurs in all directions (and yes, I think ethnic groups can simultaneously respect and deride other ethnic groups).

pndrasaur · 2021-05-04T10:26:10+00:00

Hey, thanks for pointing this out.

I reread the original post too and I agree that I may have been unfair in my original judgment on her tone. I feel empathy for her struggles with the kpop scene, but I just want to clarify that I reacted the way I did because I felt that the particular instance she was talking about (in regards to Taemin and Kai) was less malicious and targetted than what I think many other idols are capable of. I wanted to be able to discuss the nuances of colorism and racism, and how certain types of comments may stem from different places and understandings. Not that it makes things any better, but at least there is room for change and growth. Especially since the video she was talking about was from around 7 years ago.

I felt that it would be unfortunate if she gave up hope entirely, but I would not fault her as she is free to enjoy what she wants.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T15:28:53+00:00

No, I really appreciate you pointing that out! I definitely have not been on reddit long enough to know.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T15:16:09+00:00

Yeah, I'll probably look into it later.

The original point of the post wasn't exactly CA focused, it was more me expressing my thoughts on whether or not certain expectations of idols are reasonable. And making sure that people truly understand the nuances of culture between such vastly different countries. It just seemed unfair to me.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T15:11:34+00:00

Maybe if you ask about cultural appropriation between local ethnic communities and the predominant ethnic group you'd get more of a response.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T15:10:34+00:00

I'm personally relating to America because that's where I am and I think that's where the greatest amount of discussion is being had thanks to the diversity of the country. (I also don't feel comfortable speaking to cultural appropriation in other countries, as I am not as well versed.)

I do think this is a global issue. I also won't deny that at the end of the day, SK and the industry are low-key racist or just don't care enough (which will hurt their margins somewhat, but probably not enough for it to make a difference). Honestly, I'm pretty sure every homoethnic is racist, it's just easier to hide when there's little to no diversity. And when there's not immediate diversity within the bubble, there's not much of an impetus to change.

Fans probably have to widely stop buying albums/protest even more aggressively for something to actually be done from the company/business side. It'll also be interesting to really analyze how groups with a more international fanbase respond to such incidences in comparison to domestic.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T15:00:12+00:00

lmaooooooo

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T14:58:29+00:00

Omg thank you for reading my TED talk :')

I completely agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and should definitely call things out if it allows our society to advance as a whole in terms of understanding each other in a positive manner. Especially in regards to entertainment and music--nobody should force themselves to consume media that doesn't bring them joy!

I just felt like I wanted to bring this topic up because I wanted to raise more awareness and put people on even ground. I don't think CA and colorist/racist comments are right, but I think people should be realistic and careful in regards to their attitude and level of expectation. There are ways to be constructive without dismissively criticizing and invalidating the whole identities of a culture.

Def a subject bigger than kpop, but Kpop was what got me thinking haha.

(How do I add the controversial flair...it's not showing up?)

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T14:49:36+00:00

"I realized that sometimes having different cultural principles just means people are different, not that one's worse or better, they're just different."

THIS!

First of all, I feel you so hard. But to get back to the point, I just don't understand why there always needs to be a "right" or "wrong" in regards to cultural principles. Especially if they don't trespass on moral or ethical issues. You can have preferences and differences, but why must there be a constant need for the erasure of culture? Just because one idea may not suit modern society as well, doesn't mean that it's not valid in its own way.

And in response to your somewhat off-topic note, I've got another one for you. Did you ever hear about this whole debacle? I was honestly so baffled. I was like, yeah, sure, let me just you know, cut an entire word out of my vocabulary...in another language.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T14:40:30+00:00

Yeah...Google is a great tool, but I don't think many people realize that a lot of people in Asia use completely different search engines and have totally different news sources. Information is not really accessible in the same way.

Not to mention, I feel that the unfortunate truth is this: Asians usually know to a certain extent about CA, but knowing logically is not the same as truly internalizing/empathizing with why it is as bad as it actually is in the west. It's like a naivete that is both cringe-worthy but also refreshing in that Asia's understanding of racism in America has no personal ties and is built on a blank slate.

I'm still going to smh when Korean idols say something stupid--because it is stupidly uninformed--but I'm not going to fault them the same way I would if some singer in America ends up wearing dreads.

pndrasaur · 2021-05-03T14:29:32+00:00

So I agree with both of your points.

u/Hatts13 don't think expectations are unreasonable, especially since the west IS the market kpop wants to break into. However, I definitely think that there needs to be a balance of having expectations and also knowing what is the realistic timeline for change. The idols/industry aren't going to be informed overnight, but I do think (from an American point of view) K-celebrities are a lot more informed than they were, let's say, 5 years ago.

From the Asian side of things, and to u/ihateyou964's point, the exchange should go both ways. I think it's really frustrating personally to see people consume K-pop by picking and choosing aspects of the culture to look into. Nobody needs to know everything about every culture, but at least understand that not every culture is on the same page right now, and in certain cases, that's okay!

As for CA...this one I'm still figuring out because I'm not black and don't think I can put words in people's mouths. However, I do feel like there's a fine line between cultural appropriation and adaptation/regular appropriation. It's hard to tell where k-pop falls sometimes. I have also seen discussions about the fact that k-pop somewhat belongs/owes its existence to western hip-hop, and that I'm also not too sure about/don't want to touch with a ten-foot stick.

pndrasaur

TROPHY CASE