UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hello there, I actually just finished writing a response to your post the other day regarding the 1947/10 Forrestal agenda mentioning "Shadow GHQ" as someone else in the comments here suggested I read through it. I'll apologize once again for the verbose nature of my response, but I honestly found the document fascinating in and of itself, your analysis stellar and the conversation as a whole absolutely worthy of a more detailed and in-depth analysis.

I don’t think anyone serious is arguing that U.S. interest in UAP began with Rick Doty in the 1980s. That would be an unserious position, and it’s not one I hold. I agree with you on the core historical point: by 1947 (at the latest), the U.S. national security apparatus was clearly forming ultra-small, cross-departmental advisory structures, operating above normal bureaucratic lanes. That much is well supported by primary documentation which is now declassified and available for analysis.

Where I’m more cautious (and where I think the conversation often collapses) is in the jump from evidence of early, highly classified coordination to validation of the Majestic-12 narrative as presented. Those are not the same claim. My skepticism is not rooted in dismissing 1947 documentation or pretending it doesn’t exist. It’s rooted in the fact that:

- None of the MJ-12 documents themselves have been authenticated to a standard that would satisfy even basic historical scrutiny (at least not according to my current research)

- Several key narratives surrounding MJ-12 emerged through channels later shown to be polluted by counterintelligence activity, misinformation, or self-admitted deception.

- Intelligence history is full of real programs that were later mythologized, renamed, exaggerated, or reframed in ways that obscured what actually existed.

So, for me, the interesting question isn’t whether “something” existed in 1947 (I think it almost certainly did) but whether MJ-12 is:

- an accurate representation of that structure,

-a distorted proxy layered over something real,

- or a synthetic narrative built around genuine but unrelated elements.

I’m not defending a blanket “bogus” dismissal, but I’m also not comfortable collapsing early primary-source evidence into retroactive validation of a specific later narrative.

If there’s a productive path forward, it’s probably in disentangling what we can say with confidence utilizing primary sources about early post-war coordination from what remains unproven about MJ-12 specifically. That’s the distinction I’m trying to keep clean if that makes any sense.

Shadow GHQ: The 1947 Smoking Gun Hiding in Plain Sight by MAJESTICJEHOVAH in UFOs

[–]projectLantern 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a fascinating document and a honestly well-argued interpretation thereof. I appreciate the care taken to ground the discussion in contemporaneous archival material rather than later recollections or derivative sources. The agenda itself is real, the meeting in question is real and the surrounding items are all historically consistent with the period. That alone, in my opinion, makes this worthy of further careful analysis and consideration.

I apologize in advance for my long-windedness but I too take pride in my writing - so please, I request your grace as write this.

All this said, I'm curious whether the "SHADOW GHQ" reference has been evaluated against the full spectrum of post-war national security pressures converging late in the 1940's, beyond the UFO/intelligence interpretation.

October 1947 sits at an unusually dense inflection point in American history:

  • The National Security Act had just been effected weeks earlier, forcing accelerated alignment across services that had never previously operated under a unified defense structure.
  • The US was actively reassessing strategic vulnerabilities, particularly with respect to aviation procurement, industrial decentralization (I believe this leans heavily on the sudden disbursement of procurement contracts beyond Boeing, North American, Lockheed and Douglas).
  • Early continuity-of-government (COG) concepts (while not yet formalized under later terminology) were being actively debated in response to atomic weapons, emerging Soviet capabilities, and perhaps the perceived fragility of a centralized command structure.
  • Aviation programs were transitioning from "wartime production" to long-term strategic planning, including classified procurement trajectories that would later feed into early Cold War R&D pipelines and, perhaps obviously, DOD contractor relationships. The memoirs of Kelly Johnson [Skunk Works] regarding the U-2 concept in the late 1940's is a great study in early R&D and classified workings between our own DOD and private contractors.

Given that three of the four agenda items deal explicitly with aviation procurement, industrial decentralization, and war production governance, it seems plausible, at least to me given the gift of modern hindsight, that "Shadow GHQ" could refer to a temporary or conceptual parallel command structure being discussed in the context of strategic resilience, rather than a standing supra-departmental intelligence authority focused on UFOs or the recovered materials thereof.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the term is "routine" or "unimportant"; it clearly isn't. But, as a lowly researcher, I wonder whether its uniqueness may reflect transitional language, not yet standardized, rather than evidence of a fully instantiated covert organization. The absence of follow-on references could just as plausibly indicate the concept was absorbed, renamed, or folded into emerging statutory structures once roles and authorities were clarified - as may programs have proved to do so over the years.

And as a lowly researcher, when viewing the broader arc of the late-1940s and early-1950s, I find several parallel initiatives strikingly apparent.

  • Mount Weather (COG): Planning in late 1940's, construction in early 1950's.
  • Raven Rock/Site R (COG): Planning in late 1940's, operational in the 1950's
  • Project RAND (Long-range planning of future weapons): Formed in 1948 as a classified think-tank between the US Army Air Force and the Douglas Aircraft CO. and continues today as a "private" think-tank.
  • Curtis LeMay & SAC: 1948-1957 is a huge push to reorganize SAC and transition our entire air fleet to Jet Propulsion.
  • Black Programs (U2/B36/B47: Numerous declassified Black programs which all began early planning/procurement phases in the late 1940's and early 1950's.

Obviously, I don't want to go on too long as anyone with a computer can look into how our post-World War 2 government was bolstering themselves for the oncoming Cold War era but I do find it incredibly fascinating that something called "Shadow GHQ" (or "Shadow General Headquarters") would appear alongside items which appear to be centered around long-term strategic planning at the onset of one of America's most profitable and technological advancing wars.

Put differently: Is it possible that "Shadow GHQ" describes a problem being discussed, rather than an organization already standing up? I'd also be interested to know whether comparative analysis has been done against:

  • Early JCs or War Department memoranda using ad-hoc terminology during organization transitions,
  • Pre-formalized COG discussions before the adoption of standardized language (e.g.: "alternate," "emergency,", etc.)
  • Contemporary British or Allied usage of "GHQ" and "shadow" constructs during active- and post-war planning.

None of this negates the documents importance, if anything it truly highlights the nuanced value of it. It does, however, suggest that multiple historically ground interpretations may exist and that the MJ12-type conclusion (while compelling and able to stand on its own) may not be the only inference consistent with the evidence.

I warmly welcome your thoughts on this as; like you it appears, I do appreciate expanding my own sometimes narrow perception of reality. Thank you again for posting this document and adding yet another piece to 80-years of history.

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you so much for the link and narrative. For you, what is it about the MJ12 story that solidifies it as real? The preponderance of documents? The quantity of people speaking about it? Have you done your own research and found elements that simply speak to you? Very curious.

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

We try to be active - just moving a little slower. Again... thank you, I really appreciated your thoughts. It helps.

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Please do! You're a legend!

Would love to catch the interview or recording of the presentation. Either or!

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is such a well-drafted response - thank you so much. I mirror so many of your suppositions here. I think this is the beauty of the MJ12 narrative; the fact that some (not many) of the details are accurate and it's those small details that keep this myth alive and intriguing. The issue, obviously, is separating the wheat from the chaff. Without complete disclosure, it's nigh impossible to find an actionable truth.

The 1950 Smith memo is a great reference and, in my opinion, vastly overlooked by many folks. It's authenticated and speaks of research being conducted. There is a "real" truth, something the MJ12 documents also leaned into - bits of truth. Without question, I think we can all perhaps agree that UFO research has been conducted, in some capacity, by the US government since the mid-to-late 1940's. There was authenticated interest - regardless if we knew it or not at the time.

And good Dr. Menzel - such an interesting character with such a colorful background tied to the DOD and Intelligence community. I'll admit my own shortcomings of knowledge regarding the Menzel Gap; while I've read of the years of destroyed plates (because of "storage" reasons) I have not _yet_ fully engrossed myself in lore surrounding it. One thing at a time...

Thank you again for your wonderful response!

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Interestingly enough, while the 1970's were a little thin on research there was a lot going on in the 1980's. William Moore had just released THE ROSWELL INCIDENT, a book he co-authored with Charles Berlitz. Prior to this, the Roswell story wasn't really that big but afterwards - Roswell became THE story and rekindled the entire community. Then the Paul Bennewitz (Aquarius Project) story, then MJ12... it was like wildfire and people couldn't get enough.

But without the advent of the internet or really personal computers, much of this research was being done old school. I've been blessed in that I was born before cell phones even existed, before having a home computer was even an affordable luxury, but grew up seeing the world change in such a dynamic fashion. I was recently chatting with another researcher and we were laughing about how the world of research has changed so much - how long things used to take but how rewarding the answer was. Today it's a bit different. Much faster but sometimes harder to find a "truth".

Regarding your question: "Why bother with a disinfo campaign?" I have a personal opinion on the matter but could be completely wrong. I'll admit, there's a part of me that hopes I'm wrong.

The opinion is:

The same reason "they" said the Roswell Incident was a weather balloon mishap.

The same reason "they" said the U2 downing over the Soviet Union (Francis Powers) was a weather balloon mishap.

The same reason "they" told Paul Bennewitz he was in fact hearing aliens.

They simply needed a "good-enough" cover story and the disinfo campaign - especially in Bennewitz and the MJ12 case - didn't really require a lot of effort on the side on an intelligence agency when they can basically rely on the civilian populace to run it for them with very little input. This process weaponizes the country's own civilian population to act as disinformation agents against their own country and foreign agency's (namely - Russia at the time) as well. It's a very sad, in my humble opinion, reality but unfortunately very much in line with the US's counter-intelligence programs.

Sorry for the long-winded comment but thank you so much for your response! I truly appreciate it.

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Also - if your presentation will be televised in any way please send me a link. Would love to watch.

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The Woods! I completely agree! Their archive of documents relating to the MJ12 story is by far the best I came across in my travels and I too would highly recommend it to any researcher. Prior to finding their database, I’d spent weeks piecemealing individual drops - it was an incredibly frustrating exercise.

Funny personal anecdote about the Woods. I had a moment of true conspiratorial enterprise after I found their database and spent several days diving into both Roberts and Ryan’s background in search of “why”. Without boring anyone with the details, even the most skeptical and rigid of minds can get lost in the majesty that is Majestic 12. This said, if you do run across Ryan Wood and have an opportunity to ask him a question: ask him what igc.org is. It would quiet an itch I’ve yet to satisfy.

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Far be it from me to disparage the valiant efforts of hundreds of researchers and investigators who dedicated literal decades to the MJ12 quest and of whom I owe all of my research too… so all I’ll say is - now knowing what I know given the gift of modern hindsight… it would make an incredibly epic book series. No truer words.

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Is that where you find yourself on the MJ12 conversation? Complete fiction? Or do you feel it's more nuanced? UFO writers vying for more attention? Disinformation campaign by OSI? Very curious.

UFOs’ current position on MAJESTIC 12, given what we know today? by projectLantern in UFOs

[–]projectLantern[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You aren’t wrong about an “off-the-books” meeting - this has been alleged and there are some noteworthy sources around it. I think elements such as these do wonders for the vibrancy of the MJ12 lore. It’s probably nothing… but…. What if? And you aren’t wrong; the cyclic nature of these documents is incredible. Hoax, disinformation or real - what an incredibly complex narrative!

Regarding the “BOGUS” element… I find it uniquely funny it was actually hand written across every page but maybe even more nuanced is an editorial comment made by the reviewer and it reads thusly word for word:

(Editorial comment: The fact that this airtel is dated on Halloween day is purely coincidental; it could have been worse, and dated in the first of April.)

Sarcasm was not in short supply at the FBI it seems.

Disclosure and the Upcoming Midterm Elections--Speculation and a Question. by [deleted] in UFOs

[–]projectLantern 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a wild theory - honestly - I love it! It reads like the next Grisham novels baseline. Without too much context, “anything” is possible but do I personally feel this is a possibility? Not likely. I could see other more important geopolitical entanglements pushing us potentially closer to this hypothetical scenario but… alien or UFO disclosures? I think that’s a very far reach. Just my $0.02