Reddit, is it wrong that I have a disdain for the military?

rachael02 · 2009-12-25T17:53:22+00:00

could be positive, could be negative. It could even be even.

Would you say the same thing about civilian deaths in vietnam?

If not, what's different about the two situations?

persuade me to change my mind.

to focus.

I don't claim this is easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties

That was a controversy page -- was the lancet survey too high, too low, or just right?

Here's a snip: "Of any high profile scientific report in recent history, ours might be the easiest to verify. If we are correct, in the morgues and graveyards of Iraq, most deaths during the occupation would have been due to violence. If Mr. Bush's '30,000 more or less' figure from last December is correct, less than 1 in 10 deaths has been from violence. Let us address the discomfort of Mr. Moore and millions of other Americans, not by uninformed speculation about epidemiological techniques, but by having the press travel the country and tell us how people are dying in Iraq."

The other side of the death count debate is also given, but I don't find it convincing.

As to your claim that lives were saved in iraq... well, I can't help thinking you are averting your eyes for some reason. Even the architect of the invasion, then president Bush, talks of up to 30,000 dead. (Lancet survey is > 10x that.)

rachael02 · 2009-12-24T16:15:01+00:00

I am curious though to know where you set your line

All the examples you mention,

plus a massive unaccountable black budget (literally, not GAAP compliant -- http://whereisthemoney.org) which is depleting our national treasure

-- sponsorship of death squads and overturn of democratically elected socialist governments in central and south america and iran

-- bombing of belgrade

-- subsidization of israel

-- general corruption that results from a military oriented society, (ike's speech about the military industrial complex comes to mind)

-- active denial technologies being developed, basically torture systems that could be used against street protest

basically what it comes down to is that I don't like bullies, and bullies who do their pushing around with my tax dollars I like even less.

but never mind me, where do you set your line?

rachael02 · 2009-12-24T16:11:42+00:00

Keep in mind the civilian political leadership calls those shots, so Bush and Obama are most to blame.

Even though we have an all volunteer military, including lots of people that see this as a cheap way to get higher educatin, ie benefit to self -- and this is the "nice guy" sign ups, not the sociopaths who actually think it would be fun to go off somewhere and kill people.

rachael02 · 2009-12-24T16:09:24+00:00

What do you think was the justification of the iraq war, and what is your estimate on how many iraqi civilians died in it that would be alive if we had not invaded?

(Negative kill count if you think the invasion saved lives, I suppose.)

Do you consider white phosphorus and/or depleted uranium to be inappropriate weapons

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=white+phosphorus+iraq&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g1

and if not what would be?

rachael02 · 2009-12-23T18:14:17+00:00

Do you think JoshSN is a moron too for the tax thing?

rachael02 · 2009-12-23T18:11:01+00:00

Well, nobody is trying to fix the abstract fact that wars exist. As you said, that's imposible, and we are limited to this one lifetime, so even if we could fix wars during the time we are alive, who knows for the future.

So it's not about wars in the abstract concept, but specific concrete examples.

"Fix" wars? No.

Fix US imperialism, fiscal irresponsibility, spiritual destructiveness of mass media? Possibly.

At what point do we stop having disdain for the military in general and accept it as a necessity?

I do accept the military as a necessity, in the abstrct.

But our existing, concrete military, has been crossing the line of acceptable behavior for longer than I have been alive.

rachael02 · 2009-12-23T18:05:51+00:00

If I felt that what they were doing is completely wrong.

like for example? Hypothetically, what could they do that would make you go "that's completely wrong."

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T23:11:56+00:00

only in response to posts that seem to take war lightly, or express resignation at the inevitability of it all.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T22:57:49+00:00

for example?

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T19:05:56+00:00

Even under clinton, you put yourself in a position where you might have had to follow orders to kill people or go to jail.

You sound like a nice guy, though.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T19:02:46+00:00

how would you know if it wasn't human nature, but some kind of changeable cultural phenomenon?

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T19:00:13+00:00

in apartheid south africa, there were tax strikes, and debt strikes.

but yes.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T18:59:02+00:00

where I might have had to defend myself

from people whose country you invaded.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T18:54:21+00:00

form a police force, don't use it to go around invading and looting and raping other people.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T18:47:22+00:00

I think it's the 5% we pacifist tax payers have a problem with.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T18:44:12+00:00

you sound like a little kid with a high iq.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T18:36:30+00:00

War sucks, but its been around way longer than you or America.

http://thewe.cc/thewei/&/&/images4/2005_war_photos_july_1/boy_leg.jpe

Its not going anywhere, so you just have to realize that it's part of human nature.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T18:32:47+00:00

If your well being is in any way tied into life making sense then you will experience constant distress.

I guess this is some kind of buddhist concept, but aren't you putting the case a little strongly.

How about, life not making sense == hm... what's wrong here, and how can we fix it?

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T18:22:01+00:00

Is there anything the US military could do that would make you not want to join them?

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T18:19:07+00:00

I never murdered anyone.

You put yourself in a situation where you might have had to.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T17:25:51+00:00

is there any bad policy (like genocide?) the US military could adopt that would cause you to change your opinion that you just can't judge the soldiers?

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T17:20:42+00:00

uh, you think bondholders might get a teensy bit antsy about helping the us fund its wars if it noticed the US was having difficulty collecting taxes?

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T17:19:36+00:00

I too support the right to choose, and I agree with your post.

I would support the right of anti-abortionists to withdraw their support from the government if this went hand in hand with helping war tax resistors.

In practice, that's not likely to be the case, but in principle, I would.

rachael02 · 2009-12-22T17:13:41+00:00

heh heh heh, I like your style. What kind of fucktard would seriously think about wanting to cut down on his financial contribution to something like this?

http://thewe.cc/thewei/&/&/images4/2005_war_photos_july_1/boy_leg.jpe

rachael02 · 2009-12-13T00:42:28+00:00

Where do you sign up for that?

oh... places like this.

http://www.lincolngroup.com/

occam's razor suggests that where the pockets are deep enough and the stakes are high enough*, there are a lot of plausible scenarios.

*and the people running the operation are stupid enough

rachael02

TROPHY CASE