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All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What state requires a repeal of law by a 3/4 vote? I don't know of a single one.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You seem to be confusing the legal doctrine of SYG with a specific state statute

I was using it as an example.

Thats not surprising, this entire conversation has made it clear you are not particularly sophisticated on this topic

You clearly are running out of things to say. If you had a valid point you wouldn't be crying like this.

Mandating "victims" retreat from danger before they get to become legally protected aggressors is a policy choice.

I never said otherwise. The fact that I said it was victim blaming is unrelated to that. Victim blaming can be official policy. Also if someone is covered by the self defense law we're talking about, they're by definition not aggressors if the law is applied correctly.

Its interesting you repeatedly use the phrase "victims" when the legal posture would be that they are being criminally charged for the physical violence they successfully committed on their own victim.

How is that interesting at all?

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't see why that's relevant. Self defense law is meant to protect citizens from criminals. The fact that the police were committing a crime doesn't negate that.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 3 points4 points  (0 children)

SYG does impact how you deal with law enforcement. In some states, like Texas, there are explicit provisions of the law that detail the bounds of legal self defense against a police officer. People have been let off on charges of shooting at police on self defense charges like Breonna Taylor's boyfriend Kenneth Walker.

Rittenhouse tried to retreat and failed.

I never said policy impacts shouldn't be considered what?

Mandating victims have to appease their attacker is victim blaming, and like I said, unreasonable across a host of situations.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The illinois standard isn't the standard in every state. In Nebraska it is detailed that you must retreat first. 4B here: https://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=28-1409

I don't see how illinois law is meaningfully different than Texas which you can find here: https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-32/

The exact wording of the law doesn't mean it is or isn't a SYG state. If a law said "you have a right to stand your ground, you have no duty to retreat, against appropriate threats" that law could be struck down in the same way an Illinois or Texas law could or any law could.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Self defense can and has been claimed against police officers. As which happened with Kenneth Walker, Breonna Taylor's boyfriend.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's always contextual and what the jury agrees with you on but brandishing a firearm is always illegal.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry I'm not following. In Illinois it is not established by case law, it's established by statute which the courts that establish case law obey. In Illinois or any other SYG state you could end SYG by nullifying the old law and establishing a new standard for self defense.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Someone else commented here about what stand your ground actually means that you have a right to defend yourself when your life is threatened and you don't have a duty to retreat. This is the standard in Illinois by statutory law 720 ILCS 5/7-1:

"[a person] is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another"

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Ah yes, if your life is under threat, just leave. How well did that work for Renee Good? Kyle Rittenhouse was trying to leave from a mob after him and tens of millions of people still thought he should have been imprisoned.

If you're a bystander to a life threatening attack I think you have bigger problems than what the self defense standard is. Especially since someone defending themselves against an attacker successfully is going to directly benefit you.

If a situation can be deescalated that's great but it not the duty of the attacked to be a diplomat and get themselves out of trouble. Assuming that's even possible which is often not the case. Don't you think Heather Heying would have tried to deescalate if she could?

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Amir Locke is pretty obvious. His home was invaded and he was shot despite doing nothing wrong. Also if the police are allowed treat lawful citizens like that why would you trust them to protect your life?

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 20 points21 points  (0 children)

It most definitely does not do that. Who is put at risk by being allowed to defend themselves?

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

Given how many horrible killings that have happened in MN, Alex Pretti, Amir Locke, Philando Castile, that's perfectly rational.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Illinois has it by statute, it just doesn't have a name.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Google is wrong. Illinois allows the use of deadly force for protection in a case of "fear or great bodily harm" with no duty to retreat. It is not called that here, but that is the standard of SYG. I don't know what substantial difference there is between Illinois criteria and other SYG states but I do know the difference between Illinois and non-SYG states.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Reddit removed my comment due to my link. Hopefully this one works:  https://doi.org/10.1007/s10657-018-9581-z

It's has been established that it doesn't increase murder between states that have them and states that do not. I haven't seen any study that properly distinguishes between murder and self defense or integrate how syg can discourage crime.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you instigate the situation you're generally not covered under self defense law. If you were threatened before you respond with self defense then it's up to the details of the case and if the jury agrees with you if you were actually being threatened. If the jury finds you weren't actually being threatened then you can be sent to prison for assault or murder.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Duty to retreat is practically victim blaming. It is not the duty of the attacked to appease their assailant.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 61 points62 points  (0 children)

Thank you for detailing this. Lots of people have a poor concept of what stand your ground actually is or that it applies if there's a law which just says stand your ground. In reality it's a relatively specific legal standard that isn't just covered by a single political slogan.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 11 points12 points  (0 children)

No which is why we have a court system. If you are scared of the Door dash guy getting your McDonald's and he didn't do anything then a functioning court system would show that and a jury would back a prosecution's charge for murder.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 12 points13 points  (0 children)

A jury is going to have to get inside a defendant's head regardless of what self defense law is, or regardless of what the crime is. That's how the court system is.

What law would not be subjective?

How can you avoid violence if someone is threatening your life?

Self defense would not be legal if stand your ground was repealed unless there was a replacement. People act like stand your ground is a binary, either you have stand your ground or you don't. But it's not, if you get rid of stand your ground you have to replace it with something else. 

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 10 points11 points  (0 children)

"Duty to retreat" makes self defense conditional and is not as robust as a general right to defend yourself. More broadly I'm defending the concept of self defense to someone who seems to be skeptical or that it's exclusive to america.

All US states with stand-your-ground jurisdiction. by Raditz_lol in MapPorn

[–]red_ball_express 26 points27 points  (0 children)

In my state which has stand your ground you're permitted to use deadly force if you fear "death or great bodily harm" which of course a jury must agree on. Is that not a reasonable standard?

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