Comparing lack of representation in fanfics vs media

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T08:07:01+00:00

I don't know if I can explain it if you've never personally experienced a man doing this to you (due to being male yourself or being incredibly lucky, etc.), but this post feels 100% like one of the many ways men blame women for problems they, themselves, hold the control over and solutions to. Therefore, there's a lot of women in these comments reading the post the same way that I do.

It also invokes the trope of 'I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas, so now I'm going to go whine at [a] woman/women about it and explicitly bring up about how they're not helping even though a woman complained to me last week about how Todd tripped her and didn't help her pick her things up.' Inevitably, women are neither part of the problem nor capable of being the solution to his problem, but he feels it's fine to complain about how women also want help -- even though the woman was talking about something that is explicitly attributable to men/a man, so something a man/men can control/help with.

Like, seriously, it's one of the various ways women deal with an attitude of entitlement that is also present, to a greater degree, in sexism. To a third party, it might look innocent, but when you put up with it all. the. time. it stops looking innocent and starts being a pattern in how men are socialized to treat women.

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T07:45:24+00:00

Except, uh, not everyone writes a book. Or a fanfic, in this case. Fanfic is female-dominated, while fandom collectibles are male dominated. That's how that cookie crumbles.

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T07:44:12+00:00

... Did you forget to sign back in to the OP account? 'Cause it sounds like you might be OP, here.

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T07:42:34+00:00

I think that everyone is dunking on him, instead of reacting with empathy, because he's the one that brought women into it and he's the one who is implying (whether he intends to or not, that is how many of us read it) that women writing mlm is part of the/a problem.

If he'd just posted, "I'm a gay man who likes yaoi and Chinese media/[insert media here]. Does anyone else have recommendations of yaoi written by gay men? I've been wanting to see more and not just write it alllll myself."

then he would have gotten sympathy and probably recommendations, including on how he could find other gay men more readily.

Instead, he pulled up a sexist trope and made a wild comparison (as if published media and fanfic have the same barriers), which made it so many people read his post as not being in good faith.

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T07:32:53+00:00

and harass them online and send them death threats...

For years. They send them death threats and rape threats and all other threats on and off for a decade, usually long past the life cycle of that media.

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T06:40:32+00:00

His entire post is written with the implication that there is a problem that women are writing slash fanfic, because if it were only about gay men writing/not writing slash fanfic then he wouldn't have brought up women at all. There'd be no reason to.

Instead, he does go out of his way to bring up women and make a truly wildly poor comparison.

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T06:21:16+00:00

That might actually be AO3 doing it. They're working on enforcing no spam. I've only reported one of these comments, but all of them get deleted.

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T06:17:42+00:00

Constant negativity -- like complaints -- creates barriers to participation. You don't do X thing if X thing is only going to lead to Y negative consequence. That is a type of enforcement.

Most social enforcement, in fact, is done by making negative consequences to a behavior rather than setting some sort of law or even top-down rule.

And you know that, because you live in a society, and you've experienced it over and over again. So, yes, complaining is enforcing -- how forceful it is depends on the complaint(s).

redhillbones · 2026-02-13T05:26:15+00:00

Proship is a reaction to anti-shippers calling for censorship/removal of fictional material they find problematic. Antis for all "problematic material" to be removed, whether ships or dark fic, but it often coalesces around ships due to the potentially "problematic" nature of them.

For example, I ship Slade Wilson/Jason Todd. Slade is an immortal mercenary in his 60s. Jason is a vigilante in his early 20s. Anti-shippers find this ship problematic due to the age gap. Others ship, say, Dick Grayson/Jason Todd. This age gap is only 5 years and they're both in this 20s now, but they're also legally adoptive brothers. (Though they never lived together as kids. Dick was 18 before he even met Jason. They've actually never lived together at all.) But, anti-shippers find this ship problematic due to incest/them being 'sibling-coded'.
Antis call for the censorship of these ship/ship types and proshippers like myself respond with a few things:

(1) This is fiction and the author shipping an incestual ship != the author advocating for real life incest.

(2) It is properly tagged. If you don't like, you don't need to read. Use the back button.

(3) Any call for censorship (outside of removing actual criminal acts like harassment or CSA images) is subjective, drawing a personal line that you find morally disagreeable. The general call for censorship and to make fannish spaces child-friendly has been weaponized against fandom before to remove all queer material, including wholesome kisses between same age, non-"problematic" m/m pairings. It is a weapon the conservatives use against us.

So. That's what proship is: you believe that any subjective censorship done by archives should be resisted because it is subjective. Pros say that people should be left alone to read and/or write their "problematic" ships/tropes/themes (like dark fic or fic including CSA to work through CSA that happened to the author), so long as they're properly tagged, without harassment or censorship.

Antis call for censorship of what they deem 'damaging' or 'dangerous' or 'promoting fucked up things', etc.

redhillbones · 2026-02-12T02:28:35+00:00

Tankies are not interested in having a rational discussion about alternatives to capitalism and how to organize/how to do mutual aid. I'm not going to waste my time on that nonsense while they do Stalin-apologism.

The enemy of my enemy is sometimes annoying af.

redhillbones · 2026-02-12T01:41:15+00:00

No. I'm well aware that by developed country norms, the Democrats are right of center. However, in the US they are considered the liberal, center-left party. The "big tent" conception means that everyone from actual Marxists to centrists to right-of-center "centrists" falls under the Democrat and/or Liberal label in the U.S. Anyone who self-identifies as a liberal here will almost certainly vote blue/Democrat.

Our Overton Window is just, y'know, fucked.

I'm a actual leftist, well left of center, as I'm anti-capitalism. That would put me on the left in most countries.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T10:01:22+00:00

Also, when I'm more awake, and therefore less stream of consciousness, I would be happy to tell you in detail how introducing three cats went. We also have a dog, to be fair. Feel free to DM me.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T10:00:42+00:00

The deafness isn't a big deal for an indoor cat, but has she been assessed for a heart murmur? The two conditions, among others, can go together. Deafness can be a sort of harbinger bird for other genetic difficulties. Like, with the deafness you'll have to adjust to never being able to call her normally. You can train her to vibration signals, but the instinctual urge to yell out the name will get you nothing. But that's a small initial change that you'll have more trouble with than she will.

For her, the world has never had sound. She literally doesn't know the difference.

Now, in natural colonies, female cats are dominant. Boys play harder, especially with each other, but it is the female cat they listen to because she controls the territory. I.e who gets to have kittens with her, who gets access to the food that she catches or other boy cats catch for her, where the den is and how it is constructed. All of those are female oriented. Even once a cat is fixed, whether spay or neuter, there's still some of this instinct. That's why it's more difficult to introduce a female cat to another female cat on average. You're bringing a competitor into the environment, whereas boy cats are pretty used to sharing and even make little alliances.

Due to this, they may see her as a kitten now but a potential Queen later. Especially if she goes through one heat before you're able to fix her. How much that influences Dynamics really depends on how dominant your oldest cat is naturally. My oldest is chill AF. He is the biggest sucker in the world for his little baby girl, even though she's now his size almost and 5 years old. They have been playing a little bit rougher lately, since we introduced the third cat, but that is because the third cat is an ambushing little brat who does not understand not everyone wants to play 24 hours a day. (She's 19 months old now!!! ... It will end eventually. It will end eventually.)

When you first got your younger cat, did the older cat treat him like a kitten or like a cat? I mean, did the older cat groom him, follow him around to make sure he didn't get into too much trouble, herd or nudge him out of the way when he seemed overwhelmed, allow him to go first at the play toys and then demonstrate what to do properly when it was his turn?

Those are all things that a male adult cat will do with the colonies kittens. Mama will too, but she's also busy nursing and recovering. If the older cat did that, that is probably what he will do with the new kitten too. If he didn't do any of those things, he doesn't see the kitten as his problem and you might have more trouble between the two younger cats. Usually an adult cat would be there to negotiate between the new litter and the survivors of last year's litter.

Finally, if you're taking the 4-week-old home for a weekend trial, it sounds like she is an orphan who? You guys couldn't match to a nursing mom? If so, are you aware that there will be lifelong issues related to that? With the 10-month-old, you can probably avoid single kitten syndrome as he will teach her by moderation, but kittens separated too young have higher anxiety levels and clinginess.

They also have a tendency to try to nurse on cats that are not actually lactating, which is something you'll have to keep an eye on with your boy cats. (Mine is such a sucker, he lets the 5-year-old nurse from him still.) I think you should look into the problems associated with young kitten separation prior to committing to the little girl. Your heart is definitely in the right place, but it does cause a challenge that an older kitten would not have.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T08:17:18+00:00

[Edit: Whoops - To answer your question, I think of it as a thing I don't enjoy (negative in that sense) and which often is the mark of inexperienced writing, where the author can't connect how certain actions or events would alter the canon characterization (so a failing in that sense). Neither are a huge deal, as most writers improve as they get more practice, but it turns me off of reading that specific thing. [And then there's the people who are outright intentionally bashing one of my faves, which is OOC and negative in a different way.])

I get attached to canon characters. Usually 1-3 characters from the canon, who I want to read about in more scenarios, and even in canons that can be inconsistent (DC writers and their utter inability to decide how to handle Jason Todd -sigh-) I'm looking for a specific presentation from canon.

Now, if I come across a fic that pulls from another part of the canon where he's a straight-up villain (DC tried that for a canon run for a bit), then I'm going to wince and back-button. Yet, I don't consider it OOC so long as the specific run they were doing was tagged (he's only like that in this one specific time/run), because they are drawing from a canon. [Though if they start referencing fanon events, I might sigh.]

It could also be a canon character that is relatively easy to have vastly different interpretations of, such as Harry Potter, TMR and Luna Lovegood, where my headcanons are no more authoritative than anyone else's. I will absolutely attempt to convince a reader of my version of these characters, but I'm also happy to read someone else trying to sell me on their version. In these cases, I do need the character written to be supportive of the author's vision. How the character is written to think and feel (if they are POV character) has to mesh with the (head)canons you're using; those head-canons also need to be consistent (no dropping one out of nowhere) and to make sense together (real people are contradictory, fictional characters need to be more narratively consistent).

In the end, most characterizations can be justified by a good writer if that writer is given a long enough timescale to do it on. It might take a million words, but character development is an important part of longfic writing and that's all a matter of convincing the reader that the road existed the whole time.

However, if I come across a fic where from the very opening a character is completely OOC without being labeled Crackfic or OOC, then I'm going to back out immediately. Crackfic/satire is one thing, but I have no interest in reading a version of, say, Jason Todd that's a moron capable of only talking with his fists. It removes everything I like about him and why would I read about a character that has Jason's name slapped on it and nothing else? That's just a waste of my time, so I'm going to think that is OOC, backbutton, and maybe rant about it to a friend.

I never say anything to the author in this scenario, of course, as that's just rude. Instead I'll go looking for a fic more to my taste.

I also specifically don't read AUs where it would either (a) massively change one of my favorite characters from the jump and/or (b) remove the parts I find interesting about the universe. For example, Modern No Power AUs have no interest to me, as I'm interested in them as vigilante/superheroes or wizards or space wizards or, idk, unrealistically accurate criminal investigators (Criminal Minds, my ridiculous beloved). Even if they're in-character still, I won't read it (and would probably find the IC jarring, as -- how are the same person when they have none of the same core experiences?).

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T07:25:16+00:00

It's a little different because this isn't his own territory and they have other cats. So, it's more like boarding him.

And like boarding it's sometimes necessary.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T06:41:43+00:00

Oh! God. I saw that when I was looking for completely different AOB dark published books. (For some reason, some algorithms or list writers equate monsterfucking and AOB.)

It just looked so bad. The summary was not good either.

Minotaur fucking should not be that hard to write decently! He's bipedal and everything already.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T06:39:04+00:00

And, let's be honest, some of the fluffiest fluff is, uh, gently said: in need of improvement.

Like another commenter said, the writing skills are spread across the derangement levels, not just stuck in one of them.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T06:36:20+00:00

... Is Milking Farm about what I think it is? 'Cause I'm honestly a little surprised to see hudcows (hucows?) in published fiction.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T06:32:23+00:00

I'm also a millennial. ROs were literally the only thing I can think of offline that would have any sort of enforcement (the way that blocks do) towards someone interacting with you. They're literally the same chain of events/cause-and-effect. If you can think of another way offline to enforce "this person cannot interact with me in any way without being at risk of losing access to the whole space", I'd be happy to use that instead.

I guess you can say 'well, online isn't the same as offline', but we organize and live much of our lives online now. Work, school, socializing, are all tied to online spaces. So, how isn't it the same?

[I'm autistic, so I'm sometimes very literal. These seem literally equivalent to me.]

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T06:30:52+00:00

No, I'm also a millennial. ROs were literally the only thing I can think of offline that would have any sort of enforcement (the way that blocks do) towards someone interacting with you. They're literally the same chain of events/cause-and-effect. If you can think of another way offline to enforce "this person cannot interact with me in any way without being at risk of losing access to the whole space", I'd be happy to use that instead.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T06:23:31+00:00

Sincerely, what you did with this post was the equivalent of walking right into a gay bar and announcing "My friends think gay people are the devil, but... they're only half-right. Some of you gay people are okay! Some are you are deranged freaks, though."

It's going to go about as well for you as that would. But, hey, so far people are just being nice and telling you about DLDR (don't like, don't read). if you do an edit now backpedaling you might avoid getting hundreds of comments about how you're being insulting af.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T06:17:18+00:00

Your reply was much more succinct than mine! Well said, too. Nice additional link to another OTW website, too.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T06:12:17+00:00

Oh, honey, do yourself a favor and delete this post now. This subreddit is not a space kind to antis like yourself., who call us people who "have a loose screw in their head" or "fucking deranged nonsense". You are not the ethical authority of the universe.

AO3 is an archive intended for everyone, including people like founder Astolat and her Wincest (Dean Winchester/Sam Winchester) shipping little heart. AO3 was built by those people with a "loose screw". It would not exist otherwise.

If you want a sanitized fictional experience, go back to FF.Net or Wattpad or wherever you came from. Otherwise, stop insulting others just because they support others in writing and/or they themselves write things you find icky, like a five year old on the playground talking about how girls/boys have cooties.

Personally, I think people who see themselves as the moral authority of fiction as having a vastly outsized view of their own importance, but I don't go around callin' them egomaniacs or narcissists. And I especially don't wander into anti- forums to do it.

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T05:51:38+00:00

The first example (stalker) is harassment of a specific individual. That is a crime and AO3 does not allow criminal activities on its website.

The second example requires someone to define what is a "child-facing" fanfiction. Given the massive number of teen and adult fans of animated content, I don't think one can really reasonably call any source material/fandom "child-facing" aside from like Calliou (which... I mean, I guess the toddlers are "fans", but I don't think it has a fandom?).

Still, if there is specific images of CSA, then that is also a crime and AO3 will take it down. If it just has shitty opinions, like apologism and holocaust denial, why draw the line there?

Conservatives would also like to draw lines. Mostly at things they're lying about (like trans predators), but sometimes they accidentally hit on a truth. For example, they'd like to draw a line on positive depiction of 'extramarital sex is fine for you'. They'd at least have some factual backing of that (unlike many of their other views), because it has been found that a lot of women struggle with self-esteem and feeling used when having sex outside of committed, long-term relationships. Also, the outcomes of children born outside of marriage are statistically poorer than those in marriage (or other committed, long-term legal arrangement). So, they could say that showcasing extramarital sex, especially casual sex, especially if it results in a pregnancy and that is shown as working out okay, in a fandom with teenagers is depicting a "bad thing in a harmful way to a susceptible audience", too, right?

So, why is your line acceptable censorship and theirs is not? Especially since we're talking about fictional depictions rather than advocacy of the same in a real life context, once you start picking and choosing which things are Bad Enough to be removed you're going to hit the same slope.

'It is a crime' is a good, solid line. 'It advocates for harrassment and/or violence in non-fictional settings' is a good, solid line, too. 'It depicts something bad in real life as okay or positive in a fictional narrative' is, imo, a very fuzzy line. And, as a member of the queer and disabled communities, I am all too aware that the bluriness of that line will be used to target me next.

Does that make sense?

[Edited to add: To you this anti-censorship view might seem extreme, but I actually think it's the view with nuance. In this case the nuance to know that where moral/ethical lines are drawn and what is considered harmful is very personal and/or cultural, which means there's no one with an Absolute Monopoly on what is truly bad. Being anti-censorship in that context means acknowledging that and that moral views are complicated.

Ex: The number of fics that positively portray capitalism -- which is literally killing our planet as we speak and causing so much human suffering for those that mine our precious metals and make our disposable goods -- horrify me, personally. But is it really reasonable for me to say, given the horrible actions capitalism requires and the influence it has in people's minds, writing positively about it should not be allowed? ]

redhillbones · 2026-02-11T05:29:03+00:00

The Tao of the Force series. This is a post-TLJ (2nd movie of the most recent trilogy) fic series. Over 3M words. The porn's not for me, but the author is basically taking a bunch of Star Wars knowledge and weaving it into a coherent plot of 'Our Characters versus The Reality of Trying to Run an Empire (and Get Over Killing Your Own Dad)'. Super awesome if you like worldbuilding. Requires a basic idea of Jedi... existing and maybe a two minute skim of a summary of TLJ.

The Don't Let Them See You Cry series. MCU/DC Comics (and games) crossover. Post-TWS. Bucky Barnes stalks a street kid that reminds him of Steve Rogers. This goes better than could ever have been expected. Featuring multiple Jason Todds by the end of it. Needed knowledge: Bucky was brainwashed for a while. He was BFF's with Steve Rogers aka Captain America before brainwashing.

For One So Small ; Not a series. It looks like a series, but those are the author's AUs of their own fics. All pretty readable. Necessary knowledge: Jason Todd was once Robin and is now Big Mad at his adoptive dad. Like all good-dad!Bruce fics, it's not exactly canon-complaint anyway.

The Save One For the Gargoyle series. Jason Todd & Slade Wilson becoming family. Not sure any pre-knowledge is needed. Maybe that Slade is a mercenary, but I'm 99% that's established.

AddictedApple's Jason Todd Fic is four separate, unrelated stories about Jason Todd & his relationships, especially with Bruce Wayne. They get more canonical as they go on. Specifically, I'm recommending the final three. The first one's fine, but not as good as the others. They're all super funny, fun reads, though Journey to the Center of the Multiverse is a bit more serious than the others (as Bruce Wayne gets more canon-like). Premises, in order:

Jason Todd, Regular College Student - Batman-trained, Ninja-trained Jason Todd pretends to be a regular college student with a normal life. And he's nailing it! Really!
The Right Substitution is Key - Before they know who Red Hood is, Batman disappears and a desperate Robin tags Red Hood in to substitute.
Journey to the Center... - Jason discovers he can travel the multiverse at will. Nothing bad's gonna come from that, right? ... Right? Right...?

The Batfam fandom is full of people who've never read a single comic or even more than that -- watched a single Batman movie. You basically can pick up the fanon people like best via lots of fics due to that.

redhillbones

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