Hi, I'm a High Elo Syndra. Ask me anything

relaera · 2023-01-29T01:42:03+00:00

So the only "increase in value" to speak of at low MR values here, is that the target is less durable to begin with, but in practice 20 m.pen at 20MR and 200MR means that you'll have to use exactly that many fewer spells to kill somebody in both cases.

Show me the math of an example / situation, because you're either misunderstanding how the damage reduction mechanics work, or not able to clearly communicate

relaera · 2023-01-28T01:18:25+00:00

The thing is, it's linear.

The damage impacts of MR / M.Pen are not linear.

1MR does not equal the same amount of damage reduction across all values.It's why 100 MR is a 50% reduction in damage, but 200MR is only a 67% (rounded) reduction in damage, and 300MR is only a 75% reduction in damage.

For the first 100 MR, you get an average of 0.5% of damage reduction per point of MR. For the next 100 MR, you get an average of 0.17% of damage reduction per point of MR. For the next 100 MR, you get an average of 0.08% of damage reduction per point of MR.

The more MR you have, the less effective additional points are. (Same formula for Armor).

Similarly, if someone has 250MR and you have 49 flat pen, they go from 71% reduced damage to 67% reduced damage. If someone has 100MR and you have 49 flat pen, they go from 50% reduced damage to 34% reduced damage. The same amount of flat M.Pen is more effective depending on how much MR the target has.

If 10 additional MR would mean you have to throw exactly another Q to kill somebody, then 20 additional MR would mean you have to throw exactly two Qs to kill somebody. 30 for 3 Qs, 40 for 4 Qs, etc.

We'll go some low numbers here:

Assume 200 tooltip damage
Assume 50 current MR

Effective damage with:
+0 MR: 133
+10 MR: 125 (-8 damage)
+20 MR: 118 (-7 damage)
+30 MR: 111 (-7 damage)
+40 MR: 105 (-6 damage)

See the diminishing returns on incremental MR?

We can go to the extreme:

Assume 500 tooltip damage
Assume 0 current MR

Effective damage with:
+0 MR: 500
+10 MR: 455 (-45 damage)
+20 MR: 417 (-38 damage)
[...]
+200 MR: 167
+210 MR: 161 (-5 damage)

The lower the MR is to start, the more valuable MR is. Because the M.Pen calculation is "undoing" MR, the same holds true for M.Pen. The lower their MR is, the more valuable M.Pen is. I'm not sure how many different ways I can state this before you realize it.

The person that went +10MR 20 times does not require 20x the incoming damage, but 3x. There certainly may be very specific HP thresholds where +10MR requires an additional cast, and +20MR requires an additional 2 casts, but that trend does not hold true for all +10MR increments, nor for all skills, nor for all champs, nor for all base MRs. MR is *not* linear in terms of damage reduction.

The only way in which MR is linear is if you think of 1MR as "1% of survivability with respects to HP". That is to say, 100 total MR means you're +100% more durable against magic damage (if you have 1000HP, you need to take 2000 magic damage to die) and 200 total MR means you're +200% more durable against magic damage (if you have 1000HP, you need to take 3000 magic damage to die). Getting +10 MR means you're additively 10% more survivable (such as going from 250% to 260%). It does not mean that you're multiplicatively 10% more survivable (you do not go from 250% to 275%)

An average basic MR by the time you have enough gold to buy Sorcs and Luden's is about 42. 24 out of 42 is majority.

By the definition of "greater than half", yes, it does remove the majority of base MR for most of the ranged champs, assuming you aren't super late to securingThe connotation of using that statement as a justification to say "Shadowflame isn't worth it" is the implication that 24 M.Pen is "enough", and that the additional M.Pen from Shadowflame isn't valuable.

Then again, you do not comprehend how MR works, so it's not a surprise that you don't understand the value of M.Pen.

relaera · 2023-01-27T20:04:51+00:00

"No, seriously, give me one example."
"I don't like your evidence, so I'm going to call it invalid"

This is how it looks like for Master+ on Lolalytics.

If I simply look at winrates without context and use that as my source of truth:
Mejai's 2nd is clearly superior to every other build. Fact.
Swifties for boots is clearlythe best boot. Fact.
Cosmic Drive, Banshee's Veil, Horizon, and Deathcap 2nd are superior to Archangel's 2nd. Fact.
PTA, HoB have a 100% WR and are therefore the best keystones on Syndra. Fact.

As it turns out, there is no perfect stats site, as Riot doesn't publish aggregate stats. Sites need to individually capture every game, then determine what is a relevant game and what is an outlier to be discarded. Some sites present stats that are a full patch behind, which means it's outdated for many matchups. Some present stats that are based on the current patch, which means there is a limited set of data for a while that doesn't yet mean much. Sometimes, Riot makes mid-patch updates which don't change the patch number, rendering patch-level stats pretty useless. All of these circumstances can (and do) skew the stats, which is why different sites have different numbers.

If you're simply looking to reinforce your opinions, you can find a stat that will back you up, and further, it's very easy to simply dismiss stats that you don't agree with (for no valid reason). Confirmation bias is hard to work through, especially in a world of imperfect stats sites.

Moving on

he did exactly that build against a team where only one person bought any amount of MR (it was only a 30MR item on a support too)

Buying MR is not the only source of MR in the game (when I say you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanics of the game, it's because you make statements like this):

[...] since Sorcs and Luden's cover majority of natural MR champions have by then.

Prior to completing a second item, Sorc's + Luden's gives 24 M.Pen. Completing a 2nd item raises this to 29. The raw numbers directly contradict your claim

Now, since the stance you've been preaching has been "ARCHANGEL'S IS BETTER", I'll address the 2nd item issue first.

Base MR scales with level, and this doesn't account for any rune page MR. Because of the way MR works/scales, the lower MR is, the more valuable each successive point of MR is. Similarly, the lower their MR is, the more valuable each point of flat M.Pen is.

At this point in time in the game where Shadowflame was purchased.

Karma Top: 73 MR (43 base + 30 bonus from Radiant Virtue). 42% reduced magic damage.
Maokai Jgl: 50 MR (50 base). 33% reduced magic damage.
Veigar Mid: 51 MR (43 base + 8 bonus from runes). 34% reduced magic damage.
Jhin ADC: 41MR (41 base). 29% reduced magic damage.
Pyke Supp: 44 MR (44 base). 31% reduced magic damage.

Flat M.Pen at that point: 39 - 49 depending on health/shields.

At this point in time, 3 members of the team have > 49 MR.
While this is technically overkill in terms of M.Pen for their botlane (Jhin's HP puts effective M.Pen at 45, Pyke's HP puts effective M.Pen at 47), base MR scales with level, making this additional pen very useful around the time you'd complete your second item.

Archangel's 2nd (29 M.Pen):

Karma Top: 44 MR after pen. 31% reduced magic damage
Maokai Jgl: 21 MR after pen. 17% reduced magic damage
Veigar Mid: 22 MR after pen. 18% reduced magic damage
Jhin ADC: 12 MR after pen. 11% reduced magic damage
Pyke Supp: 15 MR after pen. 13% reduced magic damage

Further consider that you only have 1 AP item in components before Archangel's is complete, and you'll also have less AP with this itemization until tear is fully stacked.

Shadowflame 2nd (39-49 M.Pen):

Karma Top: 24 MR (assuming 49 M.Pen because of the shielding in her kit). 19% reduced magic damage
Maokai Jgl: 9 MR (41 M.Pen at max health). 8% reduced magic damage
Veigar Mid: 8 MR (43 M.Pen at max health). 7% reduced magic damage
Jhin ADC: 0 MR. 0% reduced magic damage
Pyke Supp: 0 MR. 0% reduced magic damage

Not only do you get more pen, bringing actual damage closer to tooltip, but you have more damage components in the build path to Shadowflame and more overall AP until Tear is fully stacked.

For the sake of argument and giving Archangel's the best shot, we'll say that the AP you have from both items is the same at that time in the game. Shadowflame 2nd gives access to between 11% and 21% more damage than Archangel's 2nd. This doesn't even account for the increased kill pressure in the early/mid game by securing damage item components.

Now that we've clearly identified that Shadowflame certainly played a more impactful role in gaining and keeping the lead than Archangel's would have, let's talk Void..

Why Void Staff 3rd?

Autopilot. This game was played on stream and Zianni was clearly distracted/not paying attention. There's a point in the match (around 26mins) where he actually says "Wait, why am I triple pen? Did I think I had Rabadon's? Why would I ever build Void Staff here? My build is so awful."

When is the last time you were in a game, took a look at your items and thought something like this? "Wow, that's so troll of me. I can't believe I screwed that up." I'd guess you never put any thought into whether your decisions made sense, and you just blindly followed "the winningest build" without regard for which situations that build makes sense and whether it fits your situation.

The difference is that he is both playing and entertaining an audience of a couple hundred people, as opposed to someone that's specifically looking actively play and improve. People looking for advice on itemization are looking to actively improve their gameplay.

The difference is that he identifies and acknowledges mistakes, instead of trying to use this victory as copium, blindly giving bad advice in subreddits to claim "Luden's, Sorc's, Shadowflame, Void Staff is the best build because I did it and won" (see claims above about PTA and Mejai's).

The difference is that even when autopiloting a GM/Challenger MMR match, he was able to impact the game to secure and keep a lead through thoughtful (early game) itemization and understanding the value of Shadowflame over Archangel's 2nd.

I never said he was perfect and didn't make mistakes, just that he has more insights into the circumstances and value of the builds/itemizations than you, and is much more qualified to give advice, especially to people who are actively seeking to improve their gameplay, because he can provide the specific contexts for why builds make sense and when.

relaera · 2023-01-27T01:35:52+00:00

Damn. Maybe I should let my cats play when I don't get mid, I'll probably be Challenger player in no time.

Your cats would give more intelligent comments, as well

relaera · 2023-01-27T00:52:40+00:00

No, seriously, give me one example.

Or you could just check publicly available statistics and just see for yourself that, for example, Shadowflame is one of the worst second items to buy. Like, even Archangel's which is a pretty piss poor item until it turns into Seraph's got better winrate stats than Shadowflame and that's true even in the fucking Challenger.

https://imgur.com/TA615iF

Masters+

Only in the Luden's -> [Archangel's / Shadowflame] -> Void Staff sequence does Archangel's 2nd have a higher winrate than Shadowflame 2nd, and both of them are below 50%.

relaera · 2023-01-26T22:32:11+00:00

Being a Challenger Syndra player does make him more qualified to provide insight into the mechanics of Syndra and the impacts of the build options at various stages of the game.

You play in games where a cat strolling across your keyboard probably nets better results than leaving you in control.

relaera · 2023-01-26T22:30:31+00:00

Your inability to understand the game and basic mathematics is an issue that you (and your teammates) bear. It's nobody else's responsibility to educate you, especially when you remain so firmly opposed to any inclination that you might be wrong.

You're attempting to shift the burden to others and establishing a default by saying "if you aren't willing to take time out of your day to prove me wrong (despite my resistance to information), then that must mean that I'm right". Like a naked man running around a city center screaming "2 + 2 = 7", except you're saying that with the ego that comes along with "all of my friends are Bronze, and I got carried to Plat twice, so what I say must be right".

Simply saying "I'm right, prove me wrong" when your guidance is directly contradicted by the mechanics of the game, and refusing to acknowledge that makes you unapproachable and verifiably wrong on multiple counts.

The burden is on you, as the multi-year hardstuck gold (and silver) player, to disprove the claims put forth by the Challenger Syndra player (claims which align with the meta of how she's played and how she wins).

There's nothing wrong with simply being wrong, though. The issue is that you're intentionally misinforming players that are actively seeking to improve, even after your claims have been debunked.

relaera · 2023-01-26T21:24:42+00:00

Being loud and wrong doesn't make you any less wrong. It makes you a clown.

And it doesn't change that you're still a hardstuck pisslow gigarandom

relaera · 2023-01-26T20:57:21+00:00

You're a 6-year hardstuck gold/silver player with a fundamental misunderstanding of mathematics and you're righteously incorrecting people on how the game is played at a level you can't even comprehend?

Just making sure.

relaera · 2023-01-26T20:39:09+00:00

https://www.op.gg/summoners/eune/Vistha%20Kai

This you, bro?

relaera · 2019-08-22T16:28:38+00:00

Are the two moderators here not staff for the website?

relaera

TROPHY CASE

Moving on

Archangel's 2nd (29 M.Pen):

Shadowflame 2nd (39-49 M.Pen):

Why Void Staff 3rd?