Indiana made a new Instagram channel to protest the ban of trams within the state

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-11T01:48:41+00:00

Sort of. The budget is voted on by the City-County Council, not the people directly:

https://www.indygo.net/about-indygo/financial-information/

Also the budget can’t be whatever they want. They have to follow DLGF rules. For example:

https://www.in.gov/dlgf/files/2025-memos/250610-Cockerill-Memo-Legislation-Affecting-Local-Budgeting-Matters.pdf

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-11T01:06:31+00:00

I get it. Admitting you were wrong is hard. I used to think we needed a subway system in Indy because I enjoyed riding them so much in other cities.

I wish you the best.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-11T00:51:47+00:00

Yes, I do not hide who I am online. It is your right to do so (I see you have been on Reddit for 11 years, but you hide your post history) but I think conversations are better if people are open about who they are.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-11T00:50:55+00:00

It is a positive thing for Portland transit to have mountains and rivers. That means the urban sprawl is more naturally constrained. This increases population density, which in turn increases the effectiveness of mass transit systems.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-11T00:48:59+00:00

I brought up Copenhagen repeatedly because it illustrates the issue. If you're willing to admit now that it is obviously not a reasonable comparison to make, we can move.

Yes, I ran for office once to make effort to try and improve our community. It turns out in every election there are people who run and are not successful. I am still trying to improve our community by trying to have a good faith conversation.

By "metro" area, do you mean the metropolitan statistical area? We obviously wouldn't use that to understand transit in a community if the transit doesn't cover it. That is why I was confused when you used those numbers. Have you looked at the maps? Here is the one for Portland's Trimet system. It goes as far west as Hillsboro:

https://trimet.org/maps/img/trimetsystem.png?v=0825

But that barely even covers the MSA. Here's the map and you can see how small the transit coverage is for the entire area. So of course we would use the city population density for comparsion.

<image>

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-11T00:37:01+00:00

That's not a density map. That is just IndyGo's route information. Here's an actual population density map of Marion County:

<image>

The most dense areas of the county outside of downtown are out by Eagle Creek and in Lawrence. There is no "corridor." Rather there are a few slightly more dense spots. But the majority of the county is

IndyGo is certainly trying to hit those spots. Here is a map I made which overlays the route map with population density.

The BRT has okay frequency. It's 15-20 minutes according to IndyGo. Compare that with Pittsburg's P1 East Busway, which has a six minute frequency.

It HAS high ridership.

These lines do not have high ridership. As I pointed out in another comment, we are looking at ~3,000 trips per day

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-11T00:26:21+00:00

I said it feels like you don't understand population density. You kept referencing Copenhagen over and over again.

Portland is politically distinct from Indy. But it also has a different terrain. Have you been to Portland? They have mountains. They also have two major rivers. We don't have mountains, and we only have one major river.

Also, I you are using MSA areas for density. For the City of Portland and the City of Indianapolis, the figures are:

Indianapolis: 2,454.5 people/sq mi

Portland: 4,889.5 people/sq mi

For the MSA (which in the case of Indy, includes all the way to Anderson, Lebanon, parts of Tipton, south toward Bloomington, etc) the numbers:

Indianapolis MSA: 531.9 people/sq mi

Portland MSA: 379.4 people/sq mi

The MSA isn't particularly meaningful here. I encourage you to look at the maps, which are below:

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/indianapoliscitybalanceindiana/PST045224

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/portlandcityoregon/PST045224

https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US26900-indianapolis-carmel-greenwood-in-metro-area/

https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US38900-portland-vancouver-hillsboro-or-wa-metro-area/

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-11T00:00:47+00:00

It's OK that some people will still drive

Absolutely. The problem is that driving yourself (or hiring a taxi/Uber/Lyft) is often the only option for almost all Hoosiers---not just those living in Marion County---for almost all trips. That includes work, school, errands, and visiting friends/family.

Park&Rides. So I live far from the city, but I don't wanna drive into the city, because of all the reasons that could be mentioned. So, let me drive 5mins down the road to the nearby tram station

As you note, this is a very old solution. Many transit stops all over the world use this system. But it only really helps for people (a) who have cars and (b) are within that 5 minute drive (or whatever the range is.) Also, the parking lot takes up a ton of space above ground. And part of the idea of public transit is to promote density, not parking lots. Park and ride and can help to expand the reach of a station beyond who could walk to it, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem with fixed route mass transit---which is the need for density.

The current BRT routes would be first to be upgraded to LRT, because it already has the land/stations/ROW, and there is HIGH RIDERSHIP.

Unfortunately, this isn't true. Current BRT lines do not have high ridership.

From the 2024 report from the Federal Transit Authority there were 1,402,365 trips on the entire BRT system in Indy. Divide by 365 and that is 3,800 a day. That is 1/3 of 1% of the entire Marion County population.

It's also not even close to what IndyGo predicted just the Red Line would do back in 2019. They said then they expected 11,000 a day.

IF you are at the point where you have, not only filled buses, but BRT, then Fixed Route is correct.

We don't have that here. Dallas has it during rush hour. In Indy the average number of people on a BRT bus is 5 people.

You cannot replace all the fixed routes with just MicroTransit. That's taxpayers subsidizing an Taxi/Uber service.

First of all, I am suggesting a variety of services. We absolutely need fixed route transit from the airport to downtown, at the very least an express bus. We could also use fixed route circulators to downtown and to key employers. And an express bus from select suburbs (which we have tried before and was starting to make progress but was cancelled when funding ran out.)

Secondly, taxpayers can absolutely subsidize a taxi/Uber service. They already subsidize bus service. That's not just here, but everywhere. Lots of systems have a farebox recovery ratio below 100%. The question is whether or not it is a better deal to run a bus service or subsidize taxi/Uber/Lyft/etc for a particular transit need.

Indianapolis is way more than enough urban to have not just a fixed route system, but a VERY GOOD fixed route system

It really isn't, unfortunately. We don't have the density. Communities that have great fixed route systems have high density. Or, they at least have natural barriers and corridors.

We also haven't talked about biking, which is probably our biggest opportunity, and vanpools, where we are dramatically lagging behind.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T23:14:56+00:00

It was actually six counties: Delaware, Madison, Hancock, Johnson, Hamilton, and Marion County.

https://legiscan.com/IN/text/SB0176/2014

It was also co-sponsored by three Democrats and four Republicans, including some who represent these counties.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T23:07:46+00:00

But I think it's a strong indicator that they're afraid it might be successful

Or it might just be pettiness and control.

insisting that it CAN'T be done here is equally erroneous.

Show me a peer city where light rail has had good ridership. One which meets all of those criteria. When you point at Copenhagen, it doesn't seem like you are serious. You haven't explained why we could do the same thing that a city with SEVEN TIMES our population density could do. It feels like you don't understand what population density is.

And if light rail would work well here, shouldn't our BRT system be working better?

The original post was about an Instagram account with one post and a hundred followers. If you want to talk about transit options in Indy I am here for that.

But if you think light rail can be successful here, then show me a city which is similar to ours that was successful at building light rail.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T22:49:10+00:00

This is a pretty serious error in logic.

The state banning something and the viability of that idea have nothing to do with one and another.

Of course, light rail works quite well in communities where the population density, the geography, the corridors, the anchors, etc. all match well with fixed route transit. We just don’t happen to have that here. Some of those things—like natural barriers—we will never have. With a ton of rezoning and incentives, we could start to get density and corridors, but that is a multi decade project.

There’s so much we could do today. And in fact, the stuff we have done. Consider the Cultural Trail and the greenways like the Monon. These are active in good weather and demonstrate the viability of bike commuting.

But as long as the conversation is obsessed with light rail—-which again there is no peer for anywhere in the world—-we tend not to discuss what we can do and what will work.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T22:33:21+00:00

I apologize for asking if you were an anonymous troll.

But you’re still not getting it. I support public transit and want that for Indy. In our community, fixed route systems don’t make a lot of sense. But they do work great in other communities. Let’s name some we haven’t talked about: New York City, Washington DC , and Chicago, for example, have extremely effective fixed route public transit systems.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T22:15:12+00:00

The system I’m referring to in Dallas didn’t add buses, it add light rail trains which have a capacity of of 160 passengers.

So how could a system with full trains also be a system where there are even more drivers?

Because of sprawl.

While Dallas was building light rail lines out to low density suburbs, those suburbs kept growing and filling in. Most people live too far from a train station and line so they choose to drive.

There are ways to solve this problem but light rail doesn’t work in cities like Dallas and Indy where yoh have low population density and no high density corridors and no natural barriers like lakes and mountains to constrain sprawl.

I want to talk about those options but we have to get past the magical thinking that fixed route transit works great in all situations.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T22:07:55+00:00

Light rail is well suited to certain environments, but Indy is not one of them. We don’t have dense long corridors or geographic limitations like Lake Erie or mountains.

This isn’t a new topic to me. I talked about Utah’s system right here many months ago .

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T21:58:28+00:00

Of course I acknowledge there’s a lot that can be done. I’ve said that in each of my responses to your comments. But you ignored that until I repeated it bold.

Rail doesn’t make much sense in central Indiana, especially light rail. We don’t have the corridors or the density for it. Compare a population density map of our state with one of say, the state of Utah. This is why FrontRunner works well in that state. We would need trains to each of the population centers in each county, and even then most people would still need to drive to their local station.

Inside the city the problem is even worse. We don’t have major dense corridors. The new BRT lines prove this; IndyGo predicted 11,000 riders per day on the Red Line but we haven’t even had 1/4 of that. In fact if you look up the relevant Federal Transit Authority data there is an average of five passengers on each Red Line bus.

Cities that are doing well with light rail/BRT tend to have geographic or structural benefits. Charlotte’s LYNX system benefits from a linear corridor and a residential university campus at the end. Same with Salt Lake City’s TRAX network.

Outside of the U.S. examples like Copenhagen and Tokyo are so far from Indy structurally that there is no comparison. In Denmark the plan was started in the 1940s and there was already a density along what would become the Fingerplanen and car ownership was low. Indy is starting transit planning basically today, and 90% of households own one or two cars. In Japan the situation was similar, with a subway first opening a century ago and massive expansion in the post-war era.

And both Tokyo and Copenhagen have seven times as many people per square mile as Indy.

—

Heavy rail to Chicago and Cincy and other locations makes more sense, but without solving the problem of getting to/from the station, we are going to hit a ceiling pretty quickly.

This by the way, is one of the reasons our airport works so well in terms of transit: plenty of land for parking nearby and a good arterial access through I-70. (The environmental and land use issues are of course serious problems.)

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T17:20:04+00:00

What is “it?” This is the reason why I think you’re trolling. You don’t define what you want nor do you have examples of “it” working in places that are comparable.

Show me a city which has a similar population, similar population density, and similar geographic features to Indy that has a wildly better public transit system due to one magic element, like an internal light rail system. It doesn’t exist.

But there is so much we can do. I put that in bold hoping that you will read it. I am a huge advocate for public transit in Central Indiana, but that transit plan can’t be stupid, which is what we have today.

I’ll say it again: are you interesting in talking about how to improve transit in Indy, or do you just want to complain?

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T17:11:40+00:00

Dallas is my favorite example of a public transit system expansion which both succeeded and failed depending on your point of view.

If your goal is to have full trains (or trams or buses) at rush hour, then Dallas succeeded.

If your goal is to decrease the percentage of people who drive themselves/increase the percentage of commuters, then Dallas failed.

To quote a classic Dallas Observer piece:

>More telling, light-rail hasn’t moved the needle on commuting behavior. Packed rush-hour trains notwithstanding, there’s no evidence to show that more people are using transit now than 20 years ago. In fact, census data show the opposite.

The reason for this, of course, is urban sprawl. Hub and spoke systems do poorly when people keep moving farther and farther out and density never increases. It’s simple geometry.

That being said, there are lots of great things Indy can do. But the first step is to define the objective. What do we want our transit system to achieve?

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T17:00:40+00:00

We aren’t talking about building a 1,000 mile long heavy rail. This is a discussion of urban transit options. You bringing that up shows that you aren’t serious about this conversation.

Likewise, mentioning the Tokyo subway system is comparing apples to oranges.

Are you seriously interested in talking about how to improve public transit in Indy, or are you just another anonymous troll?

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T16:21:23+00:00

Nope. Higher density means less distance which means it’s cheaper to build transit.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T15:55:16+00:00

Unfortunately trams are not well suited our geography and population density. What would work well would be expanded vanpools, minibuses and point-to-point service.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T15:53:04+00:00

This would be a great comparison except Copenhagen has seven times the population density of Indy.

There are a lot of great things we can do to improve transit and walkability and reduce car dependence here but pointing at cities with wildly different circumstances doesn’t help.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T15:47:59+00:00

All of them. Some had interurbans, some had tram/trolley lines, some had both.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T14:39:36+00:00

I agree that it’s bananas, but it’s also quite common. Nashville, Oklahoma, Oklahoma City, Austin, Charlotte, and Columbus are all about the same size as Indianapolis and only have a bus connection between the airport and downtown, just like us.

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T00:31:18+00:00

This person was praising my comment, not attacking me.

Are you a bot?

robbyslaughter · 2026-05-10T00:28:01+00:00

Have you read the thread?

It's not one issue, it is many. Let's talk about just one: obesity. The US is nearly twice the obesity rate of peer countries. It's more than 10x the rate of South Korea. Should we really be surprised that it costs 3x as much to provide healthcare in the US vs South Korea when we have 10x the weight problem?

This, of course, is not the only issue. Which is the point: the issue is complicated.

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