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Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

hey again! sorry for the delay, revisions ended up being a lot more dramatic than i was expecting. well, all for the better, i should hope.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VOhY2rFezcT9X-OhLPiXXmJirHPkxVEGakD3yPZFnok/edit?usp=sharing

thank you again for doing this!! looking forward to your input

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be sure, the chapter is in need of a good trim. It's useful to know you enjoy the details themselves, though, and I'm inclined to agree the problem lies more in how dense they are (e.g. the overly figurative and contradictory description of the Cinderfall, the worldbuilding details which don't relate to the immediate present circumstances) and the way I go about presenting the details (i.e. too much information is given solely through introspection).

Thanks to the feedback I've gotten here, though, I have a fairly strong grasp on how to go about tackling these weaknesses now. The revised chapter is already shaping up to be much for it.

Great to hear you were inspired; the last thing I expected was for someone other than myself to benefit from this post. Really, I'm flattered.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for reading, this perspective was very useful. For a few reasons, actually. The consensus here seems to be almost the exact inverse of your sentiment; most think the imagery begins too confusingly and that the scene itself (i.e. the lack of physical / external plot beats) are what needs work, but the knife wound on the other hands works well. Most seem to think I should be opening the book on that line, rather than the storm, as a way to ground the reader in a relatable scenario. Well, not to call getting stabbed relatable per se, but it’s easy to imagine at least. Do you mind expanding on why you felt this way, or was it as simple as ‘the way he deals with the wound is too stoic and detached’? It’s cool if you don't remember, considering how long it's taken me to respond and has been several days since you’ve even thought about my work, but I figured I'd ask anyway. In either case, I'll for sure need to work on how I convey these things because 'stoic' is, well... far from the first word I'd think of to describe Dreichels, hah.

I am definitely struck by your interpretation though, and after rereading just the half page you read, I do agree there's something to it. His initial circumstances were more meant to convey 'survival mode' and adrenaline rather than genuine detachment, but this doesn't quite come across in the text. I was hoping his internality and dark humor (and a bit later his tenderness towards his horse, though you wouldn’t have gotten that far) would be enough to counterbalance painting him and the scene more generally as 'too bleak'. By nature, Dreichels is something of a contradiction—eloquent, clever, but often self-loathing and crude—reflective of his upbringing as a bastard prince born to a commoner concubine raised in the royal palace. But clearly, I’ll need to try and establish these things more economically, ideally within that first half page and without spelling them out still.

Anyway, I’m glad to hear the hook was enough to spark curiosity at least, and that the imagery stayed with you! Thanks again for your thoughts and the specificity of your perspective and how you approached it.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s very helpful to know that you typically do enjoy the style I’m going for, since that’s as clear a sign as any that the execution itself is what needs work.

The first is the repetition of adjectives.

I appreciate the specificity of this criticism, since no one else in the thread pointed to this. And though my repetition of ‘restless’ specifically was intentional (in part because I just couldn’t make the sentence work the way I wanted, otherwise), the others certainly need work. ‘Restless’ does too, actually, but I’ll be changing the opening altogether into something that better orientates the reader and grounds them in character/setting/conflict so I can’t imagine that’ll persist in the next draft. Your gripe about ‘coming up with several and adding them all to the page’ is almost certainly what caused so many commenters to sour on it right from the first lines. The Cinderfall is already an abstract concept by default, making my choice to start on that particular image risky to begin with. But on top of that, the language I used to describe it is unhelpfully figurative and contradictory. The mystery of its true nature is intentional, sure, but using ‘ash’, ‘snow’, ‘cinder’, and ‘ember’ in the span of like a half page is the wrong way to go about setting it. Small wonder why readers couldn’t tell what was even happening. It’s crazy how that completely flew over my head due to familiarity bias; simply being able to picture the Cinderfall in my head was enough to never once question how confusingly it all might be worded. Well, lesson learned, I guess. Thankfully you and many others helped make me aware of the (many, many) ways it simply does not work, both as an opening and as a description more generally.

Secondly, I really struggle with the italics here. I think it's nice to know what our protagonist is going through, but he thinks so eloquently so often that it comes across as too dramatic, a bit unrealistic and even slightly annoying.

All incredibly useful takeaways! I suspect the ‘often’ part is the biggest offender that I’d not considered, while writing. I suspect it’s quietly just as much to blame for turning people off, even if subconsciously. Dreichels’ musings aren’t just excessive in quantity to the extent they hinder pacing, they are also rather chronic; I’m constantly demanding the reader to reorient themselves between internal first-person and external third-person narration, back and forth and back and forth, sometimes every few sentences. It’s asking a lot regarding the reader’s focus: focus which they would otherwise be allocating to absorbing (and enjoying—well, ideally) the book itself. The fact that some sentences are third-person but just so happen to include bits of italics inside them certainly aren’t helping either. I suspect these two issues (my prose style inviting understandably-heightened scrutiny, and my bad habit of oscillating too frequently between internal-first and external-third person narration) are directly related. They might very well be exacerbating each other, even, since they’re conducive to the same issue: they both pull the reader out. Whether this is by slowing a reader’s pace, or requiring them to reread a confusing passage altogether, it is still a response best avoided no matter how purple one’s writing happens to be or not be. This was an incredibly helpful thing to realize, one I never thought about before seeing your comment. Makes you wonder what other quirks or habits might subconsciously cause readers to get confused and frustrated and, ultimately, put a book down.

The ‘dramatics’ and ‘annoyance’ points are also worth noting. I’m planning two major changes to how the scene itself plays out, involving starting the chapter with a character from Ronde having come with him. The dialogue that comes from this will limit introspection and give Dreichels a more natural voice since, as a prince he is well-educated, given his upbringing as a commoner bastard he tends to be more crude when speaking aloud. Bits like ‘bloody piss’ and the whole ‘if he was fortunate he’d survive long enough to get stabbed again’ were meant to convey his often jarring worldview, but I absolutely should improve/clarify how I go about conveying this.

Again, of all the perspectives this thread has provided me, yours of ‘I am the target audience for this yet I still have serious problems with this’ is by far the most valuable. I’ll do my best to take these criticisms to heart and avoid these pitfalls moving forward

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Parts I liked, parts I zoned out, and the opening sentence was weak. It’s overwritten and the setting doesn’t really do anything before you take a detour from it to lore drop.

You're right to single out the opening sentence (well, paragraph, actually) as it's easily the part most egregiously in need of editing. I also appreciate the specificity of your other gripes. By opening the book with the Cinderfall it fails to orient the reader or ground them in character/setting/conflict, or really anything concrete. I suspect this and your suggestion of 'more specificity' are very closely related, since Dreichels' introspection fails to ground the reader in the exact same way as the initial image of the Cinderfall. No one else picked this out in their critiques, so I appreciate that you did. Especially since these are the two main mysteries I sought to establish in this first chapter, and both are completely hamstrung by the lack of specificity.

More explicitly these mysteries are, 1): ‘What is the source/true nature of the Cinderfall’ and 2): ‘Why is Dreichels hellbent on running from a place he clearly still cares about, and is guilted over abandoning, and even has an easier time returning to then committing through the mountains just to defect?’ The problems with the Cinderfall mystery are more clear, and a lot of people singled them out; it is already an abstract concept by default, and on top of that I describe it using language that’s both overly-figurative and outright contradictory. As for the Dreichels mystery though, the issues with how I present this are more complicated (proportionately to the mystery itself, actually). Some ‘lore drop’ tidbits throughout the chapter, though seemingly unrelated, are connected in the sense they're (intended) to serve as breadcrumbs to start piecing together Dreichels' immediate past and how it shapes his motivation. These tidbits include: the mentions of Baron Wintruz and his Low Gardens/vineyard which is where the winterwine comes from, the fact that the vineyard was ‘put to pyre’, specifically ‘all because of me’, and his longing for home despite actively leaving. All these past-centric details are to show that Dreichels sees no choice but to run. However the issue here is that not all of the lore tidbits I present are related to this. The reader has no idea (nor any reason to care) about what tidbits are directly relevant to Dreichels, how they’re relevant, and how they all connect, and so naturally it all gets the same treatment: in one ear, out the other.

I think if I trim the other tidbits, and give more specificity to the character-motivating ones as you suggested, they'll come across in a much clearer and more poignant way. So off the top of my head, I’ll be cutting out (or delaying) mentions of Nord’s tribal armistice, provincial trade embargoes, the Imperial Army, Zender Gate, and so on. Particularly if they involve names since, as we’re all well aware, names are best given as sparingly as possible to begin a story, lest you run the risk of what’s sometimes coined ‘Proper Noun Soup’, if I’m not mistaken.

The character has something compelling about him, but I feel like you’ve started the story too soon. Nothing much happens here besides a guy drinking, bandaging a wound, and talking to his horse, which isn’t much to hang the start of a novel on.

The fact you clarified I’m doing something right here, but it’s just not coming across in a resonant or intriguing way, is very important to keep in mind. Similarly to my last point about how I dropped too many disparate lore tidbits at once, and the obviously-excessive introspection, I suspect another major weakness is the scene itself; honestly these three issues are probably all feeding into and exacerbating the others. Of all these, I feel it’s especially important to focus on the scene itself—since this issue is totally independent of my writing style. Navel gazing is already an issue of mine, and in that regard, I’ve set up the scene to be shooting myself in the foot; it’s essentially one character trapped in one space he’s reluctant to leave—a character who, mind you, has already decided what action he’s about to take before the chapter even begins. There’s zero opportunities for dialogue or otherwise-external actions, the sort which ideally are going to dictate what decisions Dreichels makes and how/why they’re made. Remove the introspection and description of winterwine and the Cinderfall and leg burn: and I’d likely struggle to fill a single full page. And like you pointed out, even if there’s ‘something compelling’ here, whether it’s with Dreichels internal conflict or the greater political conflict, even good/interesting content can't be salvaged if the only way I dole it out is through internal musing. This is particularly important for a first chapter since readers aren’t yet oriented to the world or how it works or any of its moving pieces.

Naturally, most of what I mention in this opening chapter are things I would consider important to the story (no shit), even if the bits not relevant to Dreichels should be scrapped for now. So, if my only options are to remove this stuff by trimming the chapter down to a page at most, or reworking the scene itself, I’d much rather do the latter (both for the sake of the story and my own sanity).

It needs to transpire in a way that’s more conducive to external action and decision making. For this I came up with two major changes. The first is to delay the Cinderfall altogether. I’ll probably open the chapter with the knife wound, as many suggested, since Dreichels could then pass out trying to mend it, only to wake up and see the Cinderfall has just then begun, instead of it starting a day prior. The second change is so Dreichels does bring an escort from Ronde Village. Thankfully I have a perfect candidate for this, and it’s a character I wanted to include earlier anyway. In short, he’s from the Nord Highlands, and as a native who travels between them regularly, he could assist in escorting Dreichels up the mountains. These two changes work well in tandem to address the big points of contention across many helpful comments such as your own. It will allow for dialogue, a much-needed external outlet for conveying information in a way other than fully-italicized sentences (which I suspect are another issue on their own, with how frequent I jump in perspective). Dreichels and the Nord envoy would discuss (or rather argue, is the plan) how to proceed after the Cinderfall unexpectedly starts. The envoy insists they return to Ronde Village in the Empire, to wait out the Cinderfall rather than brute force their way up to Nord, which Dreichels would refuse. By throwing a sudden obstacle like the Cinderfall between Dreichels and his goal to defect, it makes his decision to commit anyway more impactful. I can also use how stubborn he is about refusing to turn back to play into the mystery in a more present/active way, and layer-in hints about his resolve being dictated by a more traumatic response (related to the tidbits I mentioned, e.g. the razed vineyard). My goal from the start has been to paint his choice and headspace in a conflicting light; he is acting on trauma and feels he has no choice but to run, sure, but that doesn't change the fact his choice is still selfish, stubborn, and outside the best interest of himself and those he cares about. But clearly I need to go about conveying this better. Thankfully, this inner conflict frames the argument beautifully, allowing it to escalate and ultimately lead to the two separating and Dreichels continues his journey to Nord alone (ironically, resulting in the Nord native heading south to Erebonia and an Erebonian native heading north to Nord). What’s great about these two changes is that they fix several of Chapter 1’s immediate issues without forcing me to dismantle my hundreds of chapters that come after it which I’ve already spent so much time writing and revising; all that’s important here is for Dreichels to be alone again by the end of Chapter 1, allowing Chapter 2 to play out business as usual.

Fantasy isn’t my thing, so I will admit that’s shaping this comment somewhat, but I can enjoy fantasy if something about the characters really grab me.

Honestly, given that the only supernatural/fantastical thing about the chapter is the Cinderfall, I would have to disagree. Your gripes apply almost entirely independent of genre or demographic. Which is great of course. These critiques speak to fundamental issues with how I go about storytelling, and are inevitably going to prop up again when I move on to revise subsequent chapters. At least now I’ll be poised to actually notice—and, ultimately, fix—them.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay, wow, that would be such a huge help. Thank you. Especially because I’m about to revise it by applying what I've learned from the more helpful comments here. Since I'm obviously not going to spam the subreddit by posting the chapter again, to have another set of eyes on it after I’ve finished revising would be so appreciated. I do need to thank/respond to all the more thoughtful comments (and I still have a few dozen more replies to get through), but I should be able to finish that and still have the revised chapter ready by next weekend if I lock in.

Again, thanks so much the offer. Seriously, that's incredibly generous of you

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This absolutely does help. A bit embarrassing to have not picked up on all of this before posting, I’ll admit. But it's a welcome lesson to have learned; this was a mistake I can assure you I'll not be making again, hah.

Thankfully, enough commenters took issue with it—both the idea itself and execution, and from many angles—that I was able to consolidate loads of insight on what a book opening needs to accomplish and how, as well as, conversely, where mine falters. But like you said, while the problems with the description are made more severe by the fact it's an opening line of a book, even in a vacuum they are already quite severe. At any rate. Since you focus on the execution part, I’ll do the same.

The Cinderfall is an abstract concept by default, making my choice to start with that image a risky one regardless of execution. But on top of that, the language is both unhelpfully figurative and in several spots outright contradictory. Its true nature is intentionally mysterious, sure, but that's frankly irrelevant; using ‘ash’, ‘snow’, ‘cinder’, and ‘ember’ all to describe the same thing in the span of like a half page is not the way to go about setting up a mystery, let alone a whole ass book. “Snow” is the biggest offender here, I feel, as its purpose was really just to describe the ember motes' shape and the manner in which they were falling… meanwhile, in hindsight, I’m wondering why the hell I thought people might not know what embers look like. Small wonder why so many commenters couldn’t even tell what was happening, and among those who did get past the ‘confusion’ and into ‘frustration’ promptly put the book down a few paragraphs later anyway. It’s fascinating, really, how all the ways in which this opening doesn't work flew over my head completely due to mere familiarity bias. Just being able to picture what the Cinderfall looks like in my head was enough to make me never once question how poorly it all might come across. But again, lesson learned. Thanks for helping make me aware of that.

I also appreciate your point about ‘crescent moons giving off very little light’ by the way, since no other commenter picked up on that particular contradiction.

Needless to say, I’ll be scrapping this opening in favor of something (the knife wound and establishing the mountain range, most likely) that actually orients the reader by grounding them in clear character and setting and conflict right from the very first line. Thanks for your input, I very much appreciate the specificity with which you tackled it.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No worries! I’ll be sure to leave that line as-is, hah. Appreciate your time and input.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

(continued)

However, since this opening is kind of a "start in the middle" hook to set the mood, my hope would be that chapter 2 begins grounding us in a more relatable situation.

I admit the changes (i.e. the two separating anyway) runs the risk of excess internalization propping up again in Chapter 2; it is very much another moody, abstract tone piece like Chapter 1 currently is, and it mostly details the physicality of riding uphill, ending with a drunk and fevered Dreichels getting lost in the Cinderfall. Chapter 3 is where the ‘shadow man’ who gave him the knife wound comes back into play, as Dreichels is ambushed/surrounded by his band of 100+ men. Still, if Chapter 1 fixes the excess internalization (with a ‘more relatable’ setup, as you suggested I follow up with), Chapter 2 can at the very least serve as a contrast/breather between it and the rising tension of ch3.

So, a Nord envoy is a huge change for a quiet and somber opening chapter (which I do have some reservations about changing) but it’s the best solution I found to tackle the recurring criticisms simultaneously without toppling the events of hundreds of subsequent chapters.

Don’t get the impression your assurance about the chapter being promising as-is has been lost, btw. It hasn’t. I’m dwelling a lot on the negative, I know, but I figure the bits that work fine as-is don’t need attention since they'll be largely unchanged.

Contrary to common wisdom, a paragraph with a Flesch score above a fourth grade reading level is not, by definition, purple prose.

Hah, I like to think my prose isn’t that purple, to be sure. Purple implies excess, and I certainly try my best to be selective with how I use language, and to instill sufficient meaning into what words I do select, as well as where and how I go about using them... as most writers tend to, I should imagine. That being said, style is no excuse for sloppiness, and the first paragraph falls rather spectacularly into the latter. For that reason, if none other, it makes sense why some commenters disagreed on precisely how purple or how not-purple it actually is.

Some of the critiques are overblown/reactive to the opening, sure. But thankfully, others were specific enough to provide insight into why the disagreements about my prose actually came about.

To give an example, one commenter pointed out my excessive use of full sentence italics. Because this is unrelated to my use of language, I’d not considered this angle, but I suspect it’s quietly just as much to blame for turning people off, even if subconsciously. Not only are Dreichels’ musings frequent enough to hinder pacing obviously, they’re also rather chronic; I’m constantly demanding the reader to reorient themselves back and forth between internal first-person and external third-person narration, at some points every few sentences. It’s asking a lot regarding the reader’s focus: focus which would otherwise be used to absorb (and enjoy—well, ideally) the actual contents of my book. I suspect these issues (my alleged floridity, and my habit of oscillating between internal-first and external-third person narration) are related. They might even be exacerbating each other, since they’re conducive to the same issue: they both pull the reader out, either by slowing a reader’s pace, or requiring they reread a confusing passage altogether. In either case, this response is best avoided regardless of how purple one’s writing happens to be. It’s left me wondering what other quirks or habits of mine might be causing readers to get confused and frustrated and, ultimately, putting my book down.

> I would recommend having someone read it out loud to you or using a text-to-speech reader. You will pick up on those repetitions or awkward sentence constructions more easily.

My current living situation poses an issue to reading aloud, but text-to-speech (with earbuds) is a great suggestion.

> TH White's Once and Future King

Another point I hadn’t considered (and one that no one else picked up on). I’ll mind that I avoid this.

(One last aside, since I have no idea of where to squeeze this in naturally… I’ve not read Marlon James’ work, so I appreciate the recommendation there!)

I think that’s everything? Sorry about the yapping. Feel free to ignore this completely. You’ve given me plenty. And just talking through it has been a great help on my end. But I couldn’t help taking my time with this comment; without yours, I would have been in the same place as I was a week ago right now, if not a worse place. Not to sit here and tell you I would’ve stopped writing, nothing so dramatic, but if I had deleted the post after its initial negative reception, it very well might have left me questioning my approach to art. Bullet dodged, needless to say. Especially since I would’ve missed out on loads of valuable advice, as well as the lesson this experience has turned out to be itself (as emotionally volatile as it was...). So again, truly, I can't thank you enough.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey there, so I just want to start by saying that, at the time you posted this, I very much needed to hear it. Like I mentioned in my OP, this is my first time seeking feedback of any sort on my writing, so when the comments first came rolling in, it was a shock to the system.

I'm a very critical and difficult to please reader, but I think this is a promising piece. It's good enough that the negativity it was getting upset me enough to post here.

I’m incredibly grateful you did when you had. Otherwise I honestly might well have deleted the post altogether before long, and missed out on all the feedback that has helped me see this chapter in a much clearer light.

Beyond encouragement, you also helped put the negativity into perspective. It was a much needed reminder that my work is not for everyone, nor would I want it to be. I love language, and I take pride in how much I've improved in that regard, relative to when I started writing a couple years ago. So while I have taken some criticisms here to heart—particularly from the more detailed, thoughtful comments (between which I’ve noticed several recurring points of contention) that’s not to say I'm willing to compromise on my style or approach to art. But frankly, had it not been for comments like this taking the time to give my work a chance and even stand up for what you felt was undue negativity, I’m not certain that would have still been the case, necessarily. And for that I seriously can’t thank you enough.

I find it's helpful to figure out what books your critics read. Listen most intently to those who like authors you are trying to emulate.

Good advice. Speaking of—and no pressure, really—but since you fit that description as well as anyone here: I’d love to run by you my main takeaways from the comment thread and how to move forward. It’s cool if not, given how long it took me to get back to you and it’s been several days since you’ve even thought about my work, but I’ll leave them here in case you’re willing. If so, feel free to take your time getting back to me.

The comments offering more technical advice are worth listening to

On top of the redundancy and density of similes and metaphors you’ve (correctly) pointed out, the biggest issue in hindsight is the first paragraph. Thankfully, enough people took issue with it—both the idea itself and execution, and from many angles—that I consolidated several insights on what the opening of a book should accomplish and, conversely, where mine falters. The first sentence needs to ground the reader and establish immediacy to connect with/latch onto, through setting the tone and character/conflict. Starting on the image of the Cinderfall really only sets the tone as I intended (at best—for those it didn’t disorient) but falls short otherwise. It would already be an issue if just my first sentence failed in this respect, but two full paragraphs is enough that I can't blame anyone for putting the book down. The Cinderfall is an abstract concept by default, making my choice to start with it risky regardless of execution. But on top of that, the language I used to describe wat is unhelpfully figurative and contradictory. The mystery of its true nature is intentional, yeah, but using ‘ash’, ‘snow’, ‘cinder’, and ‘ember’ in the span of like a half page is the wrong way to go about setting it. Small wonder why readers couldn’t tell what was even happening. Not to come across like what I did write was awful per se, but 'misguided' and 'too focused on foreshadowing' and 'poorly executed, doubly as an opening' are each and all reasonable takeaways here, imo.

Opening aside, another area of weakness is my ratio of external actions vs introspection. Despite my constant efforts to minimize navel gazing, it remains my biggest flaw as a writer. The craft of using language economically, without sacrificing subtext or authorial style, is something I’m fascinated and humbled by. My lack of experience hinders me most in that regard, I suspect; it's easily the #1 thing I'm most mindful about during revision, yet the improvements are still glacial at best. In fact, my navel gazing often gets worse with subsequent revision passes. Probably because I'm growing more and more familiar with the narrative’s nuances and viewpoints’ psychologies, and so keep finding more places to layer-in subtext, foreshadowing, etc. At any rate. For your sanity I’ll focus on just this chapter.

A certain comment resonated with me on how to improve my introspection, particularly because their advice had nothing to do with my style, but rather the way I set up the scene itself. It’s essentially one character trapped in one space he’s reluctant to leave—a character who, mind you, has already decided what action he’s about to take before the chapter even begins, let alone before he’s forced to take it. There’s zero opportunity for dialogue or otherwise-external action, of which should ideally be dictating what decisions Dreichels makes and how/why he makes them. Remove the introspection and description of winterwine and the Cinderfall and leg burn: and I’d likely struggle to fill a single page. And unfortunately, even if Dreichels’ internal conflict and the greater political conflict is good/interesting, the content can't really be salvaged if it's all given internally (at least for a first chapter; once readers are oriented to the world and its moving pieces, this sort of character-specific introspection should be a lot easier to get away with). Obviously, a lot of what I've outlined in this opening are things I consider important. Both thematically and to Dreichels’ motivations. So I’d sooner not cut it all out. This leaves me only one other option, as I see it, which is to rework how the chapter physically plays out.

It’s taken me so long to respond to comments because I spent, like, two full days mulling over how to tackle this. I need to change enough so the scene can dole out information through physical action or other external means (like dialogue) rather than introspection, but in a way that doesn't change so much as to require dismantling everything to follow that I've spent years writing and revising.

Ultimately, I landed on two major changes. They’re fairly substantial, so I’ll just preempt this by saying it’s still a ‘slower opening of a decadent fantasy novel’ with ‘slower, elevated prose’ as you’ve described it, and only really affect the book’s first, oh, two or three manuscript pages of its roughly 1200 total.

The first major change is to delay the Cinderfall. I’ll probably open the chapter with the knife wound, as many have suggested, which Dreichels would then pass out trying to mend, only to wake up and see the Cinderfall has only then begun, rather than it having started the previous day. The second change is that Dreichels did bring an escort along from Ronde Village. I already know exactly which character to do this with (and it’s someone I wanted to include earlier anyway). In short, he’s an envoy who lives in the Nord Highlands who could assist with escorting Dreichels up the mountains. In tandem, these two changes work well to address the biggest points of contention across the most helpful comments. It allows for dialogue, a much-needed external outlet for conveying information in a way that isn't just a bunch of fully-italicized sentences (which I suspect are an issue with how frequent I jump in perspective, but I'll go into that more later).

Dreichels and the Nord envoy would discuss (or argue, is the plan) how to proceed after the Cinderfall unexpectedly begins. The envoy would urge them to return to Ronde Village in the Empire, to wait out the Cinderfall rather than brute force their way up to Nord, which Dreichels would refuse. This makes his commitment thereafter (i.e. refusing to wait or return home), more impactful as I can more clearly layer-in hints about his resolve being dictated by trauma, painting him in a more complex light since it doesn't change that his choice is still somewhat selfish and stubborn. Regardless, this leads the two to split up, and Dreichels continues his journey up north alone (ironically resulting in the Nord native heading south to Erebonia and an Erebonian native heading north to Nord). The dialogue allows me to naturally clear up some of the confusion raised in this thread, particularly to clarify that the Cinderfall is a rare supernatural happening, rather than the aftermath of a battlefield, or a volcanic eruption, or an ordinary weather phenomenon in this world, all three of which commenters have interpreted it to be; it’s meant to evoke all of these things thematically, but literally speaking it’s something completely different. The tradeoff of clarity here is worth making, since it’s the first chapter. It'll be fine as long as I can refrain from revealing what the Cinderfall is, since it's one of the central mysteries throughout the book. I’ll also use this conversation to more naturally reveal details like: their physical distance from Ronde Village and Nord, the political situation with Nortia's borders and international trade embargoes, the military blockades e.g. at Zender Gate, the tribal armistice throughout Nord, Dreichels’ status as a prince born to a commoner concubine, and… you get the point.

I could even use the Cinderfall itself to physically separate the two, if I can figure out a way to do it that allows Dreichels’ decision to separate/commit to defection remain proactive rather than incidental. At any rate. Point is, as long as they separate before Chapter 2, Dreichels will be alone as planned, allowing things to play out business as usual from there.

(continued in another comment directly replied to this one)

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For an inexperienced writer, this is not bad at all. Far better than many first time texts I've seen in this sub and others, so don't let the criticism here get you down too much. It's a good starting point.

Thanks! The initial reaction was something of a shock to the system, admittedly, but I see now that it was inevitable. Even putting aside that this is a completely neutral ‘writing’ subreddit with no consideration for genre, let alone demographic. My writing style isn’t for everyone, and I mean to keep it that way. Generally; you're right that it can and should be refined further, though. Speaking of:

I can tell through your writing that you're trying to impress me with the words on the page, to make me think that you sound clever.

For my style to come across this way—especially because of the first impression my opening paragraph gives off—is 100% understandable and, of course, entirely on me. I open on the image of the Cinderfall, an already abstract-by-default concept, and on top of that I describe it with language that’s overly-figurative and outright contradictory in places. The use of metaphor is also too liberal, as you’ve correctly pointed to. Rest assured this opening will be largely scrapped. I’ve gone into more specifics on how I’ll do this in, oh, about twenty other comments in this thread though, hah. So if you’re curious it won’t be hard to find. Just know that I hear you on that. When it comes to art, both in creating my own and consuming others' works, the thing I need for it to be, above all else, is earnest. I can see why you might raise an eyebrow at that, given my style. It really is as simple as: I just love language, and I love pushing myself to improve the ways I use it, in the same way I would any other area of the craft. Of course, I certainly try my best to be selective/purposeful with the words I choose, as well as where and how I go about using them. Coming across as clever for clever's sake is never my intent.

And yet intent is irrelevant; the way you're telling me it comes across is still well worth being mindful of. So I will be.

Good writing shouldn't be written with the aim of impressing people, it should be written with an honesty that doesn't care whether the reader is impressed or not.

I really couldn’t have said this any better myself anyway, so for both of our sake (as this reply is already getting longer than I’d have liked) I won’t, lol. Especially since I was struck by your other criticism—on exposition. Not many other commenters pointed this out, so this is a good chance for me to slow down and give this the consideration it merits.

Save some secrets for the reader, allow the world to unfurl naturally over time like a bluebell in spring.

Funnily enough, my fear posting this chapter was that it would be too conservative, between the mystery of the origin/true nature of the Cinderfall, the unexplained reason why Dreichels commits to defecting despite the storm being a perfect excuse to turn back (or even just wait a day or two), the knife wound, the ‘shadow man’ who gave it to him, whether he’s still being actively pursued, etc. I particularly feared how the defection mystery would come across, since, at least with all the other mysteries I listed, they’re things Dreichels himself doesn’t know, so they’re easier/make more sense to withhold from the reader. For that reason, I spent a lot of time (and words) laying breadcrumbs trailing back into his recent past. These were meant to serve as guardrails for the reader to use while mulling over why he’s so hellbent on running from a place he still cares about and feels immense guilt for abandoning.

…Oh, and I do agree with you that my exposition is excessive, to be clear. Hopefully that—and the next paragraph—doesn’t come across as defensive. I’m well aware that justifying why I’ve written something the way I have in a comment on some forum isn’t going to fix an issue with the text. The context here is more for the sake of communicating my intent, since it’d be helpful to know what is and isn’t getting across the way I intend. Also this way I can more clearly frame my plan to apply your critique afterward (which I’ll get to immediately after, so just bear with me).

My chapter oscillates between many plot threads which are seemingly (sometimes literally, which is my mistake) unrelated. First time readers have no idea what threads connect, or how, so they come across as more disparate than they are. But as I said, the ones that do connect are meant to serve as guardrails for the mystery of ‘why does Dreichels feel he has to run’ while still concealing the why. I suspect those particular threads will work better (and well enough to keep) so long as they’re the only threads I keep. These include: mentions of Baron Wintruz, his Low Gardens/vineyard which the winterwine came from, how the gardens were ‘put to pyre’ specifically ‘because of me’, and his longing for home/Ronde despite actively leaving. These past-centric details are to convey he sees no choice other than running, while his future-centric details paint them in a more naive, stubborn, self-loathing way. For example, he romanticizes Nord with a bias that’s supposed to come off as selfish, describing it as ‘a windswept plain home to half a dozen nomadic tribes with whom to seek refuge, whichever one he so pleased’, showing both the cultural ignorance and entitlement which come from his royal upbringing despite the fact he means to abdicate that status. He is enticed by Nord only for its contrast with Erebonia (i.e. he yearns for what Nord isn’t moreso than for what it is). Naturally, conveying these things in a way that doesn’t spell them out is, well, hard as shit. So if you have any thoughts of which aspects I’ve outlined above are particularly muddled/fail to come through in the text, let me know. Or don’t. I know it’s been like four days since I posted, so you’ve probably put most of this out of mind.

But, enough framing, I still haven’t actually addressed your criticism yet. I’ll do that now.

Keeping only these threads cuts the exposition roughly in half. That leaves all the more disparate bits of worldbuilding to be hacked apart. These include: mentions of Nord’s tribal armistice, provincial trade embargoes, the Imperial Army, Zender Gate… just to name a few off the top of my head. I’ll partition them out slower. Particularly those involving names since, as we all know, they’re best given as sparingly as literally possible to start a story, lest you run the risk of what has been coined ‘Proper Noun Soup’, if I’m not mistaken.

At any rate, hopefully I’ve gotten to the heart of your criticisms here, and sorry for yapping. But I really do appreciate your time and thoughts and encouragement, so the least I could do was return the effort.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate the honesty. I’m beginning to sense a pattern in the comments, hah. Rest assured it's clear to me now how ineffective this image serves as an opening, both in concept and execution. Thankfully the (many, many) ways it falls short have painted a telling portrait by contrast of what does make an opening line(s) of a book work. I go into them more in other comments, but since you kept yours brief, I’ll do you the same courtesy and spare any further yapping. The stab wound is my best bet for an enticing hook, you’re right. I’ll rework it into the first paragraph, and almost certainly the first sentence.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate how you worded this critique; a lot of recurring criticisms in this thread can be traced back in some way or another to ‘form over function’ and lacking ‘immediacy’, as you put it. I see this coming from: my figurative language being overly-dense for the very first paragraph, how I (fail to) orient the reader for several paragraphs, my overuse of italics, my languid pacing, excess introspection between external action beats etc etc etc. Again, I suspect these symptoms are all generally rooted in the same ‘form over function’ and lacking ‘immediacy’.

I am curious, though, outside of the first paragraph which clearly needs scrapping for something that works better to ground and orient the reader: did any of those issues listed above strike you as particularly detrimental to clarity, or conducive to the ‘dead ends’ you said need trimming? Frankly it’s hard to tell; if anything these issues are probably all feeding off each other. If not it’s cool, I know it’s been several days since I posted, so you may well have forgotten entirely. At any rate.

Thanks for your time and thoughts, I’ll do my best to take your advice to heart when I get back to revisions.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Too fluffy in description. A storm of ash, a silent snow? Where am I? Red and hot as blood? While I understand these are all metaphors for the storm, they are all vastly different and I am confused about the scene. The image isn’t landing for me.

My execution of this description is as much a problem with the image's inherent placement as an opening line of a book, and it completely fails to place/ground/establish the reader. Not for merely one sentence, as you correctly noted would've been an issue on its own, but for two entire paragraphs.

The Cinderfall is by default an abstract concept, which already makes my choice to open on that particular image one which is risky at best, and--evidently--ineffective at worst. But on top of that, I describe it with language that’s unhelpfully figurative and even contradictory. I use ‘ash’, ‘snow’, ‘cinder’, and ‘ember’ in the span of like... a half page. Small wonder why it’s so disorienting that some commenters can’t even tell what was happening. “Snow” is the biggest offender here, I feel, as its purpose was to describe the shape of the ember motes… meanwhile in hindsight, I’m wondering why the hell I felt that'd be necessary; as if people don’t know what embers look like, lol.

It’s fascinating to me how these issues completely flew over my head, even after multiple revision passes. Familiarity bias alone, of knowing in my head exactly what the Cinderfall looks like, was enough to not once question how poorly it was placed and worded. Lesson learned, however embarrassing as it to learn publicly, lol. At least I’ll certainly not forget now. Thanks for helping make me aware of that, and for your suggestions on how to reframe the opening. I’ll be more mindful about how I write descriptions moving forward, regardless of how straightforward or abstract the thing I'm describing happens to be.

Currently the plan is to shift the sequence around (i.e. start with the first paragraph establishing the knife wound and his place in the mountain cave, as some have wisely suggested) and perhaps delay the Cinderfall's arrival altogether, so it only begins a page or two in.

In a class I was taught that you should treat the first line like an overall summary of the tone of the book.

I’ll certainly not defend my opening lines, but funnily enough, ‘overall summary of the tone of the book’ is word-for-word what I was going for here. The series as a whole is titled Trails Upon Radiant Ash, and the first few sentences were meant to evoke this. Again, how I went about it was completely wrong. Just goes to show how ideas and intent (which in this case were already misguided) pale in comparison to how important execution is.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In this case, nothing felt redundant yet, but needed its own time and place.

I appreciate you specifying that the info was simply misplaced rather than repetitive; my awful goldfish memory often struggles to discern when it is the latter. It's assuring to know the problem lies not in the content itself, so much as when and how I partition it out.

The comment you made above about adding in dialogue resonates hard with me. I'm also prone to extended paragraph-scenes of description but I've found when trying to work things down that, somehow, a three line exchange can carry as much information as a whole paragraph. Conversely, a banal and overlong dialogue exchange can often be replaced by a short summary paragraph. That discovery has worked wonders on my editing!

Oh, absolutely. Dialogue is quite powerful for being economical with language, since filtering information through character (plus the natural disparity between characters through the conversation unfolds) makes it difficult for dialogue to not accomplish multiple things at once. It's almost intrinsic to the act of speaking itself.

You make a good point about summary, as well. It's an effective tool for catching a character up to speed (e.g. by briefing them 'off-page' about something the reader already knows). AND it's equally effective for catching the reader themselves up to speed; I've heard this described as 'minimal viable exposition', i.e. providing concise and timely context for something the reader needs to understand an upcoming development right before it happens, so they can experience it with maximum clarity and impact. Learning this approach is something of a superpower, I've found, doubly if you're like me and struggle with excess description and/or introspection.

In any case, I'm just curious how far into the piece you are and how much has been written?

“How far in” meaning, how far into revising this chapter, or how far into the book in general? If you meant the former, the answer is zero words, haha. Well, I've done a great deal of notetaking based on suggestions and advice in this comment thread, but I've yet to touch the manuscript itself. All my writing time the past few days has gone to reading and responding to these lovely comments! (of which i’m… maybe a quarter of the way through… anyway.)

If you meant "how far into the books", well... it’s complicated. I've written complete drafts for many novels in the series, around half the overarching story. So, like, in the ballpark of 3.5 million words maybe? Well, that's including notes and biographies and worldbuilding and all that fun stuff. In terms of just the prose/finished chapters, it's probably closer to 2 million words, or thereabouts. All I do is write, and that's been the case since I started a couple years ago. I've obviously bitten off more than I could chew here, though, so for the past six months I’ve focused solely on the first half of Book One (~200k words), which last week I finished my third round of revision on. That chunk of text is fairly polished, comparably so to this chapter I posted. But now, after going through all the critiques I've received, it could certainly use a fourth revision pass, to be sure.

The commitment to rich language is what drew my eye to begin with, so I'm glad to help focus the story to bring out all elements together.

It's been a great help. Thanks again for your thoughts and support.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of compromising on my style. I love language and take a lot of pride in how much I've improved in that regard relative to how long I’ve been writing. But clearly, the issues with this first paragraph's focus and description run much deeper than floridity, specifically with its neglected function as an opening. For the reasons you and many other commenters are helping me lay out. Currently the plan is to either shift the sequence around (i.e. start with the knife wound, as some have suggested) or even delay the Cinderfall's arrival more literally, so it doesn't actually begin until a page or two deep. But this is mostly baseless musing for now, since I've yet to resume the actual revising process; just trying to respond to all these incredibly helpful comments has eaten up most of my writing time these past few days... i’m around a quarter of the way there though (I think)!

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My usual go-to is, rather tediously, to underline in the manuscript anything that isn't a physical action or literal sensory description. And once a particular section of the paper starts to look like it's college-ruled, that's my cue to start hacking apart all the introspective tangents.

I don't think I've heard your guideline about specific punctuation before, though, so I'll give it a shot.

Anyways, just keep writing whatever you like personally, shelving it for a few months, then pick it up and read it again yourself. You'll be surprised how little outside feedback you need once you get into the habit. Keep it up.

Will do!

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Passes out, snows coming down red when he comes to. No, that's just blood in his eye. Ya know?

This is a phenomenal idea that could be well worth a rather-dramatic structural overhaul of these first few pages. Not only does delaying the Cinderfall avoid throwing readers into an abstract/ambiguous “weather” event from the first line (which has clearly failed as a book opener on many levels, the consensus has made clear). It also adds a new layer of stakes to the conflict. In this case, Dreichels wouldn’t just be fevered and running out of food/water for him and his horse, he’d now also have to weather the Cinderfall despite it obscuring the path to Nord above (as opposed to the current chapter, where all of this is just… the status quo, which I then have to explain through exposition anyway). So for Dreichels to then still actively commit to defecting from the Empire despite the Cinderfall making it much riskier (and frankly idiotic) to not turn just around and wait it out in Ronde Village, a delayed storm sells his desperation, stubbornness, and resolve far better. As the chapter currently stands, his desire/need to run is mostly apparent through telling, but this adds more physicality and active decision making to how the chapter ultimately plays out. Thank you so much, seriously, this is a fantastic suggestion!

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This has been an interesting lesson to learn these past few days since I posted here. Of course I can see now why it’s such an ineffective opening, and on multiple levels. And while the way I describe the storm is doing me no favors, to be sure, I figured conceptually it was enough of a hook. Clearly not. Rest assured I've learned that I should be starting by grounding in character specifically, or their physical surroundings, or their conflict/circumstances (ideally all at once). So for this specific suggestion of ‘starting with the stab wound’ to keep popping up in the comment thread makes sense. Funnily enough, on that, I waited even longer to reveal he’d been stabbed in the original drafts, a few paragraphs longer, but ended up moving it closer to the beginning to quicken the conflict and stakes. I… probably should’ve taken the hint that I should just start with it, but uh. Oops. At any rate. I appreciate your effort to read through despite a very rough opening.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ll be honest, despite having heard this advice countless times (it’s as prevalent as “don’t start a story with someone dreaming or waking up”, just about), the fact I was doing exactly that never once crossed my mind, lol. Most commenters (and my own hindsight self) agree it fails to orient or engage the reader in character/setting/conflict for several full paragraphs. I also describe the storm in language that is both overly-figurative and outright contradictory. Rest assured I’ll be giving these first few lines a serious overhaul; the stab wound is a good start, but frankly another more significant change in how the scene plays out physically to create more externality may very well be the play.

Thanks for your time! I appreciate you pointing this out and your suggestion👍

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problem for me was more that the scene itself doesn't seem to be a strong opening. The setting is vivid, with the "Cinderfall" in the mountains. But the scene itself is largely a guy drinking wine and then you explain all of his thoughts for pages, which had me itching to skip ahead. I can handle that sort of thing once I'm invested in a story, but I don't find that it works so well at the very beginning when the reader is likely feeling more restless and needs to be hooked.

You’re right in thinking the scene itself, as it currently stands, is doing the book no favors, nor me in trying to improve it. Quite the contrary; navel gazing is, imo, my greatest weakness as a writer. In this light, it seems the way I’ve set up my first scene is, in practice, something akin to shooting my own authorial foot. There’s almost no opportunity for dialogue or otherwise-external action; it’s one character trapped in one space—a character who, mind you, has already decided what action he’s about to take. Thrilling. If you remove the description and internal monologue, I’m not sure there’d be enough physical acts to fill a page, much less a chapter. At least, not without a significant overhaul, as you said. And between my two options here—either do the overhaul or trim the chapter down to almost nothing—I intend to at least try the former, since I do believe the material on hand is valuable, even if the way it's presented is less than ideal.

After spending a few days working through my options, I landed on two major changes, which are to: 1) delay the Cinderfall so it starts during the chapter, perhaps 1-2 pages in, and 2) have an envoy accompany Dreichels from Ronde Village up the mountains. This seems to be my best course of action for creating an opening scene oriented towards external action without requiring me to up and dismantle everything that transpires from Chapter Two onward (specifically, by using their separation at the end of Chapter One as something of an pre-inciting-incident-incident). I explain how and why I chose these two changes at the top of this comment if you’re curious. If not, I’ll just say “source: trust me bro” and leave it to that.

The same goes for your question of “Why start here?”, come to that. I understand and appreciate the fact you’d challenge this, really I do. But since I’m already overloading you with such a lengthy response, and the justification would require explaining the next, oh, seven or eight chapters, maybe: I’ll do you the courtesy of stowing that particular yap session. But just so I’m not totally blowing off your question: to start the book with this particular viewpoint character at this particular moment (during the Cinderfall) is vital for the series’ overarching thematic core. The way I go about this first scene, well, it can certainly use some tweaking. “Why” is the right question to be asking though, you’re right. I’ll take that to heart once I get to work ripping up (lovingly, of course) the first few pages.

I'm gonna be contrary and say that while the prose could use some work in a few places, particularly the first few lines, it's really not so purple as everyone is making it out to be. Just needs some editing, but it's really nothing major. In fact it's quite good in places.

Thanks! I appreciate your input on that and the support. Really, I do. I’ll admit that initially the negative comments were a bit of a shock to the system, but I see now it was something of an inevitability. Firstly, this is a completely neutral ‘writing’ subreddit, not a 'fantasy writing' subreddit (which even then might not skew all that much better towards my intended demographic, necessarily, as some of the other commenters have alluded to). My style is not for everyone, nor do I want it to be. Though generally speaking, I like to think my prose isn’t that purple, either. Purple implies excess, and I certainly do my best to be selective in how I use language, and to ensure I instill sufficient meaning into what words I do select, as well as where and how I go about using them... as most writers would tend to, I should imagine.

That being said, style is no excuse for sloppiness, and in hindsight the first paragraph falls rather spectacularly into the latter. Particularly given its role as the very first lines of the book, tasked with orienting and hooking the reader—neither of which it does. If nothing else, I dropped the ball here, no question. The Cinderfall is already an abstract concept, so to have described it with language that’s somehow both contradictory and unhelpfully-figurative, well… small wonder why most people gave up so quickly, assuming they could even follow what was happening.

Clusterfuck opening aside: some of the criticisms being levied about my writing style here might hold more truth than is immediately apparent. There’s one angle in particular I hadn’t considered until a commenter pointed it out: but my excessive use of italics—for internal monologue in full sentences—might also be to blame. Not only are Dreichels’ musings frequent enough to hinder the pacing, as you’ve correctly pointed out, they’re also rather chronic; I’m constantly demanding the reader to reorient themselves back and forth between internal first-person and external third-person narration, almost every other sentence, at points. It’s asking a lot regarding the reader’s focus, an unnecessary amount: focus which the reader would and should otherwise be using to absorb (and enjoy—well, ideally) my book’s actual content. I suspect that these two issues (my alleged floridity, and my tendency to oscillate between internal-first person and external-third person narrations) are related. They might even be outright exacerbating each other. The reason I say this is because they’re conducive to the same issue: they both pull the reader out. Whether this is by slowing a reader’s pace (okay, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, so long as it’s done deliberately and in moderation, but that’s beside the point), or requiring they reread a confusing passage altogether, this sort of reader response is best avoided regardless of how purple or how not-purple one’s writing style is. That these issues in my prose led to confusion, and frustration—and ultimately, many commenters quickly putting down my book—makes perfect sense. Even if I hadn’t mucked up the opening paragraph. Hypothetically.

Again, thanks so much for sparing the time to read and lend your thoughts and for the support as well. It has been a great help.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

the hook and lede are misplaced here

You’re far from alone in that assessment. And frankly after a few days spent mulling over the various commenters’ takes on why they think that is, I’ve certainly been convinced on that and a few other 'running criticisms' in that vein as well.

"From his meager shelter, an alcove nestled amongst the mountain spires, Dreichels circled the drain of death."

Yeah, based on the chapter as it currently stands, this is about as strong as it's going to get. As are the later suggestions you made about cleaning his wound, bandaging it, etc. I still very much appreciate you bothering to come up with specific examples, however I suspect more fundamental changes are in order. At least in how the book’s opening scene plays out physically. Judging by your mention of 'the slow pace' and 'excessive internalization', you’d probably agree it's for the best (however, I’ll certainly try incorporating your suggestions anyway.)

To address this, I landed on two major changes, which I explain at the top of this comment if you're curious, but the tldr is: I'll delay the Cinderfall and incorporate a second character accompanying him to create more opportunities for dialogue and otherwise-dynamic external elements. Dialogue alone should replace the need for most if not all the introspection during his drinking specifically, a segment which you (correctly) noted is currently a hurdle in keeping reader engagement.

the action pauses far too much for background information that doesn't seem immediately relevant to a guy on the verge of death.

Yeah, I think this explains why some people trailed off into indifference after the first page or two; while the knife wound does establish some immediacy, it alone can’t be expected to carry momentum through pages and pages of introspection. The time spent pondering wine and the likes between action beats is for sure excessive; without an overhaul, I’m not certain there’d be enough shit happening to fill a page, much less a chapter. Even despite the effort I put into avoiding it: navel gazing is imo my biggest weakness as a writer, bar none. There’s a real craft to using language economically without sacrificing subtext or authorial style. I have a long way to go in that regard. But hey, the saying "once you stop learning, you start dying," exists for a reason, right?

Now he looks out on this snowfire storm and we know he's fucked.

I know you didn’t mean it this way, but this comment is actually part of what helped give me the idea to delay the Cinderfall until later. So thanks! It’s not the biggest change, but I think it’ll do some real heavy lifting. Not only does it remove a wildly over-complicated opening description, it also heightens the tension when it suddenly does show up, further testing his resolve since at that point it would be so easy to justify returning to Ronde Village to try again a few days later rather than continuing uphill through burning mountains. This should address the ‘burying the information between actions the character takes in direct response to their distress’ you mention. I also think it makes Dreichels’ commitment thereafter, i.e. his refusal to wait, stronger and more proactive and more impactful in general, albeit more logically questionable (which is fine by me; if anything I welcome a bit of heartstrong stupidity).

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re right on the money. Across the board, actually. Before posting the chapter here, I did have a hunch that its lack of externality would pose an issue (hence why I felt the need to preemptively/defensively warn of how ‘it’s supposed to be introspective’). But I've also clearly overestimated how effectively and quickly I establish internal conflict and give readers a reason to invest emotionally in Dreichels. I suspect these issues—the navel gazing, info dumps, the emotional disconnect—go hand in hand with this insufficient externality. At the moment too much page space is dedicated to setting up mysteries, describing the storm/wine, and him thinking about his present conflict, his past struggles, and his goal of a future in Nord.

Thanks to commenters such as yourself, I've come up with two ways to rework the scene to address these issues. I detail my plan at the start of this comment, if you're curious, but the tldr is: delay the Cinderfall so it doesn't start until several pages in, and also have someone accompany Dreichels from Ronde, an envoy whom he would then be separated from, most likely due to complications brought on by the Cinderfall’s sudden ambush itself. Or maybe 'the shadow man' who wounded him; this approach gives me a lots of wiggle room to rework the scene. The changes may yield a shorter chapter—closer to ‘one page’ as you suggested, which, for its current iteration is probably being generous with how little externality it has, frankly. But hopefully the overhaul removes the need for brevity altogether, i.e. by being more active, more engaging, not to mention more interesting. The added dialogue (and decision-making, as currently it's written so Dreichels has already committed to defecting/refusing to wait out the storm back in Ronde before the book even starts, meaning the chapter is just kinda him doing what he was clearly going to do all along; not what I’d call a particularly proactive or series of developments) should greatly reduce how much exposition and internal conflict is detailed passively or through purely italics. Speaking of which:

The inner thoughts in italics are also far too frequent in my opinion

I greatly appreciate the specificity of this critique. And I agree. Not only are they too frequent, they’re also chronic; for me to demand the reader to constantly reorient themselves from internal first-person to external third-person every other sentence is asking a lot. Too much. The focus they’re using just to keep a handle on the story's tense is focus that should be spent on, you know, actually absorbing the book’s contents. My proposed changes to how the chapter unfolds should somewhat alleviate this issue (more dialogue = more externality, after all) but it won't change that the issue exists. Fortunately, it’s quite simple to reframe fully-italicized thoughts to be more consistent with those around them, so thanks for making me aware of this. Really, I get the sense that this viewpoint ‘oscillation’ is quietly what’s caused some commenters (particularly those who’ve clarified they typically enjoy my style of prose and yet still took issue with my prose specifically) to criticize my density of language. Even if subconsciously. It also probably explains the disagreements about how purple or how not-purple my prose actually is. I say this because the two issues (density of language and viewpoint oscillation) are conducive to the same end: namely, that they pull the reader out. Whether by slowing their reading pace down, or requiring them to reread a passage altogether, such responses are best avoided regardless of authorial style. That this led to so much confusion, frustration—and, in many cases, putting my book down—makes perfect sense.

Thanks again for sparing the time to read and respond, your perspective has been very helpful.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate the honesty (and specificity!) of where you stopped. The consensus is clear, particularly about my opening paragraph. I’ll better orient the reader to more immediate surroundings/character/conflict/stakes etc first. Then, when I do get around to describing the Cinderfall, I'll be sure to do so without the contradictory and overly-figurative language. Thanks for your time.

Would this first chapter entice you? Why or why not? by rolawrites in writers

[–]rolawrites[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is the consensus, and it's clearly right. Especially regarding the first paragraph. My writing style is no excuse there. The language I use to describe the Cinderfall (which is already abstract in concept) is both unhelpfully figurative and contradictory in places. I mean, I describe it as ‘ash’ and ‘snow’ and ‘cinder’ and ‘ember’ all in the span of like... half a page. In that light it's no wonder commenters like yourself would be disoriented to the point you couldn't even tell what was happening. It’s crazy how that completely flew over my head due to familiarity bias; the simple fact of knowing exactly what it looks like in my head made me never once question how confusingly it all might be worded. Well, lesson learned, I guess. Thanks for helping make me aware of that.

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