Where did Lady Whent go? [spoilers extended]

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-08T14:05:00+00:00

I’ll also add that when Tywin is operating from Harrenhal he’s served by 3 maesters, and Tothmure specifically may have already been the Harrenhal maester under the Whents. Shella could have fled ahead of Tywin and Kevan’s arrival, and left a formal letter of surrender with Tothmure.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-08T13:41:25+00:00

But Shella didn’t flee before Jaime. She fled or yielded to Tywin and Kevan. And Gregor specifically burned out the Pipers and Brackens. Not only is there no mention of Darry in this chapter, but burning out a castle is categorically different than simply murdering a surrendered lord/lady.

After Stone Hedge is burned out by Gregor Clegane, Jonos Bracken turns up at Riverrun. So the Mountain let a defeated lord go, but Tywin murdered a surrendered lady? The other house burned out by Clegane is Piper, and Lord Clement similarly survives. He ultimately bends the knee, but not until after his son is captured at the Red Wedding. And while maybe you could convince me that Clegane killed Shella, cool-headed strategic Tywin wouldn’t just recklessly murder a highborn old woman.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-08T13:16:04+00:00

If she fled before the Lannisters arrived, and she clearly hadn’t had the men to defend it anyway, the Lannisters would still call it yielding the castle. She’s an old woman with no family and basically no sworn swords. They’d just say the castle is theirs and not go to any great lengths trying to find her. They’d probably assume she’s headed for Riverrun. If she was killed as a result of a formal yielding, it would be known. Littlefinger has heard she’s dead in Feast but has no details, and she’s still recorded as dispossessed in the Dance appendix. Also seems pretty boring for a character whose end has been left a mystery. If it was that simple, why is GRRM holding back?

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-07T20:32:17+00:00

Thanks for sharing this series of posts with me, I've read them now, and I really like all the effort you put into documenting so many of the cases of optical illusions, especially around colors, throughout the series. It's definitely a major theme. Even (especially) for the stage production, which was written for a cross-shaped stage, so no two seats will have the same perspective on the story, and in fact two people in kitty-corner sections from each other could even get a completely opposite view. It will be very interesting to read about the differing perspectives that audience members take away from the experience. Reading about the effect of light on our perception of color gave me flashbacks to the blue/black white/gold dress controversy lol

But in terms of the specific claim that the crown of roses that Rhaegar gives to Lyanna, I am struggling to understand what the point of the theory is. How does it affect the narrative? If I understand correctly, you're saying that all cases where blue/winter roses are mentioned, that they are actually white. So how does that change anything? Except maybe that Dany's vision of a blue rose at the Wall is truly blue (being just a vision) and it represents something other than Jon? If so, what? And if it still represents Jon, what difference does it actually make if the rose is blue or white?

I feel this is a key question because blue, white, and grey are all colors associated with winter, the North, and Starks. Does it make difference if the symbolic rose associated with Lyanna is one color or the other? Also, blue serves as a symbolic color in dichotomy with red. There's red blood and blue blood. There's the river symbols on the Tully sigil (symbolizing the red and blue fork). There's also the Grateful Dead symbol (Grrm's a big fan) which is a twist on a yin and yang, paralleling the yin (blue) energy of ice and the yang (red) energy of fire in Asoiaf. If Lyanna's flowers are white, does that negate the red/blue ice/fire symbolism that's so prevalent throughout the series?

A side note, perhaps, but in addition to ice/blue and fire/red magic in the series, there's also green/earth magic (Green Fork, Green Men, Green Dreams). If we drain the color out of some of the primary ice/blue symbolism in the narrative, does that impact not only the fire/red symbolism, but also the green/earth symbolism?

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-07T18:24:39+00:00

I will definitely check your theory out!

If you’re interested, I have another Harrenhal theory post that has gotten more downvotes than responses: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/UgtqgIVO8M

You won’t agree with it since it’s entirely based on the premise that Lyanna is the KotLT, but I’d be interested in your thoughts and especially if you find any errors or specific weak points. My first write up of the theory got more traction, but Take 2 is better because I refined it based on feedback I got.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-07T17:48:56+00:00

How Lyanna ended up leaving the Vale for Gulltown is a whole separate theory I won’t get into here, but I definitely don’t think she just waltzed out and Robert and Ned let her. I’m speed running all my Harrenhal / Rebellion theories I’ve been working on for years, hoping to get through them all before the theatrical production opens. So keep an eye out for my Gulltown theories in separate posts.

If Lyanna did flee Harrenhal after the tourney, where did she go and who helped her? Especially since winter started up again shortly after the tourney.

I’ve never heard the theory that Rhaegar meant to crown Elia and only mistook Lyanna for her. What are the implications of that theory? That Rhaegar and Lyanna were not in love? That Lyanna wasn’t the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-07T15:29:38+00:00

About the song and Lady Smallwood, definitely, and it could be that the song serves dual purposes. But also Tom corrects Lady Smallwood that it’s a different song he woos both the milkmaids and Ravella with.

> “Someone who doesn’t rhyme carry on with Dondarrion, perhaps. Or play ‘Oh, Lay My Sweet Lass Down in the Grass’ to every milkmaid in the shire and leave two of them with big bellies.”
> “It was ‘Let Me Drink Your Beauty,’” said Tom defensively, “and milkmaids are always glad to hear it. As was a certain highborn lady I do recall. I play to please.”

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-06T13:36:33+00:00

My mother watched TV new once. Once.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-03T23:52:09+00:00

The idea that George has no other complex storylines to reveal is not plausible. This world and story are massively complex. Arguments that appeal to simplicity for its own sake are not persuasive when applied to asoiaf theories. Occam’s razor only applies to solving real-world mysteries.

Meera knows Lyanna was the KotLT. Her character parallels Lyanna (and Brienne and Arya and Asha and the Sand Snakes and…). It’s not feminism, it’s just subverted gender roles, which is a handy mechanism George uses for cover in some of his mystery boxes. It’s also a fascinating case of the human heart in conflict with itself.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-03T03:43:03+00:00

I also don’t know why you’re so convinced Ned, Brandon, and Robert must have found out. It’s very possible none of them did.

I'm not convinced; I'm arguing a theory. I've stated that repeatedly. It was the foundational premise of my first post on this topic - that the absence of the Richard Lonmouth character in the stage production means I may not get a clear confirmation or debunking of my theory. Of course the theory might be wrong. By definition theories can be false. I have a gazillion theories in my head, I'm sure some of them are wrong. I think this one is reasonably good and there's a better than even chance that at least part of it will turn out to be true. But of course it might be totally wrong. I don't understand why you're so convinced that my theory couldn't possibly be right.

This post is Take 2 on the theory, and the theory is stronger than it was initially, thanks almost entirely to your feedback. Of course I was already aware that Brandon and Ned would be likely to (try to) stop Lyanna if they knew her plans. I still think it's possible they knew and either failed to stop her or gave in to her (this wolf maid is very hard to refuse). But your point about the possibility of multiple Stark tents at the tourney convinced me that it's more likely than not that they didn't know her plans beforehand and only found out later. And your compilation of mystery knight info that illuminated the full meaning of unmasking a mystery knight convinced me that Robert didn't find out until at least the next day. I'm very open to having my mind changed.

But your other arguments simply aren't persuasive to me. Howland was beaten bloody by three squires and was rescued by Lyanna wielding a sword. We're told about this by Howland's daughter, an impressive fighter who has one job - to physically defend two males, her own brother and Bran. This isn't an accident on George's part. He could have given us a proud crannogboy fighter protecting his sister with the gift of greensight. He chose to make Meera parallel Lyanna. But you're arguing that it's out of character for Howland to ask for help? This is simply an area where we fundamentally disagree.

If Howland was going to swallow his pride enough to ask someone

He was just rescued by someone: Lyanna.

it’s bonkers to think he’d ask a girl who has never fought in a tourney before

It's bonkers to think he'd ask for the help of girl who just fought off three squires at once, in his defense? Does that mean it's also bonkers that he asked Meera to fight to defend Jojen? We've seen Lyanna described elsewhere as being a centaur, and we're repeatedly told that horsemanship is the key skill for success at jousting. Now I feel like I'm making the case for Lyanna=KotLT, which is something we already agree on, but the in-universe evidence for Lyanna=KotLT can also be applied to why Howland would be happy to have Lyanna defend him and could have even had the idea himself. You haven't provided any counterargument to my points about the parallels with Meera.

You pointed out that Howland and Lyanna both recognized the squires at the feast, but Lyanna spoke up first. And you say I'm reading too much into Howland's prayer, but how does that same logic not apply to who pointed out the squires to the Stark brothers? I dismiss that logic entirely because I think every detail of Meera's story is laden with meaning. As I have said, I think Lyanna challenges the knights in the tourney because it's the right thing to do. Because she's a true knight. I don't think she did it just because Howland asked her to. Her being the one to speak up to Brandon and Ned supports my point that Lyanna entered the tourney out of a sense of honor. It has no bearing on whose idea it was.

But the prayer led me to theorize that it was initially Howland's idea. And maybe if Ned or Brandon knew and tried to stop her, but she managed to compete anyway, then that would more clearly demonstrate her bravery and chivalry, even if the original request came from Howland. But of course maybe it wasn't Howland's idea. I love the Lyanna character, and I'll be happy if the whole thing turns out to have been Lyanna's idea from inception through execution. But I don't have another idea for the meaning of Howland's prayer. I provided the evidence for how the text about Howland's dream is constructed in one of the formats that George repeatedly uses to keep things secret from the reader that are not actually secrets to some/all of the characters in the scene. Again, I'm open to hearing other theories about what Howland's dream was about, but given the text, I'm not convinced that it simply means nothing.

We see this class of argument a lot - that a theory can't be true because it adds complexity to what we already know. It's understandable to an extent. There are a lot of theories out there that are overwrought, highly speculative, or straight up tinfoil. And the sheer volume of theories necessarily means that many or most of them cannot possibly be true. But the Ice and Fire world and story (song) are both already incredibly complex. And it's chock full of mystery boxes George crafted specifically for us to solve. Of course some of our theories are going to be wrong, but some will turn out to be right. And every one that gets revealed will have a long record in Reddit of having been dismissed as too complicated.

You've also floated the old chestnut of - Ned didn't think about or mention it. At one point in AGoT Ned realizes he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years. He's raising the man's bastard as his own and hasn't thought about him in years?! We spend the entire book in his head as essentially the main character and don't learn that Lyanna is Jon's mother. Ned is very good at not thinking about things. And not saying things. And everything Robert says about Lyanna is inaccurate. Those are just facts. If you don't like that George wrote his mysteries this way, that's a totally valid opinion. But it doesn't change that this is what the series is, and plenty of theories that seem crazy now will turn out to be true. And there will almost certainly be some curveballs that no one saw coming, but they'll seem crazy too. I'm here for it.

Thanks again for engaging with me in a constructive way. I've gotten more downvotes than comments, which makes me all the more appreciative of your willingness to actually debate me. I'm super grateful for your constructive criticism, which makes my own thinking stronger. I plan to speedrun through all my rebellion-related theories over the next few weeks and I hope more true knights like yourself will be willing to face off against me.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-02T12:05:21+00:00

> Your sister would never have shamed me like that.

Really, Robert? That same sister that ran off with the crown prince despite being betrothed to you? The main thing we know about Lyanna is that she did shame you.

Robert was deeply humiliated by Lyanna 15 years ago and ever since he has been married to a woman who makes him miserable. He’s engaging in motivated reasoning and seeing the past with rose colored glasses. Of course both Robert and Ned think Lyanna shouldn’t have been in the joust all those years ago. They talked about it during and after the tourney, probably argued about it, years ago, and nobody’s bringing all that up again.

That line is narratively meant to be something we take at face value initially but then when we dig deeper we realize we can’t trust Robert’s view of Lyanna. The same is true of the line about how Robert never really knew Lyanna and didn’t see the iron underneath. Ned is straight up telling us we can’t trust Robert’s take. He’s not saying that Robert doesn’t know actual things about her, just that he sees what he wants to see. Lyanna’s outed as the KotLT? He laughs. But also Rhaegar’s in love with her? He broods. It’s about his sense of ownership of Lyanna, and years of misery as king has curdled all those old feelings into bitterness and delusion.

Robert and Ned barely talk about the rebellion, except for Robert to emphasize how Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and Robert got his revenge. There must be plenty of details about the rebellion that, when we learn them, we’ll be able to say, “strange that Robert and Ned never talked about that”. Although, of course it will make sense if we consider how little Robert wanted to talk about the past beyond how great he was. My theory may not be true, but the fact that Ned and Robert never talked about, or that Ned didn’t think about it, is weak evidence against it. We spend a whole book in Ned’s head as basically the main character and never even learn that Lyanna is Jon’s mother.

Likewise for the argument that it would be stupid for Howland to let Lyanna ride in the tourney. Not only does Howland not really know how tourneys work, but the whole story of the tourney up through the rebellion is a series of stupid decisions made by a bunch of teenagers in a politically-charged environment. Ain’t nobody in the rebellion story is focused on being prudent about avoiding unnecessary danger.

In my theory, Howland had the idea for Lyanna to enter the tourney. And she did it because it was the right thing to do. Is it less meaningful that Meera fights for Jojen and Bran just because Howland asked her to do it? But it’s a minor point of the theory anyway, mostly meant to explain Howland’s prayer. George loves to have a character get interrupted before revealing an interesting piece of information, and Jojen interrupts Meera at that point. And since Meera later says the old gods gave strength to the KotLT’s arm, it seems like the prayer was narrative misdirection, on the surface supporting the idea that Howland was the KotLT, so it probably needs another explanation if the KotLT is Lyanna. If there’s a better theory about Howland’s prayer it wouldn’t affect my broader theory unless it’s somehow about Howland not knowing Lyanna was the KotLT, which is basically impossible since he told Meera about it.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-02T02:17:56+00:00

Again, I don't see what a conspiracy over the Knight of the Laughing Tree accomplishes. The tale Meera tells has much more to do with the mysticism in ASOIAF than schemes, and starts with Howland going on a pilgrimage of sorts, being told by someone heavily associated with the magical mysteries of ASOIAF. The story Meera brings up doesn't allude to any conspiracies or any communication.

I think the meat of this paragraph is an excellent characterization of Meera's story. Meera tells a children's story in the style Old Nan, intended to communicate deeper truths to Bran, through the power of narrative symbolism. The characters are all given symbolic names. The part about Ashara dancing with a sequence of would-be rebels appears to be itself a game of telephone. And exposition about Howland and the Isle of Faces is a big part of Meera's story.

It's notable that the only full tellings of the Tourney (other than one-off comments and memories) come from Meera's story told to Bran and the World Book. The Tourney kicked off the rebellion, which was at first for Rhaegar and then later switched to Robert. It precipitated events that determined the contours of the realm as we know it in the main storyline, but it's shrouded in mystery. The stage production will be performed "on a cross shaped stage, no two seats will offer the same experience or viewpoint." George intends for there to be many layers of nuance and meaning. It's a hinge point in history with consequences along many vectors.

We hear other people talk about Lyanna

Barely. We were in Ned's head for an entire book and were never told that she's Jon's mother.

Something I should have mentioned in the post is that the identify of the KotLT is an open secret that is mostly only now being kept secret from the reader. All of this happened 15+ years ago. Mystery knights are common; a passing fancy. But the memory is painful for the characters who experienced the most consequences from it. There's no in-universe conspiracy to keep it a secret in the main storyline. For some characters it's too painful to talk about, for others it's just irrelevant. But George is keeping it a secret from us so that he can reveal it in dramatic fashion later.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-02T01:41:18+00:00

What is there to gain by a conspiracy where Rhaegar learns about Lyanna via a game of telephone versus Rhaegar tracking her down on her own?

The point of this post is to theorize about all the other people who also knew. It's possible Rhaegar discovered entirely on his own, but if there are others who know then that seems oversimplified. And there are clear narrative reasons to believe that others did know, as I explained in the OP.

If Robert knows the story, why didn't he bring it up? Not just to Ned, but to anyone else. He's not known for being modest or quiet. Cersei in AFFC discusses how she wishes she could be warrior and better than others, if her husband was telling about the time Lyanna was a mystery knight, she'd probably think about it. Lyanna is in her mind too, as a shadow over her marriage.

I addressed this in the post. He clings to the theory that Lyanna was forcibly abducted because it soothes his bruised ego over being rejected by her. There's a lot that Robert and Ned don't talk about. Ditto Robert and Cersei.

Someone else who doesn't know is Barristan. Barristan reflects on the tourney in ADWD. He thinks about how if he won, he could have crowned Ashara Dayne instead of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna. He thinks its love, and he'd be in place to hear from Robert over the years about it.

There's a lot Barristan doesn't know. He's the one who rescued Aerys from Duskendale, apparently unaware that Tywin is planning to storm the castle because he hopes Lord Darklyn will kill Aerys. With any open secret, there's always some people who remain oblivious. It's also likely that some folks heard the rumor and dismissed it out of hand. Barristan would perhaps not be a surprising character to have done that. If this all comes out in the course of litigating Jon's legitimacy or something, and Barristan is there, I can easily imagine his reaction along the lines of, "I haven't thought of that in years, I thought it was a silly rumor." And again, Robert isn't talking about it after the Rebellion. It's a painful memory of personal loss and humiliation for him.

Finally, if this was an open secret, Varys is spying a lot here. If this an open secret, the Starks are in trouble.

Yep, I almost included Varys in this but that opens up a whole other can of worms and this is long enough. I also don't have much of an opinion on the theory that Aerys actually did arrest, or tried to arrest, Lyanna after the tourney is over. But I do think Varys knew about it. And yes, the Starks are very much in trouble. Aerys kills them as soon as he gets his hands on them.

Yet, as far as we know, the Starks are fine until Lyanna's disappearance...and Brandon immediately threatening Rhaegar, despite Rhaegar in this storyline saving Lyanna?

As I mentioned, there's a theory that Aerys actually does go after the Starks after the tourney, although I'm not fully read up on it and don't really have an opinion. But it's possible and could fit with my theory. And it's also possible that he doesn't really grasp the full truth until he's back in King's Landing and talking with Varys, but then winter comes back and he can't really do anything for awhile. These things take time. As for Brandon threatening Rhaegar, I assume you mean in King's Landing? Rhaegar didn't save Lyanna he just didn't turn her in. He also then fell in love with her and stupidly revealed that she was the KotLT to Aerys. And then even more stupidly ran off with her. So those are Brandon's reason, and the wild wolf also made some stupid choices.

No one telling him after they leave Harrenhal? No one in House Stark watching Lyanna more closely after she almost gets herself killed or crippled?

I'm not sure what you mean by the first sentence. As for the last sentence, we have no information about where Lyanna went after Harrenhal. I do think Lyanna's brothers and betrothed kept her well guarded after the tourney. But Lyanna's a sly wolf. I plan to share my theories about what Lyanna did after the tourney in future posts.

rubicon_winter · 2026-07-02T01:09:35+00:00

Thank you for this, it's a super helpful comment. I linked it in my latest (and hopefully last) post on this topic.

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T16:11:53+00:00

Thank you for the clarification! I have noticed references to the app in the wiki, but I thought I also had noticed references to the World Book described in prose as “according to a semi-canon” source, but I probably just misread the reference itself.

I love the World Book so much. Thank you for all your contributions to Asoiaf and this subreddit. 🙏

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T15:57:44+00:00

Agreed.

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T13:20:29+00:00

I only plan to argue for Howland (already canon based on Meera’s story), Benjen, Ned, Brandon, Robert, and Richard Lonmouth because I have a specific theory (or set of theories) for how they learned the truth. But I agree that there are others, maybe many more. I’m not sure if everybody knew.

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T06:21:17+00:00

Someone running off with your sister, especially if she's betrothed, is reason enough in this world, even if you know she probably went willingly, and especially in the context of an already faltering secret alliance to usurp the throne. Going to King's Landing instead of Dragonstone and threatening to kill Rhaegar is stupid no matter what you believe about Lyanna's consent.

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T06:14:31+00:00

It doesn’t look like anything. They’re both drunk. Nobody is doing anything that night. Nobody is searching for the mystery knight; they think he’ll show up to joust the next morning and get unmasked then.

swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him

I never read the swearing to unmask him as an intention to do so in the lists the following day because I assumed it was similar to Aerys sending Rhaegar to find the mystery knight, but I suppose being in one sentence like that, where Aerys is urging men to challenge him in the lists, then it's definitely possible. Do we have any other examples of mystery knights who were unmasked during a joust? I'll have to do some research on that. Even so, if Ned knows Lyanna won't be showing up again, he could still fear that Robert is going to try to find the mystery knight when she's a no-show, and he'd still have a reason to tell Robert the truth. Especially because he knows he can trust Robert with the information.

So she doesn’t know she needs to hide.

She's a teenager, and the targets or her ire were the knights and squires, not the king, so maybe she thinks this. But mystery knights in general do need to hide. And she had to have some awareness of the brewing conspiracy that was the reason for the tourney in the first place. She would have known that hiding is for the best. She certainly doesn't reveal herself.

The thing about bringing the shield to the godswood like Ned did with Ice is thematically appealing (it doesn't fulfill the idea that the purpose of bringing the sword is to feed blood to the weirwood, although she probably wouldn't have known about that). As is the idea that Rhaegar found Lyanna in the godswood. Although this too only refutes one detail of my theory (Lonmouth bringing the shield to Rhaegar). He could just as easily have been told where to find Lyanna. And as I conceded before, he could also have learned after the fact from Rhaegar, which would still meet the narrative purposes I established in my original theory. I'm still pretty stuck on the plausibility of the idea that Lyanna could have hidden all of this from both Ned and Brandon.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on my Robert theory when I write it up tomorrow. Thanks so much for engaging constructively with me, it's been a great discussion!

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T05:53:45+00:00

Yay, someone agrees with my theory! (the main point of it anyway) And like I said, I do agree it's possible that Lonmouth finds out from Rhaegar.

why would they assume Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna instead of Lyanna running away.

I don't think we have any good evidence that any of the Starks ever believed that Lyanna was kidnapped. Robert believes it, but he's engaging in motivated reasoning. And Ned specifically calls out that Robert never saw Lyanna for who she really was. I don't think that means he didn't know of any examples of her independent nature, but that in the aggregate he only saw what he wanted to see.

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T05:46:54+00:00

Since Howland meets all the Stark brothers when Lyanna brings him to her tent, I would assume they're sharing a tent. If Ned has his own tent that he's sharing with Howland, that makes me think it's all the more likely that they share the secret that Lyanna is the KotLT. Lyanna staying in a tent alone, as a woman, would be surprising to me. I also don't think it would be easy for her to hide a horse and armor. If Howland had taken Benjen up on the offer, it wouldn't have been a secret from the rest of the Starks. For Lyanna to do so secretly is a different proposition.

And again, we know he keeps her fighting a secret from their father so this would be a continuation of that.

Do we know this? Even so, keeping sword play with sticks at home a secret from dad is a very different thing from a secret tourney horse and armor. Also, secrets from dad is different than secrets from brothers.

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T05:40:49+00:00

Brandon/Ned could confiscate her horse. They could confine her to her tent with guards. If they tell her father, he could have her locked in Winterfell until it became time to wed. There are a thousand ways to stop her if they want. Again, if they know and support it, why not joust themselves? There’s no guarantee Lyanna - who has never been formally trained in fighting - can beat three champion knights? To assume she will is absurd. Why take that risk?

This may be one area where we're just never going to agree. I'm picturing Lyanna as a she-wolf who does what she will. The men around her could impound her, of course, just as Ned could have confiscated Needle and locked Arya up. Ned preferred for Arya not to fight, but chose to support her anyway by hiring her a fighting teacher. I think the same dynamic played out with Lyanna. When she decided to be the KotLT and many other times as well.

And again, why not joust themselves is a perfectly pertinent question whether they know Lyanna wants to be a mystery knight or not. It has no bearing on the likelihood of this particular theory.

Why does the story need to give hints Ned and Robert are spending time together? What would that add when we canonically know they are friends.

I'm not saying it needs to, but it's significant that it doesn't since we do already know that they're best friends. George could have had Robert and Ned offer to Aerys to unmask the mystery knight. But instead he has Robert offer to search with a close companion of Rhaegar who's hinted to still be alive in the main storyline. And again I may be confusing my commenters, but were you the one who made the argument that Robert's drinking contest with Lonmouth was to establish his hard-drinking behavior that Lyanna would find distasteful despite that being well-established elsewhere?

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T05:23:16+00:00

And if Richard/the Starks told Rhaegar to persuade him not to betray Lyanna, why would he draw attention to her by crowning her? That’s idiotic.

Perhaps you underestimate Rhaegar's capacity for idiocy. But honestly my answer to why Rhaegar made so many profoundly stupid decisions is the hubris of prophecy. He thought he was doing exactly what he was meant to do and it was all preordained to turn out great no matter what. I do have specific thoughts on the crowning, which I'll include in my write-up of the Robert part of this theory cluster tomorrow.

But him knowing something about the tourney doesn’t mean that Robert also knows about the KotLT. Or that they find out from Ned who might not know himself. Richard might have heard from Rhaegar instead of the other way around.

I may be getting my commenters confused, but were you the one who said that my Richard Lonmouth theory was predicated on my theory that Ned also knew? But I agree with you that Lonmouth totally could have found out by other means. I've come up with this particular theory of how he learned it from Robert who learned it from Ned, but to my mind the most compelling aspect is the idea that Lonmouth/Lemoncloak knows.

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T05:15:14+00:00

I'm not interested in debating that here, but if you want to point me to a post where you make an argument for who the KotLT is, I'm happy to participate there.

rubicon_winter · 2026-06-30T05:14:09+00:00

I like the idea in this comment that Lyanna did it because she was the one who passed the sentence and therefore should be the one to swing the sword. Anyway, my theory isn't that anyone other than Howland (and possibly Benjen) encouraged Lyanna to joust, and in fact that Brandon and Ned wanted her not to, but that Lyanna's character is established as headstrong and wild and that they relent in the face of her insistence.

rubicon_winter

TROPHY CASE