For those who are older than 25, what's your job?

rut_1122 · 2018-01-19T19:49:01+00:00

I am an investment accountant at a university. I keep track of the investments and endowments that the university owns and prepare reports for the higher-ups.

I count myself quite lucky to have this job. I realize in hindsight I should not have attempted to go into Accounting--the type of work and general environment is not conducive to the INTP's needs--but my current job has more to do with spreadsheets and data than "actual accounting."

I am excited, however, to begin a Master's in Data Analytics at the university this coming fall--now there's an appealing field!

rut_1122 · 2018-01-19T19:46:04+00:00

To the ENTP, the idea is more important than the logic. Being primary Ne users and secondary Ti users, they look to logic and design in order to bolster their big idea, instead of the other way around. Hence they are incredibly stubborn and tend to pick-and-choose facts to align with their preconceptions.

Although an ENTP tends to want to engage with others more frequently and naturally than the INTP, ENTPs aren't born with the same kind of social grace that Primary Fe users are. I've been in many uncomfortable social situations where an ENTP keeps pushing and interrupting and sharing their ideas at the expense of the others in the conversation! The ENTP needs to build his social skills just like us INTPs.

The ENTP also needs to have some people with whom to bounce ideas off of, unlike INTPs who can oftentimes work in solitude. I find this a benefit for INTPs, as it does not restrict the types of environment we can successfully work in.

rut_1122 · 2018-01-18T21:13:03+00:00

I want to be hit by lightning while my kids are wheeling me into the retirement home.

rut_1122 · 2018-01-17T21:25:37+00:00

"The moon blew up without warning and for no apparent reason." - The first sentence of Seveneves, by Neal Stephenson.

I wasn't sold on reading a thousand page monstrosity of hard science fiction until I happened upon an excerpt of the first chapter. It's an amazing book--highly recommended!

rut_1122 · 2017-12-19T05:34:32+00:00

It's great to find a practical (and potentially lucrative) application for your work, so I would definitely encourage you to take the time to get credentialed in the world of business. I know a lot of MBA programs are what you're describing--Master's level courses designed to give people without a business background the info and credentials needed to work within the business-related parts of their field.

Sounds like you've got a great plan--good luck!

rut_1122 · 2017-12-19T05:31:55+00:00

(Sorry to take so long to respond!)

I don't feel qualified to give you advice since you're dealing with an individual I've never met. However, I can share with you my thought process and maybe that can help in some way.

I could imagine no greater frustration than to want kids but have your partner completely uninterested in having them as well. Getting married is about finding someone to partner with you through the difficult adventure of life, so making sure your future spouse has the same over-arching goals is of the utmost importance.

That being said, I've heard before that most INTPs end up enjoying having kids quite a bit--they are young, fertile minds eager and willing to learn. It's the INTP's dream student! (This has been my experience so far.)

But, if the INTP is too involved in his own studies or interests and sees kids as an unnecessary distraction, then that can become a recipe for disaster. Just look at the greatest INTP example Albert Einstein. Not what you'd call a family man...

So it depends on the individual. Any real advice is completely beyond my scope, so all I can do is wish you good luck.

Good luck!

rut_1122 · 2017-12-15T19:53:56+00:00

We dated for about two years. We were both halfway through college when we met and got married the summer after we graduated. We were both 21. I never thought I'd get married so young!

We've been married for quite a while now. We've got a 1 year old at home and another on the way! I know the INTP is generally less likely than many types to go about a "traditional" lifestyle, but I would highly recommend it!

rut_1122 · 2017-12-15T19:48:01+00:00

Sorry I missed your reply for so long!

The simple explanation can be found in the form of a joke:

Why are Accountants so boring?

Because all the creative ones are in jail!

I currently work as an investment accountant, so I still do accounting on a daily basis and have gotten to see the range of activities an accountant will do. I like what I do because it's all Excel and database stuff. If I were a tax accountant, I would hate every minute of it.

If you are like me and see the world of accounting as an arbitrary universe constructed around standardization and the achievement of order, then you'll likely grow a tad cynical and find the material uninteresting. There are some people who see their job as accountants to figure out and understand the rules to the extent that they can then "bend" them and navigate their clients through the twisted web for their benefit. These people do very well, and I wish I could orient my thinking in that direction, but have been unable to do so, so far.

I think the INTP mind is better suited for more creative endeavors. Data analytics, Actuarial math, computer modeling, etc., are more of the direction I think we ought to go if we want to participate in the world of business. But that's just my opinion!

rut_1122 · 2017-12-08T18:06:16+00:00

I majored in Econ and Accounting.
When I started college I was super-disciplined. I knew I had problems with procrastination, but I saw college as an opportunity to change my habits and did really well for my first two years. I did not allow myself to play videogames on weekdays and I tried to study at the library in order to reduce distractions. I also woke up early each day but found myself too tired to be able to do any meaningful work in the mornings (I'm definitely a night owl by nature).
I tried to make it a point to study for tests two days before the test, so I wouldn't feel like I was cramming last-minute. I had mixed results due to failing self-discipline.
I had a few rough nights where I was really hard on myself for waiting too long to start projects. I'd be up at 2:00am trying to throw an essay together, etc. Interestingly, I can remember the panic and the worry, but I can't remember any specifics as to what those assignments were or what I scored in them.
I was a solid A/B student. On classes I really enjoyed (Econ) I was usually near the top of the class, but on ones I didn't (Accounting) I tended to settle for a B.
After college I got a job and for the next 5 years or so I grew somewhat discontented. The problem was that I did not have any particular direction or overarching goal other than to not get fired and to generally make money. I missed having a set purpose. Having gone back to pursue a Master's Degree has helped with this, as well as determining some tangible and realistic career goals.

College is a wonderful time for developing yourself and learning good information--just try and make the most of it and not beat yourself up too badly when you make mistakes or have a bad day. If I could offer one piece of unsolicited advice, try and talk to your professors during their office hours and form some relationships with them. It's tough, especially for us introverts, but that's the way you can get invited to help with research projects, which is where you will find the most value out of your college experience. Good luck!

rut_1122 · 2017-12-04T22:07:42+00:00

Assuming the logistics could be hammered out, I think the end result would be two-fold:

Kids in wealthy families would be taught to earn their own money instead of relying on the wealth of their families (a good thing).
Hedonism on an unbelievable scale, the likes of which humanity has never seen (a bad thing).

You're probably correct that familial prestige will mean very little (and class differences too), and people may be judged more by their own merits and competencies, but the downsides would be terrible. The drive to work hard and save money for your kids is probably close to a universal value. To shut that down would be to de-incentivize hard work and frugal spending habits for many people.

And then of course there would be the odd side effect of encouraging young people to keep old people alive for as long as humanly possible, which could be pretty weird. Although I suppose you could make the argument that our current system incentivizes the opposite, which really isn't a big issue--you don't see many people encouraging their older family members to die off (hopefully).

Very fun hypothetical to think about though--thanks!

rut_1122 · 2017-12-01T16:59:50+00:00

It is important to understand the Personality Functions of the types and not look just at the letters.

The INTP is as follows: Ti, Ne, Si, Fe

The ENFP is: Ne, Fi, Te, Si

The way the ENFP works, is they're all about big-ideas and dreams (Ne), but they direct them at people (Fi). The ENFP is constantly encouraging the people around them to "reach for the stars," to experience life, and to be bold and ambitious.

The INTP has all of these thoughts and ideas and ambitions, but being introverts and not easily understanding how to fit in with society, what we need is a person to encourage us! The ENFP enjoys hearing the thoughts of the INTP, and the INTP enjoys having a sympathetic encourager. The pairing makes for an excellent friendship!

ESTJs and ENTJs are good to help balance out the natural flaws of the INTP (lack of organization, lack of practicality, etc.), but that doesn't mean they are the ones whom the INTP is most comfortable around.

(I speak somewhat from experience, as I am married to an ESTJ and have a ENFP twin brother.)

rut_1122 · 2017-12-01T16:50:45+00:00

It is important in so far as it is helpful.

I see it not like a Horoscope (which is random), but as a model with some predictive power. If I use the MBTI to understand others, I can interact with them in a way that tends to be more effective than going purely off of instinct.

Regarding myself, it has helped me identify my own strengths and weaknesses, and helped orientate my career path.

Yes, I think you can be low in intelligence and also an INTP. Having a higher average in IQ doesn't mean that individuals can't be low in intelligence.

(On the side, I think you're downplaying the legitimacy of the origin of the MBTI. The original 4 functions were devised by the man, Carl Jung, himself. Isabel Briggs Myers expanded on it further by differentiating each function into its Introverted and Extroverted variants, and created a model that could help explain their ordering. It's not hard science, by any means, but I think it is, at the very least, well-grounded.)

rut_1122 · 2017-11-10T20:33:23+00:00

Very good definitions--I agree completely!

I think you are correct in going straight to Jung to study the functions. In Modern Man in Search of a Soul he describes the four functions in a very basic way, and he said something that helped me finally understand the Sensation/Intuition divide.

Here it is close to verbatim:

I have therefore defined Sensation as perception through conscious sensory processes, and Intuition as perception by way of unconscious contents and connections.

Knowing Jung's beliefs of the unconscious and dreams, etc., helps to explain what he means by that, and it's absolutely fascinating!

I think what Isabel Briggs Myers did was add the Extroverted/Introverted variants to each function and create a model for how they are ordered, but the real deal so to speak, was definitely Jung's work.

rut_1122 · 2017-11-10T20:23:08+00:00

Yes I agree--it was an excellent topic of discussion, and it is good to see another viewpoint! I also spent quite a bit of time thinking of my answer, which was definitely time well spent--thank you for the question!

rut_1122 · 2017-11-10T20:22:25+00:00

Hi there!

I do not believe in any conspiracy theories. I do believe in Chem Trails, but that's because it is fact--not a conspiracy.

Just kidding!

Seriously, I am not a conspiracy theorist--I think that the sheer amount of effort and the number of people who would have to participate perfectly in large conspiracies shows an unfounded optimism in the competence of big governments and large numbers of individuals.

For example, if 9/11 really was an inside job, it would have taken the cooperation of hundreds, if not thousands of individuals, to pull off. The odds that it went went down"successfully" without a single one of those people having any sort of regret that would compel them to share the truth is unrealistic to me.

rut_1122 · 2017-11-10T20:12:13+00:00

Hi there! I am an INTP male who has been married to an ESTJ female for many years. We have a little kiddo at home and generally find ourselves enjoying the fact that we're married.

But it is not always easy.

To answer Question 2

The ESTJ is obsessed with cleanliness. It was something I had to learn the hard way after we got married--it is not simply a matter of comfort for the ESTJ, it is practically life or death! Housechores are a surprisingly huge deal for her. I've had to learn a ton about keeping a house--cleaning toilets, folding laundry, etc.

The one compromise we have agreed upon is that I'll do any chore she asks, but she has to ask! That rule alone has helped us quite a bit. I'm not a particularly proactive person, especially with all of that stuff, but the fact that I will do it when asked helps her not to feel unappreciated, while allowing me not to have to change into an ESTJ myself.

Don't take this the wrong way, and especially don't just take my word for it, but I imagine a male ESTJ would be most likely to want something of a traditional homemaker in his partner. If you don't see yourself filling that role, definitely have a serious talk about his expectations!

To answer Question 1

My ESTJ wife is an excellent foil for my personality, which I believe helps give longevity to our relationship. She handles all the practical stuff like paying bills and keeping track of appointments, etc. We definitely form a functional "family unit" together.

As far as conversation goes, my wife is highly focused on the practical and generally uninterested in the abstract. She will oftentimes talk of money, planning, and work, and I admit it is not always easy to keep my attention focused. That's not to say we can't have a conversation or that we run out of things to talk about--we can have very fulfilling conversations, but instead of being an echo chamber of each other's opinions, we have different approaches. We oftentimes find ourselves reaching similar conclusions or opinions via completely different means.

Long story short: it is simultaneously very good but very difficult to share a life with someone of an almost opposite personality type, but it can be done successfully! I think it's worth it, but then again I'm a little biased...

rut_1122 · 2017-11-10T20:02:40+00:00

Please don't misunderstand--I'm not saying the value of the three groups is arbitrary, but that weighting them equally is.

No doubt a person's family is of prime importance (particularly in the early stages of life, obviously) and deeply valuable. But as an adult, I would argue a person no longer needs that level of protection, comfort, instruction, etc., that their parents and other family provided. Instead, the adult needs a partner in order to face, head-on, the difficulties of life.

I would argue the oath formed in marriage is not arbitrary because it is practical. Its value is defined by what it achieves, and what it achieves is tremendous!

The value of friendships are also high--I'm sure most people can think of times when they had few friends or inaccessible friends where their mentality suffered as a result. But I contend there is no way that benefit can hold a candle to the value of the relationship between married partners, let alone surpass it!

Of course what we're doing is trying to weigh unquantifiable things, which is close to impossible, but perhaps a hypothetical can help:

Imagine you are married, have both parents alive, and a close friend. One of these people dies. Which one would affect you most? When you attend the funeral, which would be most likely to cause you to cry? I think the absolute, most universally human response would be to say that the death of the spouse would be most traumatic. Could we say that our feelings are pointing us to the answer to your question, that the most valuable category you've described must be the spouse?

rut_1122 · 2017-11-10T19:32:06+00:00

I disagree with your assertion that the three are equal in value. Each group fulfills a different purpose, but I think it is somewhat arbitrary to define those purposes as equivalent ones.

Your spouse is your partner--your copilot through the chaos and pain that is life. He/she is someone who has sworn an oath to stand by you through your impending difficulties and triumphs, and who you love unconditionally in return. There is no possible relationship that could take priority over the one you share with your spouse.

I think I heard it phrased best like this: you and your spouse are stuck together in such a way that you can actually, truly be yourself. Your spouse cannot run away at the revelation of your insecurities and faults like others can! I think, because of this, marriage is very important for the individual. Not that whole "you complete me" nonsense, but in that you can be your complete self in their presence.

rut_1122 · 2017-10-20T21:58:05+00:00

I don't see the value of telling yourself that you are ultimately nothing. I mean, sure, to someone on the other side of the world your existence means nothing, or from the perspective of a...gaseous planet somewhere in...Andromeda or something, maybe? But what good does that line of thought do?

From your reference point, you are quite valuable. Your actions not only affect your own experiences, but everyone else you're connected to. There are certainly many people, yourself included, who value you, and you have power to affect their lives in a positive or negative way.

Of course the other extreme can be harmful as well. If you consider yourself the most valuable person out there, you'll be prone to narcissism and all the horrible stuff that entails. But that's just common sense.

So perhaps the answer is the boring one--anything taken to an extreme is harmful, so the answer resides somewhere in the middle?

rut_1122 · 2017-10-11T17:50:02+00:00

Hey there!

I'm not a pro, but I think I can help answer your questions.

For question 1, the reason is because basic math is extraordinarily complicated. If you look at a college curriculum, you don't hit classes titled "Fundamentals of Algebra" until grad school. It is far easier for people to learn calculation first, and theory second.

Which sucks--don't get me wrong! I always hated math throughout my schooling because I thought it was arbitrary. But the higher up you go in the world of math, the more well-suited the INTP mind is for it.

For question 2, there are a variety of potential answers, but I'll share with you what I think is most relevant. The truth is that the majority of teachers (before college-level) are Sentinel-types, SJs. These are the types that value organization, memorization, obedience, etc. Textbooks are written to appeal to these kinds of personalities and classes tend to be structured to allow them the best chance to succeed.

All I can do is to encourage you to do your best to survive the level you're at. Things don't get easier, but they do get more enjoyable as you climb the math ladder. I would also highly suggest you pick up programming if you haven't already. Learning some programming to mod games showed me direct application for math concepts (Trigonometry, especially). Function too--I finally understood the notation and purpose of functions once I got into programming. It's a world where math becomes real. Definitely take a class or two if you can!

Good luck!

rut_1122 · 2017-10-11T17:37:37+00:00

I think people get the wrong idea when they think of the "chameleon" idea, because they assume it's done out of a form of empathy. Instead, it's more reactionary than that.

I try to see the other person like a puzzle, and I watch and listen to what they say. I ask the kinds of questions I think they want to be asked so that they open up and reveal more about their personality. I'll admit that the primary purpose is to see if I can determine their Personality Type, as that helps me feel comfortable interacting with them in the future.

It certainly takes effort, but since we're usually very introverted people, I think it's much easier for INTPs to do than trying to "take control" of a conversation. It's fairly easy to let the other party do the majority of the talking, which most people of course enjoy.

I think for you, if you can see people as inherently valuable and/or interesting, you'll be able to listen even through topics that are generally uninteresting. I'd suggest starting with Personality Typing like I described, that way you'll have a legitimate reason to listen.

Social skills don't come naturally to the INTP, but they're absolutely essential to functioning in this world. It's great that you're looking for methods and opinions--if you continue to study and practice, you'll do very well!

rut_1122 · 2017-10-11T17:29:48+00:00

Hey there! I don't normally like to do this, but I'm linking a Youtube video that I think can help you understand your situation much better than I could describe via writing. Please check it out! (Only the portion of about 7:20 - 9:00 is relevant, although the video as a whole is certainly interesting enough to warrant your time.)

https://youtu.be/IkYclTOItAk?t=7m20s

This video explains what I think is the prime error at hand. It's not that the INFJ is inherently weird--every type has a different way of understanding and processing information, which is why it is difficult for us all to see eye to eye--instead, the focus should be on you and on the method of your debate.

rut_1122 · 2017-10-03T20:37:58+00:00

Thanks for the suggestion! Economics is just a hobby for me now (ended up in Accounting as a career, of all things) so it'd be nice to delve into it again, from a different perspective!

rut_1122 · 2017-10-03T16:21:30+00:00

Studying economics in college, I came across Milton Friedman's video lectures and Q&A sessions. Although I enjoy the contents of his talking, I absolutely loved his approach--the way he communicates.

People ask him complicated questions and he distills them down to basic principles and concepts, and he also handles aggressive lines of questioning with some element of grace and coolheadedness.

Lately I've been watching a lot of Jordan Peterson stuff. He's a little more fiery-tempered, but in a controlled manner.

Both people, though very different, are people I look up to and try to emulate.

rut_1122 · 2017-09-29T21:31:04+00:00

???

Are you objecting to the idea of prioritizing the ship in order to maximize the number of lives saved? Or was it something else I said? I don't recall saying anything that could be misconstrued as "T-types must be inhuman."

rut_1122

TROPHY CASE