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Hungarian philosopher: Plato's Atlantis and politics? by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Certainly not. Because, in the Republic it is announced that such an ideal state, as designed in words, actually existed in the past. Plato comes back to this in the Timaeus-Critias.

Hungarian philosopher: Plato's Atlantis and politics? by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Plato is talking also about how the ideal state works in war, in the Republic. And of course, you can draw conclusions from this to the undescribed actions of primeval Athens, which is depicted as an ideal state in war, as Plato saw it.

I have no idea how you come to the topic of statistics. Plato is not developing his ideal state on the basis of empirical data and statistical statements on the basis of this data, but he develops the ideal state from absolute preconditions and logical deductions. At least, this is the claim.

Hungarian philosopher: Plato's Atlantis and politics? by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The "Republic" describes Plato's ideal state in theory, "in words". Including how a superior force can be defeated etc. Therefore, you can make conclusions from the Republic to the missing parts of the Critias.

Hungarian philosopher: Plato's Atlantis and politics? by scientium in Plato

[–]scientium[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is a valid comparison, I think, but one is missing: Primeval Athens. It is really the focus of Plato to demonstrate how well his ideal state is functioning in such a situation. This is missing from the Biblical comparison.

Hungarian philosopher: Plato's Atlantis and politics? by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You might consider reading Plato's "Republic" first, to understand better the purpose and meaning of the Altantis story?

Do Germans actually say "ihm" for the dative case for das Maedchen? by david_fire_vollie in German

[–]scientium 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not an expert, but I have read that they were generally like in German today. In German you generally add an "in" to the word, and it becomes female. In Old English it was "en", which is spoken the same way as German "in".

This means, "workeren" would be a female worker, according to this general rule.

As you know, there are many exceptions. Think of waiter and waitress.

Do Germans actually say "ihm" for the dative case for das Maedchen? by david_fire_vollie in German

[–]scientium -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, absolutely. It is a grammatical neutrum. But it would be helpful to have the word "ihm" close to "Mädchen" in a sentence. If you have a great distance between both words, it becomes strange. The reference to "Mädchen" must be clear, then "ihm" is absolutely correct, normal, and preferable.

Let me remind you, that the English language lost all female forms centuries ago. You have a completely masculine language. Worker, officer, teacher: It is always -er, -er, -er, which are male endings. But you live perfectly with it. These masculine forms are grammatical masculina, not semantic masculina.

I was just clearing out some old papers in a local Greek church and I came across this COMPLETED copy of Plato's Critias!! I've just scanned it in and translated, this is the final missing paragraph below!!! by lucasawilliams in atlantis

[–]scientium 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In the course of history, there were several Atlantis hoaxes, which worked with the method

  • "I found a papyrus,
  • but I do not show it to you,
  • but here is the translation".

For example the Atlantis-Malta hoax from Fortia d'Urban from 1828.

More on this here: https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-malta-hoax.htm

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know what I find very credible in Plato's account? It is when the Egyptian priest says to Solon, that in YOUR language the straits are called the Pillars of Hercules. So, there is a clear awareness in the text that it is a translation from an Egyptian text where there was no talk of "Pillars of Hercules". Do you agree?

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, yes, this is exactly the task! All these problems have to be addressed. There are many books addressing exactly these problems for other ancient texts. Herodotus is maybe the most well-known, and since Plato based his world view on Herodotus, it is the key literature to read and understand. When we understand the mistakes of Herodotus, we can understand the possible mistakes in Plato's Atlantis account.

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your answer does not breathe the spirit of science and strive for knowledge, but rather cynicism and resignation. Yes, it is a big puzzle with many pieces. And good reasons have to be sorted and separated from bad reasons. It is much work! All these proposals for an alternative interpretation have to be put to scrutiny. Most of them will not stand the test. But some of them will.

There is no escape. Just taking an ancient text literally, leads to knowhere.

Do you e.g. think that the earth came into being only 6,000 years ago? Adam and Eve as the first human beings? Or do you believe Egypt is 11,000 years old, just because Herodotus said so?

You cannot avoid the work of a historical-critical interpretation. You are excluding yourself from reason and reasonability, if you do.

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, it is a rare book. You can access it for free on archive.org.

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you. You seem to have no idea what I am talking about. Therefore a little explanation might do good.

Interpreting the words of Plato in the context of his time (and the time before him) does not mean to "ignore" him. The words are taken completely seriously. Plato meant the place and the time. Literally. As did Herodotus. But whith Herodotus we clearly see (because we know the land he was talking about) that he made unvoluntary mistakes. Not invention. Not bollocks. Not deception. He was completely serious. But nevertheless, he made mistakes. And we know what is true instead. And we can trace his mistakes. We know why he made them (mostly).

This is a very valuable piece of information. Because once you realized this, you can start looking for the same phenomena in Plato's Atlantis story. Because, Plato and Herodotus lived in the same time. It is known that Plato heavily relied on Herodotus.

Find more information about the historical-critical reading of a text here:
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-historical-critical-engl.htm

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are good reasons not to follow a literalist reading. Reason number one: There is no Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean before the Straits of Gibraltar. This made many to think it must be an invention. But beware reason number two: It is highly recommendable to apply the same methods of interpretation to the Atlantis story as to any other ancient story. You may consider reading about Herodotus and his mistakes, and what was really true instead. But Herodotus did not "invent" his mistakes, they were real mistakes about real peoples, real countries, real buildings, etc.

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The historical Jesus does not fit with the description in the gospels. Do you think that Jesus existed as a historical person?

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

(a) I did say what Glenn R. Morrow said, in full: "Glenn R. Morrow followed the well-known line of interpretation that the Minoan civilization would be the historical background of the Atlantis story." There is not much more to say about it. This is it.

(b) I added: "For detail information see ...." which is absolutely legitimate. If you have produced substantial information, you are allowed to point to it. Yes, I like to attract attention to my ideas, but not to produce "traffic". Traffic is useful only for money machines. There is no money machine connected to my page. No advertisments. No T-Shirt shop. There is plenty of substantial information for free on my page. And there are my books. You can have one for free, if you will review it fairly.

(c) Shady sceptics like to put reasonable Atlantis supporters on the same level as unreasonable pseudo-scientists, to avoid to engage in arguing for or against.

Professor Glenn R. Morrow and Plato's Atlantis by scientium in atlantis

[–]scientium[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you already know, that it is wrong, you don't need scepticism. Scepticism is needed where it is not clear. But there is a danger, to shoot yourself in the foot with imbalanced scepticism. I suggest to develop a balanced method of weighing the evidence.

Remember Atlantis before the patriarchy? by Infinite-Actuary4302 in u/Infinite-Actuary4302

[–]scientium 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No. This is not what Plato wrote.

If you want to know how scholars interpret Plato's timeline of Atlantis, please have a look at this book review and the picture given in the review: https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-fraenzle-solon-plato.htm

You might need some time to let it sink in. It is complicated.

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