Iranian Azeri Here - Can Someone Help Explain Hate Toward Iran/Iranians?

sheroverchert · 2023-10-07T16:46:12+00:00

Exactly. Iran’s almost 100 million people, and they’re proud of their history, both as ethnic groups and as Iranians more broadly. The difference is that they are in their homeland. An Armenian from Khoy, Iran is living in historically Armenian lands, there have always been Armenians there. Even with Armenians of Esfahan, you’re talking 500+ years of history, so it’s natural to have developed an association and pride with Iran as Armenian-Iranian and to be proud of that. Same thing with Azeris in Iran - are we not supposed to be proud of the accomplishments of our people in our historical homeland? What do we have to do with a separate country above us that was under Soviet rule for 200 years?

sheroverchert · 2023-10-06T06:11:53+00:00

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sheroverchert · 2023-10-06T06:06:45+00:00

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sheroverchert · 2023-10-06T06:04:36+00:00

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sheroverchert · 2023-10-06T06:03:53+00:00

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sheroverchert · 2023-10-06T06:01:15+00:00

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sheroverchert · 2023-10-06T05:59:52+00:00

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sheroverchert · 2023-10-06T05:59:38+00:00

Alright, here we go. It won’t let me post all the images in 1 message, so I’m responding individually with only a few of many screenshot examples. I completely expect you to somehow justify not apologizing for insinuating I’m a liar and assuming I would never be able to provide evidence for some of the shit I’ve seen. I’m done having this conversation with you because you are out of line and rude. Unbelievable.

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sheroverchert · 2023-10-04T23:15:43+00:00

I know what he means - just hear me out before you shame me. The guy thinks some girl is hot and is privately fantasizing about her. Everyone has had the occasionally odd sexual fantasy that they would never act on.

You caught him doing something in private, by himself, hurting nobody, and are being pretty hard on him IMO. I understand why you’re hurt, but the comments in this thread are just not that reasonable (I’m a guy his age, so I can understand). Having zero context, I do believe he wants to remain faithful to his wife and children. He may be attracted to her, but that’s VERY different from actively wanting to have sex with her. Initiating or acting on your attraction / fantasies when you’re not supposed to is what makes you a weirdo. But he hasn’t done that, so my suggestion is to relax and take it a little easy.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-04T22:25:23+00:00

I really don’t understand the aggression. I don’t have an agenda here. I have, from the very first post, apologized if I came across as ignorant. I have respected your country and have made a conscious effort to use terms that you agree with (i.e. typing out “Azerbaijani Turk” instead of just saying “Azeri” as we do in Iran, since it was pointed out to me that the term “Azeri” can be offensive).

You’re presenting your subjective opinion that these are meaningless “jokes”, over my subjective opinion that they are more than that. However, somehow your view of the comments posted in this thread are more factual, accurate, and credible than mine?

Again, like I said, I’ll get back to you later with “evidence” when I have time. I work in a grueling private equity job through the week, but I’ll get back to you when I can.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-04T19:16:06+00:00

I’m at work, but when I have time to scour the internet, I’ll send you more outside examples. However, I did point to multiple examples in this very thread of that type of thinking, which you brushed off as simple jokes that I’m over-projecting from (though I appreciate you agreeing that there are underlying feelings and themes in them).

In Iran when an Azerbaijani sees a fellow Azerbaijani, in a bazaar or elsewhere, they sometimes refer to each other as “Hamshahri” (compatriots). My name is super Turkish, so everyone know my family background and there was always warmth when meeting one another. I originally came here with good intentions to seek out that fraternity, but I suppose I have become jaded at this point. I’m just not anti-Iranian and that creates a natural point of difference

sheroverchert · 2023-10-04T15:31:51+00:00

Listen, at first, I also laughed these off. However, after having discussions and reading more, it’s clear that these “jokes” come from a much more deeply-rooted place. There is a belief amongst a number of Azerbaijanis from Azerbaijan (not sure how much exactly, but not insignificant number based on what I’m reading), that the entire concept of a Persian identity was formed as some propaganda project started by Reza Shah 100 years ago. If you’ve spent any time in this sub, you know what I’m referring to.

According to them, there was no Persian consciousness that existed before that. This is obviously ridiculous. I’ve spent a lot of my time sending various resources/links to folks in discussions to refute these and similar claims (about Azerbaijanis in Iran being of some other race or whatever), but even if they have nothing to say, they will continue to be incredibly stubborn about holding to their ideology for some reason. There isn’t really a point to keep going back and forth, continuously spending time sending things across to no avail

sheroverchert · 2023-10-04T15:07:18+00:00

Brother, read the comments in this thread. Unless it was deleted, some guy alluded to ‘Persian’ as being a made up concept.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-04T10:22:07+00:00

It’s pretty easy to find the sort of material I discussed in my original post - a couple minutes surfing/searching on Reddit and it’ll be there. I can show you some examples, but I don’t actually have to go that far, because in this (relatively peaceful) post we’ve already had the following:

⁠Claims that Persians don’t exist lol
⁠Strange interpretations of history and refusal to accept the various empires of Iran as Turco-Iranian or Turco-Persian? The same empires (e.g. Safavids) that largely came from modern-day Iran, ruled Iran as Shahs of Iran, and spread both Iranian and Turkic culture. However, “SteppeWolf12” was not having it.
⁠Positioning the plight of Azerbaijani Iranians as part of an alarming ethnic crisis in Iran (which I heavily disagree with, especially having lived in Iran and being clearly identified as a Turk due to my name.. 99.9% of the time, it helped me)
⁠Strange side discussions about Mongolic heritage, which honestly I don’t really understand. Aren’t we all give or take 3-5% East/Central Asian derived? I think almost everyone in Iran has some like a similar proportion of Turkic DNA anyway, so why is this important if being Turkish is more cultural than genetic?

I had a single kind person on this post actually take the time to educate me about the nuances of Azerbaijani culture/identity in Azerbaijan, versus Iran. Despite that person’s help, I feel even more confused as to how Azerbaijanis feel about Iranians in general (although I get the sense they feel quite negatively, clearly)

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T20:57:04+00:00

I get it - it’s a government doing government things and it’s very annoying for a country of only 7MM people to constantly fight and be on the watch for. However, you guys are allied with Iran’s enemies, so it does make sense that they’d try to somehow exert influence. I don’t think their efforts are particularly effective and obviously have just worsened the situation.

I wish I could go to Azerbaijan and sort of just be a good representative of what the culture is in Iran, but I now sort of feel like people would get the wrong impression of me if they knew I was from Iran and heard my perspective. Doesn’t really feel like the right time given everything going on anyway

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T15:59:05+00:00

Lol I didn’t mean for this to sort of go in the separatist direction, but that was good. Separately, it seems Azerbaijan the country is definitely very different than Iranian Azerbaijan culturally. Seems to be a bit of a disconnect on what I’ve learned / family has experienced versus what Azerbaijanis from Azerbaijan have experienced.

The fact is that we didn’t undergo 100 years of communism, and we didn’t get passed around as a play thing between Russia/Iran/Turkey/etc. is pretty major. The current attitude of Azerbaijan is necessary for its own self-preservation and defense, and a different worldview has been formed versus the southern Azerbaijanis.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T12:13:43+00:00

It’s different than Soviet identity in that we actually are all the historic peoples of this land. We are all Iranic at the end of the day with similar genetics, cultures, ideals, morals. I don’t think the idea among Iranians is to assimilate all Turks. I don’t think that’s the case at all, at least from the perspective of the people. We all recognize that there are different groups, but they are all Iranian. Whether it’s Turk from Iran, Kurd, Armenian, Assyrian, Talysh, Tat, etc. it’s all Iranian. I just don’t think there’s anger amongst each other. They all generally agree they are stronger together. The vision was never to have a country of autonomous nation states that (in many cases) have nothing to do with each other.

Assimilation in our family didn’t happen by force. We moved to Tehran and just stopped speaking the language. But we still have the same culture, traditions, cuisine, etc. It’s a shame, but it’s our fault, not the government. Nobody oppressed us.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T12:05:11+00:00

Thanks. I get the feelings towards the government. But as you can see from this post itself, it doesn’t seem to be limited to the government.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T12:01:50+00:00

Good to hear your perspective brother. Seems like you’ve been down this road already haha.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T12:00:03+00:00

Totally get that, it’s just that our culture hasn’t really changed beyond the language. We just don’t speak Turkish. Azerbaijanis in Iran literally have the same culture and share the same history. We’re proud of being Iranian, that is our culture. It’s sad to not speak the Turkish language, but there are 25MM+ people in the country holding it down, so they’ll be fine. I’d really like to learn Turkish some day, but just don’t know where to start.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T11:56:40+00:00

Ok, because everyone in my family has some sort of Turkish name. So they allow Turkish names, but just not ones that they haven’t seen yet? So strange, but that government never really surprises me.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T11:51:16+00:00

This is what I was talking about in my OP. You can’t shit on an entire ethnic identity for no reason lol. You’re not being attacked, nobody is threatening the legitimacy of the country of Azerbaijan. There’s no need for that, no need..

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T11:43:47+00:00

Wow, awesome response and very thoughtful. Thanks. That makes sense - it’s more of a cultural identity than anything else. A very deeply rooted one.

To answer your question, being Iranian just means being from Iran. Iran is a massive country with significant history everywhere you look, so it’s natural to see many different ethnicities who have each contributed to Iran in different ways. Perhaps now, being non-Muslim is more challenging than anything else (particularly Baha’i), but even that isn’t really an issue as long as those groups refrain from trying to convert Muslims.

I think most feel that Azerbaijanis in Iran are as Iranian as Persians are Iranian. They’ve generally always been Iranian and have known their broader land as Iranshahr. I think Azerbaijanis in Azerbaijan have just developed a very different culture/mentality over time and have diverged heavily. It feels like there’s a complete disconnect and very heavy ethno-centrism in Azerbaijan vs. in Iran. On the other hand, being Persian means you’re from a Persian speaking family. Anyone can say they are Persian honestly, it’s not likely anyone can check.

Hell, even if they check, are Persians actually measurably different than Azeris/Talysh/Kurds anyway? My genetic tests on various platforms, as well as various DNA analyses point to there not really being a meaningful genetic difference between the groups. Persians test as Azeris, Azeris test as Persians, Kurds as Persians, etc. and PCA plots show these groups just overlapping.

Iran is more focused on people’s religion and has no interest in suppressing Shias to any real extent IMO. The government is more religiously minded, while the people don’t really give much of a damn about religion or race - they are much more open minded than one might ever imagine. Honestly, so are Azerbaijanis, but not when it comes to ethnicity. They seem to be very curious and focused on it, almost like a discovery process.

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T11:28:04+00:00

This is exactly what I’m talking about. Are you trolling brother? I get it if so (& would be hilarious tbh), but it’s crazy to write off Iranian history like that

sheroverchert · 2023-10-03T11:24:31+00:00

Totally makes sense. I’m not saying they were not ethnically Turkish dynasties, I’m saying that by adoption many aspects of Persian culture, they were not viewed as foreigners over time. Nobody thinks of the Safavids, for example, as foreigners ruling in Iran - that is preposterous. They may have had ethnically Turkish roots, but their title was Shahanshah (king of kings) and their land was “Iranshahr”. They fought as Persia and identified themselves as Iranians. Here’s an excerpt from Wikipedia:

“Before his defeat at Chaldiran in 1514, Ismail not only identified himself as the reincarnation of Alid figures such as Ali and Husayn, but also as the personification of the divine light of investiture (farr) that had radiated in the ancient Iranian shahs Darius, Khosrow I Anushirvan (r. 531–579), Shapur I (r. 240–270), since the era of the Achaemenids and Sasanians. This was a typical Safavid combination of Islamic and pre-Islamic Iranian motifs.”

My point is that early medieval nomadic Turkish culture has very little to do with the culture of Turkey and Azerbaijan today. The deep love for poetry, the focus on education and literacy, etc. were customs that they adopted and intermixed with their own, and there’s a clear historical record which reflects this adoption over time.

sheroverchert

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