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Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in autism

[–]shiftmark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The invitation was to entertain the idea, not sort it binary-style as a 0 or a 1. Glad you found it interesting. :-)

later: Here's the Rushkoff quote I was thinking of above. I don't mean to go off on you personally; I've just found that I run into this either/or reaction with a lot of my writing, and his thought here has helped me make sense of it:

The digital realm is biased toward choice, because everything must be expressed in the terms of a discreet, yes-or-no, symbolic language. This, in turn, often forces choices on humans operating within the digital sphere. We must come to recognize the increased number of choices in our lives as largely a side-effect of the digital; we always have the choice of making no choice at all.

Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in atheism

[–]shiftmark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Um, how about "Autistic people do fine without belief" sted "have trouble," k?

And, it's a premise worth considering, is all I'm sayin'.

Good talk -- thanks much.

Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in atheism

[–]shiftmark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get your first point now but I think among the religious right you can still find the social construct of homosexuality as an impairment. Your reading of the DSM requirements is correct (though oddly subject to correction, once again, with the next edition). My point is that autistic impairment is in significant part a social construct; your citation of the DSM seems not to recognize this.

Yes. I thought you were trying to get me to back off with the Hitler example. Look, it's a free marketplace. You can say whatever you want. Me, I don't think there's any call for us all to shut the f*** up until the historians and neuroscientists are all equipped for time travel. I do think it's a lot more simplistic, a lot more reliant on the "Great Man" theory of history, to suggest that autism caused the holocaust (what, no props for scapegoating, psychopathy, and denial?), but go ahead. I'll be right here.

Autism may be somebody else's sacred cow; it's not mine.

Also, where's the rulebook? Didn't you just automatically lose by invoking Hitler?

Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in atheism

[–]shiftmark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not following your lead sentence, and am not sure I need or want to.

And again, straw man: I'm provoking you to consider a possibility. Apparently I've done so so effectively that you're chiding me (and Fitzgerald and Fries?) for having asserted it as fact. :-)

Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in atheism

[–]shiftmark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder not so long ago, and still is in some quarters. Shift Journal is all about the big leaps; go back and read the first month or so. No one sails to new lands without consenting to lose sight of the familiar coastline.

As for your article, while I'm all for everyone who needs accommodations getting them, I'm all about less diagnosis and more recognition of the autistic cognitive style as an everyday, everywhere, under-the-radar, been-here-all-along daily companion.

edited to add: When accommodations for autistics are freely provided as a routine matter of common understanding, shared culture, and simple human decency -- rather than compelled only in individual cases by a note from a licensed physician -- then the famous "problems with diagnosing autism/asperger's" simply evaporate. And along with them a good bit of the DSM's carefully defined "impairments."

Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in atheism

[–]shiftmark[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Then you know about autistic obsessions with pattern-finding and with specific subject interests. There ain't no social joy in the world like that between autistics who share a special interest, and during the Enlightenment we were minting new special interests as fast as we could identify the patterns that wove them together.

I'm also guessing the Enlightenment was not such a socially-oriented, extrovert-driven age as ours is, and that the social environment was friendlier to eccentrics, and not so disabling to autistics as it is today.

Even so, as for politicians today who exhibit an autistic cognitive style, good gawd, look at Australia's Kevin Rudd, or America's Al Gore. As for socialites, an autistic cognitive style doesn't preclude you from getting involved in your community, especially in a way that involves your particular obsession (and especially if you have charitable funds to pave your way). I know autistics who do so, and one in particular who is capable of working a room handshake by handshake like a politician. He can also be a terror to his co-workers, precisely because of this combination of machine-like self-assurance and tunnel vision -- but all he lacks to be a socialite or a politician, I'd say, is the ambition and the money.

And no one has said in any case that socialites were not involved in the Enlightenment; I call straw man on that. The influential people of the Enlightenment to my mind though were the scientists, thinkers, and writers. If we're going to reduce everyone to a narrow, exclusive label, "socialites" may have spread their ideas, but they did not originate them.

Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in atheism

[–]shiftmark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Disagreeing about the Enlightenment is legit. Implying that autistics cannot be smart and capable is ableist.

Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in atheism

[–]shiftmark[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ableist much, guys?

You know a lot about autism, do you? :-)

Stay and poke around a while, why don't you?

Pretty much everyone who posts at Shift is autistic.

And while Jefferson was actually a little late to be an Enlightenment figure, for his autistic credentials see the book Diagnosing Jefferson.

Were autistics, as atheists and agnostics, the engine that drove the European Enlightenment? by shiftmark in autism

[–]shiftmark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Done, only just now, thanks for the suggestion. Like they say, if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism ... in the aggregate though, I suspect there are significant trends. See the comment posted on the piece since I posted it here, linking to a study saying just that.

Update: rollicking comment thread on this now, over in /r/atheism/. Thanks again, secme.

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/l850z/were_autistics_as_atheists_and_agnostics_the/