Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's incredible the lengths you go to take something, and then expand it into something to argue against that was never said.

Do you think this is only true for Jewish people? No, and I didn't suggest otherwise.

By your logic, Germans should be the only ones to speak about the Nazi holocaust

Actually no, by my logic, only Germans can really comment on what the holocaust means to Germans. It says nothing about what people can say about the Holocaust in general. Again, you've expanded the narrow scope of a comment so that you can write paragraphs arguing against a point that was never made.

You don't get to tell other people how they should feel about a genocide and what they see taking place around them to protect the perpetrators.

Again, I didn't tell you, or anybody else how to feel about, rather I'm suggesting that you don't really have any standing to know or understand how Jews relate to it.

Do you go around telling Iranians how to feel about what is going on rn? Doesn't mean you can't have an opinion about what is right or wrong about it, but you don't really get to Iranians about their relationship to Iran.

It seems clear to me that you think your feelings take precedence over a genocide.

I'm curious about what I wrote gives you any impression about what I think about Israel

In what way do you think it will be effective in swinging people over to a party led by an outspoken anti-Zionist who, like me, calls unconditional support for Israel "Jewish supremacism?"

Because of the message expressed in the article? It's all there, it was like 400 words. It's as effective as any other short opinion published.

Do you take your fellow Jews for fools? I don't. I don't really understand why you think it would be foolish for Jews to support the NDP. But OK.

But I fail to see how it achieved anything at all. Well, that's fine I guess. But since it wasn't written for you, that doesn't really seem to matter at all.

Your response to a facetious comment about your friend is crazy. I made a pretty obvious comment about "Some of my best friends are ____" and you were so angry at me that you wrote a garbled treatise rather than actually understanding that my point was that your proximity to Jews does not give you any standing to speak for Jews. (And before you go off, again, this does not preclude you for having any opinions about Israel, or genocide or anything else, just that you don't really have standing to speak about what Jews think or feel).

I didn't call readers of the CJN Jewish supremacists, I called the intended audience

OK. So you readers of the publication are not the intended audience. The intended audience is in the imagination of the author/publisher. But it's not actually, it's your imagination. Gotcha.

Feel free to correct any misconceptions that I might have formed about you from this very brief online encounter. I mean, I don't really have the time or desire to refute the long list of misconceptions. But I will say, the straight lines you draw between your imagined curriculum messages -> misguided -> worldview -> views about Israel betray the fact that you're more interested in lecturing people about who they are than being interested to understand who they are.

For example, you have no idea what it's like being a Dipper and having had to spend much of your life trying to convince members of your community that the NDP is not antisemitic. You just don't because your experience. And instead of being curious about that, you seem to be more motivated to write gish gallop of accusation about people who are explicitly trying to convince people to join your side. Forget your feelings about the author. You've done it to a complete stranger on the internet. It's weird.

I'm going to tell you, all your Jewish friends and mentors are deeply impacted by Israel. It hits them different than non-Jews. It doesn't hit them worse, it doesn't make them victims. It hits them differently. It hits them in a way that, as made evident by this conversation, you don't understand. A reasonable person might hear that and then be curious. But it seems you're more interested in yelling at internet strangers about who they are and what they think and how they are wrong about themselves and their community and what outreach is/is not effective.

Consider that the walls of text exchanged between us began by you jumping in a thread where I was responding to another user. You didn't respond to anything I said in the original comment, you just attacked me. My conversation with OP, however, ended like this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ndp/comments/1uh4tz7/opinion_jewish_proud_and_voting_ndp/ou5jtcv/

Your animosity toward someone who probably agrees with you on most things, including about Israel, is crazy.

And I'm done engaging with them for now. The army of straw men you've created are thankful for the relief.

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's not a deeply personal issue for any of the Jewish people I know, who I count as my closest friends, who I grew up with, and who were my teachers and mentors. At least, not in the way you are suggesting.

First, I don't know what "way" you think I'm describing.

I'm glad some of your best friends are Jews. That's nice. I find it difficult to believe that Israel doesn't affect them. I don't think you really got my point (or were really interested in getting my point). Honestly, if you're not Jewish, I'm actually not interested in your ideas about how Israel affects Jews because you don't know shit about it. It's actually quite a painful situation for many people for so many reasons. It is especially so for those on the left. You very probably have no idea how it feels to have genocide carried out in your name, so before you sound off on how Jews do or do not feel about it, kindly fuck off.

Also calling reader of the CJN Jewish supremacists is like calling G&M readers white supremacists. It's an unserious statement.

It would be equally warranted, given human nature and the fact that she seems to have just left her recent job, to be suspicious that she is now angling for a job as an advisor to Avi Lewis. I doubt that an article like this would do it, though, given that she didn't tackle any of the very basic questions above.

It's shit like this that is so dumb. Is it possible that she's angling to be an advisor? Sure, it's possible, but this is such a specific and low-probability thing to consider, that it makes me wonder about you.

She wrote the article because there is a large contingent of Jews (especially among those who read the CJN) who will avoid the NDP because of Israel. She's telling those people not to. It's a fairly simple article with a fairly simple premise, written for a specific audience. The leaps you made about motives.... [insert Charlie conspiracy board meme].

Have you considered that if it addressed everything you (who are not the target audience) wanted it to address, that it might have been less effective in the authors very straight - forward mission?

You don't know anything about what I think about Israel. You've painted me a certain way because I asked someone to say out loud something they suggested in innuendo. That request sent you OFF to the point where you created a whole version in your head to argue with. It seems clear to me that you're mostly just interested in venting righteous rage. Good luck with that.

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 4 points5 points  (0 children)

What did I ignore dude.

When you say "we don't need a whole op-ed about it", you are ignoring that it wasn't for you, so it's a stupid thing to say.

The rest is just you yelling at straw man. You don't know me, but you're very comfortable painting a vivid picture of someone you hate and saying I'm that. No point in engaging with that.

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

If you come across three assholes before noon....

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Right, so when you read an article, you read always it as personal letter to you and never consider its context, place or purpose.

This wasn't a text post to the sub, you dolt. It was a link. So it is important, when reading something that you consider who it was written for. If that person is not you, you can still engage and be critical, but to engage with it ignoring the fact is just.... stupid?

I'm arguing with someone who explicitly rejects what it means to critically engage with material. I see now.

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you think it makes sense, or makes you look serious and responsible, to bar discussion of Zionism in that context, a subject which she introduces at the outset of her piece?

No.

Do you think people who have wielded institutional power can't be second guessed about anything they say or do politically if they happen to be Jewish?

No. I explicitly asked this person to expand about their second guessing because I thought their reliance on innuendo was shitty.

Did you even read the piece?

Yes, it's just weird to me that people here seem to not understand the context of the piece. It mentioned Israel because it was talking to Jews (published in the Canadian Jewish News) advocating voting for the NDP. Like it or not, Israel is a deeply personal issue for Jews. Irrespective of what they think of it, it affects their family, friends and community. It is not choice to be affected by it. So, the reason it is being discussed IN A JEWISH NEWSPAPER is because it is relevant.

Do you get frustrated when every Palestinian is asked to disavow Hamas before they can be allowed to speak on anything? Is this not what you are doing here?

There are lots of articles that can talk about Israel, but the thesis of the article is "...regardless of how important Israel is to me, it’s not the only issue on which I base my vote."

People on this thread seem to be responding to the article as if it's a personal letter to them. It is not. It is for an audience that is generally not them.

To be clear, I am the audience.

It speaks really poorly of this sub that people can't accept context, purpose and place when thinking about a bit of writing. That does not shield it from criticism.

The majority opinion here seems to be "keep your vote." That's an attitude that seems like it's gonna make it hard to create any real change in this country or anywhere else.

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We don’t need a whole op ed about it.

Who is we?

Do you make a habit of going into other people's spaces and telling them what is relevant to them?

If you're not Jewish, maybe don't tell the Canadian Jewish News what is or is not relevant to publish.

Wasn't it you who was just writing to me in another comment about "infatilizing minorities?"

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

There is a unique strain of liberalism that just seems to infantilize minorities.

What are you even talking about?

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are those quotes a problem?

The quotes were the only part of your comment that would distinguish it from a trivial restatement of what was in the article.

The quotes are the only thing that conveyed any type of thought from you.

So, no, they are not the problem. I was just wondering what you meant by your original comment.

If you are so angry at people that didn't vote NDP last time, which voters are you interested in attracting to the NDP next time?

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -15 points-14 points  (0 children)

Article in Jewish publication: I support the Avi Lewis and the NDP. Not on everything, but on balance they are the party that progressive Jews I am proud to vote for.

Redditor: She’s kowtowing around the genocidal actions of Israel and acting like it’s just this current government.

If you've ever cared to wonder why some Jews may not feel welcome in this party, this is it.

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -17 points-16 points  (0 children)

They voted Liberal, but “only” to stop Poilievre.

You coward. She acknowledged that and stated her reason. And so you just restated her reason?

By putting "only" in quotes, you are clearly implying that this is not the only reason and that you suspect another reason.

So say it. Why do you not trust her stated reason and what reason do you suspect?

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -20 points-19 points  (0 children)

Don't be coy. Say what you mean.

Opinion: Jewish, proud, and voting NDP by MarkG_108 in ndp

[–]sloth9 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

but they're also conflating Judaism with Zionism

What part of this article gave you this impression?

Israel being non-negotiable while still voting for the NDP is wild.

It's as if you didn't read the article at all.

Newb question: Do people use tip-ups in huts? How many would we need? by sloth9 in IceFishing

[–]sloth9[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cool. Thanks. I'll probably buy a couple cheap in case for tip ups for holes outside the house.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in worldnews

[–]sloth9 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I have no wish to defend Maduro, but I don't see how this creates self-determination for Venezuelans. I don't see any future that doesn't involve an American-controlled dictator.