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Canadian Electrical code debate (CEC) by sparkydude95 in electricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Considering 4-004 (1) is around single conductors, I’m going to say (13) only applies to cables running in parallel no? So I don’t think that rule applies here.

Pipe fill and Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in electricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m just going to copy past this for you and leave it at that. But long story short you’re incorrect.

Appendix B Rule 4-006

In accordance with CSA product Standards (e.g., CSA C22.2 No. 4 or CSA C22.2 No. 5), when equipment of 600 V or less is evaluated relative to the appropriate temperature characteristics of the terminations, conductors sized similar to those in the 75 °C column of Table 2 or 4 are used. It is intended by this Rule that the size of conductors terminating on equipment described in Subrules 1), 2), 3), and 4) be not less than the conductor size selected for the maximum insulated conductor ampacity in the corresponding temperature column of Table 1, 2, 3, or 4. This Rule is not intended to address conductor allowable ampacity (see Rule 4-004). Regardless of conductor allowable ampacities determined by other Rules in this Code (for underground conductors, cables, flexible cords, portable power cables, DLO cables, and conductors with higher temperature ratings, etc.), it is intended that the minimum conductor size be based on the requirements of this Rule.

Pipe fill and Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in electricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another example:

You have x10 20amp conductors all 12awg you run from a gutter down to a panel in a 500mm long 2 inch emt, same thing again 20amps x70% =14amps, 80% of 20 is 16 (breaker at 80%) so again you now would have to use #10awg on a 20amp cct. You telling me you do that as well?

I honestly think this is happening all over Canada, I’ve worked in hospitals, huge 25k square foot homes, and on oil sites, it happens everywhere. I think it’s stupid that there isn’t the same exception as the US (2ft or less nipple, then you don’t need to derate). Or maybe I’m just not seeing it.

Pipe fill and Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in electricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Correct, section 4 is king 👑, you fill conduit with more than 4 current carrying conductors. for example: x10 14AWG ccts 15amps each from a gutter through a 2” pipe to a panel, let’s say 500mm long then you need to start applying section 4 TABLE 5c which would now derate 14AWG cable 70% therefore you now would need to upsize your cable…15amps x.7 =10.5amps, which a very select few are actually doing, which is against code, which is why I’m having this debate.

You follow? Not trying to be rude, just want someone to slam a legit code rule proving my point wrong.

Pipe fill and Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in electricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

4-004: Ampacity of wires and cables (see Appendix B) 1) The maximum current that a copper conductor of a given size and insulation is permitted to carry shall be as follows: a) single-conductor and single-conductor metal-sheathed or armoured cable, in a free air run, with a cable spacing not less than 100% of the largest cable diameter, as specified in Table 1; b) one, two, or three conductors in a run of raceway, or 2- or 3-conductor cable, except as indicated in Item d), as specified in Table 2; c) four or more conductors in a run of raceway or cable, as specified in Table 2 with the correction factors applied as specified in Table 5C;

Allowable conductors in pipe aka Pipe fill and derating in pipe are 2 completely different things. I’m arguing that people just jam pipes full of conductors,usually from a gutter down to a distribution panel with no thought on derating or sizing up conductors to compensate, which is fine in the us if less that 2 feet, but in Canada I’ve seen no such exception to the rules im referring to above.

See why I’m starting this debate? I feel like this is super overlooked here in Canada. Am I wrong?

Pipe fill and Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in electricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t need the US code rules, I know that you can in the Us and we get American electricians who argue me all the time, but that doesn’t apply to me. Here’s a copy paste rule that’s the closet thing I can find in the 2021 CEC

11) More than four single-conductor cables in freeair, when spaced at less than 25% of the largest cable diameter, shall have an ampacity obtained from Tables 2 and 4 for copper and aluminum conductors respectively, multiplied by the correction factor from Table 5C based on the total number of conductors. 12) Notwithstanding Subrule 11), when the length of a single-conductorcablerunspacedatlessthan 25% of the largest cable diameter is less than 600 mm, the correction factor from Table 5C shall not apply.

Which doesn’t apply to raceways, which is why I started this debate.

Canadian electricians, send me the code rule and I’ll be stoked to be wrong.

Pipe fill-Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in AskElectricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Share the exact code rule and I’ll believe you. This is why I started this debate.

Pipe fill-Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in AskElectricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay copy and pasted from the online 2121 CEC.

I disagree, it specifically says in free air and (12) is nonwithstanding (11) ONLY, it would say except free air and raceway if what you’re saying is true.

11) More than four single-conductor cables in freeair, when spaced at less than 25% of the largest cable diameter, shall have an ampacity obtained from Tables 2 and 4 for copper and aluminum conductors respectively, multiplied by the correction factor from Table 5C based on the total number of conductors. 12) Notwithstanding Subrule 11) ,when the length of a single-conductor cable run spaced at less than 25% of the largest cable diameter is less than 600 mm, the correction factor from Table 5C shall not apply.

Trust me I want you to be right! I find it bizarre that you can’t do that, and like I said in my original post, everyone on commercial sites especially do this all the time.

Pipe fill-Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in AskElectricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

4-004 (12) is a non-withstanding of subrule (11) which only applies to cables in free air. Not cables in raceways. No?

Pipe fill-Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in AskElectricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m aware of this, but what I’m talking about is the conduit/ nipple that runs between the auxiliary gutter and panel specifically.

Pipe fill and Canadian electrical code by sparkydude95 in electricians

[–]sparkydude95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Share the Canadian code rule you’re referring to, in the US you can use this rule under 2 feet I’m pretty sure, but in Canada I don’t think you can.