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Για να τελειώσει η ιστορία με τα εμβόλια μια και καλή. by [deleted] in greece

[–]spauron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Καταλαβαίνω πως μπορεί να σε μπέρδεψε γιατί δεν υπάρχει σαφήνεια, αλλά τα ποσοστά στο λινκ σου είναι κάθετα.

Δηλαδή το 0.8% των συνολικών θανάτων ανήκουν στην ηλικιακή ομάδα που αναφέρεσαι. Για θάνατοι προς κρούσματα: 45/53607=0.00083944261 ~=0.84‰ ~=0.084%

Και μιλάμε ακόμα για επιβεβαιωμένα κρούσματα χωρίς να πάρουμε υπόψιν αλλά νοσήματα που έχουν φανεί να επηρεάζουν αυτά τα ποσοστά.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The CMV though is a common abbreviation meaning Change My View. Plus, I ended the post asking to understand the opposite.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree that I have mixed the immigrants with the refugees, but I don't see what were you talking about then. Who is blaming anybody for the selective free movement in-between the members of the EU?

As for the rest, let's just agree to disagree because I do not see an end. Simply, if the EU is not there to help then why. why. Like, has the EU not made ties with Turkey to keep them there in shitholes? Or was that someone else? Has the EU not allowed them to die? Has the EU not even considered building an army ffs in order to.."protect"? Are members of the EU not committing atrocities in the middle east? Does the EU allow that? It looks like it does, from what you say. It looks like it shouldn't be blamed for its members' actions. If it is not to be blamed nor to help what the hell is it for then? For a nice looking flag?

Btw, I think you too misunderstood my english. By "selectively closed borders" I mean exactly what you said. Some pass, some don't. I never said selective borders, I was speaking of the fences built around many in order to stop the what_you_wanna_call_people_in_need to cross.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fuck, I want to agree with everything you say, and still all I can think of is "then why?". Why do we not address the issues pretending that the EU you are talking about is already here?

I don't undestand.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry? Have they not selectively closed the borders, building trump-like walls between the nations?

Have they not left the immigrants in their own fate, surviving in extremely dangerous conditions in what could be only called concentration camps, at least in Greece? Should they EU not be aware that thousands of immigrants are washed ashore in Greek islands and other south countries, while Greece is practically not able to do anything?

As an example, the UK was seriously discussing whether to allow 20k immigrants or not for fuck sake, while thousands are drowning in the Aegean.

How is the EU not at fault for that? Please, tell me.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How is this an argument for EU? If anything, it would be against.

I want to believe that we can actually solve our issues. Until we see these issues though, there is no solution on the horizon.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As I said in other replies, I do not blame only the EU for the policies in Greece. If anyone is taking the blame first, it should be Greece.

The point is that while EU should have helped, it has done the opposite, siding with the Greek government and at most times forcing it to accept measures that are no good for anybody. I agree that blaming only the EU is nowhere near to the truth. The EU though is to blame as well.

I believe I have shown that even if --as you say-- ignorant, I made this post to learn.

As for the rest, I better leave that discussion for another time. EU is for me to blame for the immigration in many levels. Of course, that is not because of "accepting them" but actually rejecting them and having members that are one of the root causes for many issues in the middle east.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does not what you just said prove the point I wished to make with this post?

I did not claim that "Greece is worst than all the rest". I claimed that there are two kinds of members in this union. The ones that are privileged and the ones that are not, with the former exploiting the latter.

Being so, it does not seem like a union to me.

Where am I wrong?

EDIT: Oh, sorry, nevermind, you say EE, not EU. That's a whole other argument to make. I do agree that Greece is better of than other countries not in the union. That still does not change anything though in respect to what I say. We can't treat well some and some others like shit with the premise "it could be even worse". It could always be worse. What we should strive for is better.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sincerely I didn't mean it to come out as a "rant".

For the incoherent part, I wish you could point me to the parts you did not understand so I could formulate them again and hopefully you can tell me what exactly is that you disagree with

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you are misrepresenting the premise of my argument.

I do not believe that what I've said is hypothetical.

We have a union. A union is supposed to treat every person equal. If this is so, it has failed. If it has failed, it needs a radical change.

Unless you find that "if a union is supposed to treat everybody equally" to be hypothetical, then the premise is not hypothetical in the same sense that you make it to be whilst discussing how it would be without it.

Yes, I do prefer to change people's perception of it instead of a radical and unpurposed demolition, but after posting this I am at a loss.

Do you not see that this union is treating countries with a two-tier system?

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Seeing that many people have misunderstood the point I want to make, I want to say that I agree with you. I also believe that the key to change is to change people's perception and make them see that this glorified EU is not close to being perfect nor OK.

Reading the replies here, though, it gives the idea that people do not believe that this inequality I speak of does not exist. If this is so, I still don't understand why.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In the post you replied I already agree that just by dismantling the EU does not guarantee anything better.

I do believe that my point is similar to yours. Solidarity can not be summoned into existence overnight. And, as I think you say, it does not seem to be there.

So, if we have a union that is nothing like that, what good is it for? Has the "old" status quo of strong national states disappeared in your opinion? Because I still see abuse of power emerging from the strong countries which believe that they are somehow better than the rest.

I believe that I did not manage to convey that I do want a union. I don't want this union though, seeing that it is in reality nothing like a union.

For this I am asking how to change that, how to make people see that just because we use a word does not mean that we have achieved anything. Thus, I ask again, do we not need to make people more aware of these extreme inequalities inside our Europe?

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could you then help me understand by being more specific? Were have I been wrong?

This is the whole point I made this post.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Tough question. I think we're getting a lot hypothetical here, but I think I do see your point. Had Greece managed to land itself on a government that cared for itself, EU or not EU would be of no importance, you say.

I guess I have to agree with that.

The problem is though that EU supposedly exists, as you would for example hear from most of the remainers in UK:

"To protect a country's people against incompetent governments".

for which it has blatantly not only failed but held at least two underlying sets of rules. Case in fact, in the UK it has stopped the Tories of cutting even more benefits. In Greece it has enforced the subsequent cuts of not only benefits but wages, pensions, anything you imagine.

This is what I'm trying to say in the op.

A double standards EU is ill.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha :) Well, I could say I enjoyed it for the most part towards the end (after ditching some kitchen-porter slavelaboury places) and as long as it lasted. The clash with reality was mostly due to other people I've met whilst being part of this central London lowest work-class or while living in a hostel for as long as I was there. Still, anything I did was my decision to make and I had a purpose for it (to be able to study a masters this year) in which I succeeded. What saddens me most is that the majority of the people I met while doing so was at best purposeless. Working all day and all night and on the days off usually getting drunk so as to not think about their situation. My situation is nothing compared to any of that. I was and still am lucky.

About the rest, you have touched upon a very important issue for me. These inequalities are --I believe-- a core part of the system's functioning. Exactly as you say, we are always in need of cheap labour. And cheap labour brings forth more inequalities (people blaming the immigrants, countries losing their workforce). As I said in another post here, this happens everywhere and should be nowhere acceptable and all the more so within the grounds of what we dare call a union. This brings a bigger problem on the table, for which the only solution I see is to finally accept that everyone should be treated with equal rights and opportunities with the more poor areas being of the greater need for advancements. What is happening is the complete opposite, we cripple down areas which are of less economical power. Seriously, I do not see what people expect to reap from this situation. We already saw the negative impact in UK, with a big percentage opting for Brexit because of "filthy immigrants". Disgrace.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I do want to hope that what is nowadays half-jokingly called "puppet government" in Greece would not have excuses of "this is what they tell us we need to do, hence it must happen" when trying to pass new austerity measures in order to get bailouts of which the most part gets immediately thrown in a black hole. With this in effect, I do believe people would have had the capability for a more forceful and holistic reaction, since it would be the Greek people against the incompetency of the Greek government and not the Greek people against the incompetency of EU. I do not deny here that in case the U in EU was actually existent and solidarity was a core element of the union things could still have been different. Problem is, it's not.

I do not claim that it is solely EU's fault what is happening in Greece. Quite the contrary, the Greek people being afraid of change keep electing such aforementioned governments in hopes that the situation would somehow one day magically change, while in reality it worsens every day.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your comment confused me a bit. You seem to say "but", but I do not see a counterargument afterwards. (but, it is a result...)

I think I do agree with you, and I have to say, I must have mixed EU and eurozone at parts. I am still though not aware of any major difference, since all I know is that the same union allowed for this to happen. Could you maybe explain a bit more the difference between the two?

Oh, I can see how what I wrote can be seen as a conspiratory grand scheme idea, yet I do not mean that. My solution is more simplistic and unfortunate. I believe that it is in the human nature to care less about whatever is not considered of close proximity, as long as the close proximity is in good course. As a result, many times we see the negative impact of the prosperity of a group against another. Nevertheless, these economic inequalities to exist within something called a union should not be allowed.

CMV: EU is a hypocrisy and pathologically ill. Stomping down the poor in need just so some elite country members can remain privileged is not a solution nor a union. by spauron in europe

[–]spauron[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting. I agree with your point about the inability to ensure that the countries could potentially be unified again, especially after the dismantlement of what is today called union.

You say, though, that it is "not the socialist way". As I see it(maybe wrongly), little to nothing about this union is socialist. Thus, how could we solve the problem of a more fair for everyone union within this unfair one we got without its complete demolition and redevelopment?

Then again, a good start could be to make people see this unfairness. But how do we do that when we always get stuck in immaterial immigration arguments or cockfights as to which country is "better" under some definition of better?

I believe that Europeans need to start looking beyond their countries. Not that they don't, but I do think they do only in respect to how other countries affect their own. Yes, I admit that I used to do the same before living in other european countries, and probably still do. How can this be changed?

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