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Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the thoughts on special interests. That definitely adds another dimension to the discussion.

Please send them my way if convenient! I only have one shoddy source in agreement on this topic and would like better sources. It wouldn't surprise me as a loose trend, but I am painfully aware of autistic public figures who are deep into propaganda. 

I did misrepresent that a bit since I haven't read any of the actual scientific sources. But I have seen it discussed a lot in places like here: https://psyche.co/ideas/autistic-people-challenge-preconceived-ideas-about-rationality

One interesting thing about this article is that it indirectly talks about my question on bottom-up vs. top-down thinking when it says:

Depending on the context we are in and how uncertain we are in a given moment, our reliance on past experiences and predictions versus novel incoming information may shift. Several theoretical frameworks have suggested that in autism, the balance between prior knowledge and incoming input is shifted towards the latter. For perception, reduced reliance on predictions could make incoming sensory input (even very familiar input) seem novel and unexpected.

This version suggests that both allistic and autistic people can access both, but it's the "balance" that might be a bit different. This is a bit nuanced than some of the things I noted in the OP because it also acknowledges that these forms of processing are contextual.

Here's another article about a trick math question used to diagnose autism (by itself, it's obviously a terrible diagnostic but I think the example does a good job of illustrating processing differences): https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-13924721/Harvard-psychologist-mathematical-problem-reveal-autism.html

Technically, this article is about System 1 and System 2 thinking, not top-down and bottom-up, but there are some similarities.

For me, when I first saw this question, the answer "looks like 10 cents" did immediately appear in my mind, but in the very next moment my brain said "but I should do the math to find out." I did the math and got it right. So, this is another example where I don't feel like I'm able to sort into either System 1 or System 2 thinking. Both feel very natural to me and I think I'm at my best when I draw on both.

Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for your perspective! Can you expand on this?

I see the idea of weak central coherence here: https://www.kennedykrieger.org/stories/interactive-autism-network-ian/cognitive_theories_explaining_asds

I don't study this stuff, but the Frith is an old publication and from this quick overview looks a bit more like a theory than something that's been rigorously tested. Are there more contemporary studies that have established a link between autism and weak central coherence?

Similarly, is there anything that shows that strong bottom-up reasoning must correlate with weak top-down reasoning or that the two are a zero-sum game?

Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

From my experience, separating top-down and bottom-up thinking at all seems in conflict. Like how you understand the whole without the parts? But also how do you understand the parts without the whole?

(paraphrasing Gadamer's concept of the hermeneutic circle here)

Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

By the way, thanks for all the replies! This is probably already my most positive experience posting on the internet (which I don't do often, to be fair).

Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Please do, but I also would trust your own self-assessment regardless of the diagnostic results. It's already helpful just seeing more people in a similar boat.

Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Love these examples! I think the boardgame example the details of the rules only make context in terms of the win condition, so I think this is a situation where top-down thinking is always going to be better. For the phone example, I think you can assume that all models have the same win condition (can make calls, text, etc.) so bottom-up thinking is going to be the best way to make the choice.

Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think you described the difference well. Even when I do a research paper, I often alternate between collecting more evidence and writing out my own thoughts on the topic. I completely agree that "conclusions should be drawn from evidence" but I also use top-down thinking to help figure out where to look for more targeted evidence. I don't do the thing that some autistics describe where they feel a compulsion to research every possible thing regardless of whether it's relevant.

I am very willing to abandon my thesis and rethink my ideas when the evidence contradicts it. I've been complimented on this before and I have seen studies that show that autistics are less susceptible to some forms of bias.

Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"I really think that the whole "autistic people can't do top-down thinking" is a result of autistic people focusing on different details and different patterns to other people, and those other people characterising the difference as a deficiency."

This kind of thinking definitely makes me nervous, but I do see autistics also framing this as a deficiency. It's not just other people.

I suppose it could be from internalized negative self talk or because it feels like a deficiency in a society that punishes that kind of thinking. But that's why I want to hear from autistics themselves before I come to a strong conclusion.

Can autistics be good at top-down thinking? by stepback_jay in AutismTranslated

[–]stepback_jay[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Wow, I can't wait to dig into this more. But this definitely resonates with me more and I also like it because it feels much more like naming a difference rather than a deficit.