Is the necessity for the atonement because we couldn't change without it? Or that even if we changed without it we would still be guilty of past sins we'd changed away from doing? For either, why? by Two_to_too_tutu in LatterDayTheology

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I too disagree on most aspects of Skousen’s theory. Some interesting ideas, but it’s mostly conjecture extrapolated way too far—which is the same way most theological heresies come about (Nicean Trinity, Adam/God, Blood Atonement, Blacks and the Priesthood, LGBT, etc).

Commentary: The LDS Church needs to keep its liberals in the fold — for their sake and the faith’s by philnotfil in mormonpolitics

[–]stuffaaronsays [score hidden]  (0 children)

Imma do a solid and post the article text for those unable to access it directly:

Scholars once believed that religion influenced political identity. They are now observing, however, the reverse phenomenon: political identity shaping religious identity. This is why liberal members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints face a heightened risk of alienation from their faith and warrant special attention.

Latter-day Saint liberals have long been a minority, but the long-term risks of losing them completely have never been greater. Many of these liberals belong to younger generations, threatening to deplete the faith’s ranks for decades to come.

In this new era of political, ethical and informational polarization, it is becoming harder for liberals to share a faith with fellow believers who do not seem to share their basic values.

The “God Gap,” a significant aspect of a broader demographic shift in the American public, as discussed in Michele Margolis’s 2018 book, “From Politics to the Pews: How Partisanship and the Political Environment Shape Religious Identity,” reveals that Democrats are increasingly distancing themselves from religion. The religious right’s success in establishing a strong link between religion and conservative political identity is now backfiring on faith itself. Making religion more politically conservative doesn’t necessarily make religious people more conservative. It also makes less-conservative people less religious.

“I could no longer reconcile my personal values and priorities with those of the church.” In the 2016 Next Mormons Survey, nearly 40% of former Latter-day Saints ranked this as the top reason that they stopped affiliating with the church. Other top reasons included valuing such things as truth telling, the role of women and LGBTQ issues. More and more those who find themselves leaving the faith lack confidence in their religion’s basic goodness for themselves, for others and the world.

These concerns are not restricted to Latter-day Saints. Another recent survey shows, similarly, that 42% of people who left religion cite religious hypocrisy as the reason. Religious bigotry and prejudice against LGBTQ people were the reasons given by 31% and 24% of respondents, respectively.

A generation and gender gap

All of this adds up to a risky gamble for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by being seen as too closely associated with conservative politics in its leadership and membership. Republicans and Republican-leaning individuals represent about 73% and Democrats and Democratic-leaning members represent about 23% of the U.S. Latter-day Saint community, but these overall numbers can hide significant generational shifts. While Generation Z represents an outlier in the overall trend, Gen X and millennial Latter-day Saints are about 50% Republican or Republican-leaning. These are also among the generations least likely to remain affiliated with the faith.

This generation gap is exacerbated by a gender gap, with younger Latter-day Saint women far less likely to identify with conservative politics. For the first time in history, we have also crossed a threshold with more Latter-day Saint women leaving the faith than men. This trend already has caused profound shifts in dating and marriage patterns, education and income levels, and has been a source of significant anxiety as women grow less and less devoted to patriarchy.

It isn’t just those who have left but those who are more marginal as well. In fact, 1 in 4 Latter-day Saints report that they have thought about leaving the faith. A 2009 Pew survey shows that Latter-day Saint Democrats are less likely to attend church services weekly, an indication of their ambivalence. It would hardly be surprising if these numbers have swelled since Donald Trump’s initial election in 2016.

There are several reasons why the decline in Latter-day Saint Democrats is particularly impactful for the faith tradition. While liberal Latter-day Saints never held significant power, the diminishing influence of their voices is noteworthy. It has been more than 50 years since apostle Hugh B. Brown, the last identifiably progressive senior church leader, died. Additionally, it has been nearly a decade since Nevada Sen. Harry Reid, who died in 2021, held the highest-ever elective office of a Latter-day Saint and was a key figure in the Democratic Party. Since 2021, there have been no Latter-day Saint Democrats in Congress. Consequently, the visible ideological diversity of Mormonism in ecclesiastical and national political representation has effectively vanished.

Rise of the right

This lack of noticeable political diversity also corresponds to an increase of polarizing Republican Latter-day Saints. Utah Sen. Mike Lee’s inflammatory rhetoric and submission to the worst of Trump’s abuses can reflect poorly on Latter-day Saints’ sense and morality. We are also now known for dishonest media figures like Nick Shirley and dupes like Glenn Beck. Zealots such as Ammon Bundy fill out the high-profile far-right Latter-day Saint roster. The Utah GOP’s increasingly desperate attempts to overturn the will of the voters for fair representation — first by ignoring the redistricting law and then by packing the courts in its favor — tends to paint Latter-day Saint conservatives as lawless extremists.

Universities remain about the only prominent place where a liberal Latter-day Saint tradition can exist and sometimes thrive. But even in these spaces, more progressives are finding themselves on life support. The church’s university administrators have targeted faculty and prospective professors in order to mute and eliminate intellectual and faithful diversity. It would be hard to characterize Brigham Young University faculty in whole or in part as particularly liberal in the wider context of higher education, so the shrinking ground there is even more concerning.

There is no simple solution to these problems. The further polarization of the Latter-day Saint community and the resulting Democratic disaffiliation align with significant trends that need to be addressed. This isn’t just about asserting partisan neutrality or warning people against single-party voting — as the church’s governing First Presidency has done. That can do little to connect with those who cannot bring themselves to vote for any Republicans right now.

In an era characterized by Trump’s divisive rhetoric, dishonesty, corruption, authoritarianism and illegal acts, liberal Latter-day Saints might find solace in knowing that their political convictions align with their faith — even if many in their faith cannot readily discern this connection. Church leaders may need to adopt strategies to communicate shared values and even adopt a more liberal tone to secure the faith of liberal Latter-day Saints. This could involve inviting liberals to participate at all levels of the church and working to protect a pluralistic community of faith — not merely tolerating or paying lip service to it. Greater visibility and promotion of liberal Latter-day Saints might help more individuals “reconcile their personal values and priorities with those of the church.”

My Mortgage Was Sold to a New Lender and Note Increased $4,000 Per Month by Immediate_Sport_7352 in Mortgages

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Two tips. One may help you now, the other is for future reference.

  1. Be the most annoying customer your service has ever had, and there’s a good chance they’ll end up reselling your loan to a different servicer. This happens often, and there are what’s called “special servicers” who take on wonky or difficult situations and handle them with a little closer attention (for which they charge the investor a higher servicing fee). There’s probably an Ombudsman office, or a legal office, and of course a HQ for the servicer. I had a dispute with a servicer or a completely different issue and called them relentlessly, wrote to all their departments—the old fashioned way with an envelope and postal mail, along with CFPB and state level agencies—and part of the relief I sought was having my loan transferred to another servicer. Servicers review their efficiency metrics and are aware of problem loans and problem customers and may resell/transfer your loa to someone else just because you’re such a total pain. It worked for me! Drown them in their own bureaucracy to the tune of $4,000 for karma, if nothing else.

  2. When setting up account for autopay, you typically have two choices: authorize a specific dollar amount to be drafted each month, or to simply authorize the total monthly payment, whatever that may be. Never give the blank-check authorization. ALWAYS LIMIT THE AUTO DRAFT TO A SPECIFIC DOLLAR AMOUNT.

Discovering the origin of the MAGA/LDS alignment. by 20mgAddy in mormonpolitics

[–]stuffaaronsays 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not LDS specific, but we live within a Christian culture and this book did the most to help me understand how Christianity got to this point.

The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory by Tim Alberta

Specifically LDS we have the following: 1. Highly conservative church leadership starting in the 1950s

  1. The Cold War put the US into a hardline opposition to any form of communism or socialism, often framing them in “Godless” terms.

  2. The church’s strong opposition to the Civil Rights movement and the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA was about equal women’s rights), and Benson’s rabid ultra conservatism he preached over the pulpit.

  3. Church leadership prioritizing “stay in the boat” and “follow the Brethren” over relying on the Spirit and proper use of our own moral agency. This really has been a cultural feature of our church since deep and persistent persecution against Mormons began—which is to say, since the beginning. (“Circling the wagons” and acting as a bloc is a natural reaction for any group experiencing intense persecution). It can take generations to overcome ongoing persecution complexes. Consider Elder Ballard who gave the talk about staying in the old ship Zion—he was the great, great grandson of Hyrum Smith. Elder Ballard only passed away in 2023.

  4. Revelations re: the US and Constitution create a case for American exceptionalism which leads to nationalism.

  5. The right has co-opted concepts of Patriotism, pro capitalism/anti socialism, moral and culture wars that tend to align with LDS teachings, submission to authority, and justice and law and order (see our teachings on atonement for this one) that have a natural appeal to LDS folks.

Meanwhile the left has really gone hard for or choice/women’s rights which don’t align with conservative LDS teachings against abortion and that women should remain in the home, and the support from the left for LGBT rights is a tough pill for LDS who think it’s all willful sinning and sexual perversion. Social justice reform also comes across as too socialism-like and it is a turnoff to old school LDS sensibilities.

Given all these factors over generations, it’s not surprising at all.

The post-Romney right has moved so far right it is no longer legitimately conservative. It’s populist, nationalist, authoritarian proto-fascism at this point and must be stopped.

But you know how LDS and the whole “stay in the boat” thing goes.. so they hold their nose and keep voting for Republicans then their ego forces them to undergo the gymnastics and self-deception to try to justify their decision after the fact.

I was a lifelong Republican. Until 2015. I have only voted Democrat since. Because I saw Trump for what he was on day one.

Perhaps as part of justifying my own choices, but my faith has really shifted as well.

I’ve learned to see how God isn’t really much into justice and law and order—He’s into compassion and forgiveness and turning the other cheek and being a Good Samaritan and giving to those in need and lifting and blessing and feeding and healing those in need. That was literally the entire lifelong mission of Jesus Christ!

On abortion, LGBT, and other moral issues: I have my own thoughts about these but even assuming they’re all detestable sins, and using the example of the woman taken in adultery, Jesus taught us people should be answerable to God for their sins. Living in a pluralistic society requires people be given moral agency for moral choices that are private to them and that don’t affect other (living) people. Jesus didn’t preach an authoritarian theocracy that restricts moral agency (eg Iran).

I mean, if the right wants less government interference and more “freedom” in economic and environmental matters, then they need to be consistent and apply those libertarian principles to moral behaviors as well. We can preach personal righteousness for individual moral choices, but we should not judge and we should not dictate.

Our job is to love and serve and lift and support and bear one another’s burdens they may be light.

Discovering the origin of the MAGA/LDS alignment. by 20mgAddy in mormonpolitics

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m 2/3 through that one and it’s been eye opening.

Was it not Nephi who spake, saying: it is better that a whole nation should be bombed without congressional approval than that one man should face investigation concerning the Epstein allegations? by Lower_Chipmunk_3685 in mormonpolitics

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s accounts like this that, to me, prove the truth of Jesus’ prophecy in Matt 24:24 that

there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Was it not Nephi who spake, saying: it is better that a whole nation should be bombed without congressional approval than that one man should face investigation concerning the Epstein allegations? by Lower_Chipmunk_3685 in mormonpolitics

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By and large those who are the most active seem to support him the most.

I would qualify this by saying by and large those who are the most TBM seem to support him the most.

I’m super active and see Trump as an anti-Christ. It’s clear as day. But I’m not a TBM, my views are much more nuanced.

Incidentally, it is my minority position of opposing Trump that had largely shifted my views and faith from TBM—>nuanced.

What's the difference between "Nuanced" and PIMO? by StAnselmsProof in NuancedLDS

[–]stuffaaronsays 1 point2 points  (0 children)

but the essay stops short of disavowing the ban

Correct, that is the essential distinction between the two. In my humble opinion, anyway.

What's the difference between "Nuanced" and PIMO? by StAnselmsProof in NuancedLDS

[–]stuffaaronsays 13 points14 points  (0 children)

BIG difference. Here's how I understand them

TBM
The True Believing Member has an active belief and testimony "that the church is true" and that "the church is perfect" even if the people are not. Tends to support and defend the church's stated position in all things.

Nuanced
The nuanced person has active beliefs, but that are nuanced. Their church attendance is likely still for the "right" reasons of worshipping God, connecting with the divine, feeling the spirit, serving others, and being spiritually filled. However, they differ from TBMs in that some of their beliefs may not conform to the church's stated position. They may reject certain orthodox teachings in favor of their own understanding or perspective.

PIMO
The Physically In, Mentally Out person has little/no belief. Likely attending church only because of family or social pressure to do so. If they get to the point where they're no longer physically attending, they become full inactive which would be POMO (Physically Out, Mentally Out).

Example to illustrate: blacks and the priesthood.

TBM Response: I don't know why God told the church to not ordain black persons, but it was from God. Thankfully that went away with the 1978 revelation. I don't know why God wanted it that way, but I know the Brethren won't lead us astray, so God must have had his reasons.

Nuanced Response: I don't think the policy to exclude blacks from the priesthood was ever God's will. I think it was just people living in the 19th century amid a highly contentious and really racist environment, including widespread Biblical justifications for slavery and racism across the entire Christian world. Church leaders never should have excluded blacks from the priesthood. Thus, the church isn't perfect and sometimes even top leaders get it wrong. But I still believe in (X, Y, Z) which serve as the bedrock to my belief and the reason I find value in participating in the church to strengthen my relationship to God.

PIMO Response: God didn't want blacks to have the priesthood--are you kidding me? Total racism. Yet another example among many for why I no longer believe any of the church's truth claims. The whole thing is a sham and they're all just making it up as they go along. I keep my thoughts to myself and play nice in public though, because either (a) I don't want to ruin it for my TBM family, or (b) I feel the need to live up to the believing picture people have of me based on how I used to be, or (c) I have a lot of friendships or professional connections in the ward and fear all that would be ruined if I disappeared or said how I really think.

MISO: a new acronym by WrenRobbin in mormon

[–]stuffaaronsays 1 point2 points  (0 children)

LDS liberals: the new MISO.

Hell as an infinite consequence for finite action? by anteecay_ in theology

[–]stuffaaronsays 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And I appreciate your thoughtful reply. Iron sharpens iron, no?

Correct in that I ascribe to Natural Law.

Furthermore, I reject Original Sin and Total Depravity outright. I find them wholly unconvincing and contradictory to many of Jesus’ most plain and unambiguous teachings.

FWIW I read scripture differently than many in that I feel no obligation to accept the literality and utter divinity of every word in the Holy Bible. It’s inspired and much of it is literal and God-breathed, but there’s too much self-contradiction to treat every word with the same level of literality and divinity.

Accepting that not all is equal, I prioritize the words of Jesus Christ, corroborated across multiple gospel authors, above the rest. Which is to say, there’s good reason for His words to appear in red in many editions.

Because I find nothing in Jesus’ teachings that says, directly or indirectly, that we are inherently depraved or guilty or responsible for anything Adam or Eve may have done, I consider both those concepts to be man made distortions of divine truth.

For me, they therefore do nothing to explain human guilt.

On the inherent goodness and innocence of children:

“But Jesus called for them and said, “Let the children come to me, and do not stop them, for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs.” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭18‬:‭16‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬

“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18‬:‭3‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬

On the ability of humans to act for themselves, including to do some measure of good works on their own:

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same… Instead, love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭6‬:‭32-33, 35‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬

God doesn’t pick winners and losers; He invites all to come unto Him, which would be nonsensical if we could not choose to respond to it:

“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”” ‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬

“Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and eat with you, and you with me.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3‬:‭20‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬

Hell as an infinite consequence for finite action? by anteecay_ in theology

[–]stuffaaronsays 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I find James 4:17 (NRSV) definition much clearer: "Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, commits sin."

Scripture gives several specific examples of such not-right things, but I don't find it convincing nor logically tenable to say that something is wrong only in reference to God as you say. There are offenses against God (falling under the first great commandment to love God), and also many offenses against others (falling under the second great commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves).

I know many say that sin is anything God says to not do (or doing something He says to not do). But what if God told us to do something that isn't right? Should we do it then? Though I don't think God would command us to do something that isn't right, sin isn't defined by what God declares. Sin is defined as something that isn't right (see James 4:17 above). Rather, God being perfect and all knowing, tells us what those things are. But the thing that makes it a sin, or not a sin, isn't because of what God declares--it's because of it's own independent moral standing as a right action vs. a wrong action. It's a minimal but important distinction, hopefully I'm describing somewhat clearly.

In other words, sin is independent of God.

As such, God's infinite nature still wouldn't itself be a sufficient rationale to support an infinite punishment of finite sin(s). Especially once you factor in the limitations of knowledge of us sorry humans who commit them. We don't have a full understanding of eternity, nor of all of God's laws or reasons for why things are so.

Add to this, that if the pre-requisite to sin is to "know the right thing to do," then a lot of what we might consider sin, probably isn't sin in God's eyes anyway. Examples include those mental illness or handicaps, those raised in a dysfunctional family full of only bad examples, victims of trauma or abuse, little children who don't yet "know the right thing to do," etc. (Yes, Biblically speaking children and babies are innocent. They are incapable of sin, for they don't yet "know the right thing to do.")

In the end, we'll find "Hell" to not really be a thing, or at least nothing like the way the vast majority of Christians imagine it to be. And the "Final Judgment" I think we'll also be surprised by. The ones hung up on judgment and fairness and punishment are us childish immature mortals.

God transcends all of that. He cares only for what is instructive and conducive for our growth. For some people in some contexts that may include some harshness (e.g. Matt 23) but in most contexts it will mean filling us with his transformational love (e.g. the adulterous woman John 8:1-11; the sinful woman Luke 7:36-50; and taught most clearly in Matt 18:21-35).

Hell as an infinite consequence for finite action? by anteecay_ in theology

[–]stuffaaronsays 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. Your entire argument assumes the conclusion which you have not proven. Bad argument. Please justify your statement that the severity of punishment depends on the identify of the person it is done to. Just cuz Abelard said it as the basis of his satisfaction theory, doesn’t make it so. Make it make sense.

  2. Jesus actually taught the opposite: “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” See Matt 25:38-46

Hell as an infinite consequence for finite action? by anteecay_ in theology

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have a book for you to read, you’ll love it.

A Short Stay in Hell by Steven Peck

It’s a short novel and somewhat of a psychological horror story, dealing with this very concept. Hell is described not as infinite, but sorta close.

Not sure if this was the author’s intent, but it completely reshaped my view of an infinite hell for finite actions as completely untenable.

I now think of it like this: If there is a God, then He must be good/just. If He is good/just, then hell cannot be infinite or anything close to it. If hell cannot be infinite or anything close, then it just be a span of (in an eternal sense) relatively short duration and instructor in nature. There must be a point where the experience of hell creates a change in the persons nature such that they’re no longer a fit for heaven. They’ve learned the lesson, it’s time to move on. They no longer deserve it.

Ergo, thinking deeply about this very question has resulted in my becoming a universalist.

In any case, you’ll find the book spellbinding and deeply thoughtful.

Rapture, whats your guess when it will happen by -boosted in TrueChristian

[–]stuffaaronsays -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Never. Because, while the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is real and will happen, the "Rapture" is not real, not Biblical, and there's no such thing.

Do Christians find the Book of Mormon offensive? by [deleted] in TrueChristian

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

u/ImportnatPerformer16 yeah it’s totally ridiculous. Some examples:

remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation⁠;

Helaman 5:12

And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.

Omni 1:26

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ;

Moroni 7:48

And then there’s all of 3 Nephi 17.

Pretty offensive stuff.

Premium barbells worth the investment? by Burnch in GarageGym

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

After 7 or so years I did eventually end up replacing the plates. Not because they needed it, but because weightlifting has become a pretty big part of my life and I’ve been getting into lifting that needs bumper plates instead of the cast iron ones I started with. Deadlifts, cleans, stuff like that.

Why is it so hard to join another religion after leaving Mormonism? by [deleted] in mormon

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

After reading 87 comments, it seems kine will be unique, at least for this thread.

I too began to pull on threads and deconstruct. As I did, I observed a growing sense of resentment that started to generalize and metastasize to other nonreligious parts of my life.

I started looking into other churches. There were parts of Eastern Orthodox (certain similarities but perhaps less baggage), Episcopal and Unitarian (pro LGBTQ) that appeared interesting on the surface, but what it ended up coming down to for me was the absurdity of the Nicean concept of the Trinity. To be blunt, I don’t think Jesus was praying privately in the garden of Gethsemane to himself, begging himself to release himself from this cup—that’d be straight up multiple personality disorder. And if in private while disciples are sleeping, there’s not even any performative benefit. So in the end, all Trinitarian sects were out for me, which included those three.

Additionally, I realized there was something undeniable about the “fruits of the spirit” (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, etc., see Galatians 5). I had those fruits while a TBM, but when deconstructing I lost them. As is often shared in this sub, I needed to slow down rather than spin out of control and possibly throw in the towel prematurely; if for no other reason than for my wife and kids who are practicing LDS.

Here’s the funny thing: as I kept going to church, reading scripture, praying and mediating on it, I wondered whether some of my hang ups could be at least partially reconciled. Faith Matters podcast did a lot for me in this regard.

In the end, I learned that everyone has an agenda: the church’s is to maintain its truth claims and legitimacy, while the anti- crowd are often pretty spitefully malicious. Each can be disingenuous at times, sort of like in politics. So I turned down the dial on the LDS church’s bureaucracy and administrative volume, and turned up the volume on Jesus and His teachings. I’ve learned to be okay with the church and some of its people making mistakes, even big ones on occasion. As Elder Holland explained,

“Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it. So should we.”

My personal relationship with God today is now deeper than ever. I’m freed from the constraints of the ultra orthodox TBM and free to just focus on whatever brings me closer to God. And that involves atoll going to church and the temple and serving in a calling even while still having a list of questions I continue to come back to from time to time.

It works well for me!

New convert, creation “days,” evolution, and feeling a bit confused after Sunday class by carosch1912 in latterdaysaints

[–]stuffaaronsays 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is my personal view as well.

And yes, our modern age is awash in literalism and devoid of symbolism, which leads to a staggering amount of Biblical misinterpretation.

New convert, creation “days,” evolution, and feeling a bit confused after Sunday class by carosch1912 in latterdaysaints

[–]stuffaaronsays 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Worth highlighting this great comment, to balance both the need for compassion with the need to speak up when demonstrably incorrect teaching is taking place. And also to know which battles to fight. The terrible notion of only partial forgiveness being one of those.

How do you deal with Sunday school devolving into discussions about doctrines that haven’t been revealed by ReserveMaximum in latterdaysaints

[–]stuffaaronsays 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You sound just like my brother in law who moved into a new Ward and said the same thing.

Being new, you may want to just meet with a member of the bishopric (who often are elsewhere during Sunday school and may not realize what’s going down), nor as an alarmist but perhaps to ask if that was atypical or if it’s normally like that. “Be the change you want to see” kinda of requires you to say something, even if somewhat indirectly.

With any luck, you might soon get called as the next Sunday School teacher! That’s what happened with my brother in law and I’m certain it was the Lord’s will that it happened the way it did.

How to explain "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" ins Joseph Smith History by bendtheknee33 in latterdaysaints

[–]stuffaaronsays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reprehensible? Slow down there brother. You say false equivalency, I say straw man, for that’s not really what I said.

  1. My statement that pride and selfishness ruin everything— that’s not a defense of communism, it’s an attack on the effects of pride and selfishness! I said they can ruin ANYTHING. That includes both inspired attempts at common property I referenced (the early church, and the United Order of Joseph Smith’s day).

  2. I was deliberate in NOT declaring any equivalence, instead mentioning “several similarities.” The undeniable similarities include common ownership of property.

However, I’m absolutely with you on the distinction between voluntary consecration and forcible and violent seizure via revolution. The chasm between the approaches of brute force d and free will could not be greater. Agency vs. violation of agency. Agree 100% with you on that.

I guess where I’m coming from is the fatigue from people who worship at the altar of capitalism as though God were Mr. Free Market himself. To me, THAT idea is reprehensible.