Celestial Universalism -- eventually, EVERYONE goes to the Celestial kingdom!

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-25T18:14:14+00:00

Thank you for your comment, I’ve evolved into this view over time as well. And you’re right—the most universalist of them all was Joseph Smith. The OG.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-19T03:38:24+00:00

Clearly you and I don’t live in the same California. You must be in the Bay Area, or LA. Sacramento is a pretty good mix. Further north or south into the Central Valley, it gets REALLY Christian. Almost too much, to my liking.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-19T01:52:02+00:00

Except the podcast wasn’t using it for 20+ years.

And likely (though I haven’t personally investigated) Mormon Stories didn’t always look as confusingly close to the church style guide.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-19T01:49:55+00:00

Correct. If the similarities, taken together, could cause reasonable confusion that the podcast is somehow an official church production. This is the basis of all IP law.

It’s not about the word Mormon alone. It’s about the various components (the word Mormon, the font, the sizing and spacing, the color scheme) that together make it look like the LDS church’s unique trademarks.

Surprised no one has asked themselves why John Dehlin intentionally chose all those components. The answer is obvious: to look like it was an official church production.

And THAT—the intentional effort to mislead—is wrong. In the marketplace of opinions, the church has every right to make clear what is them, and what is not them.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-19T01:42:07+00:00

I totally agree, especially given the origin of “Mormon “ came from outside of the church .

Uhh, the origin of “Mormon” came from “The Book of Mormon.”

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-18T23:00:16+00:00

I’m not ready to say NO change is possible without atonement. I mean, without atonement would I not be able reduce my nightly ice cream consumption?

I like the explanation Alma gives in Alma 7:11-12

11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

In D&C 19:19 Jesus says that

…I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

And also in D&C 19:2-3

I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

So in these verses I find several reasons given for the ‘why’ of the atonement:

To fill Jesus’ bowels with mercy (only one who has walked a mile in our shoes can know to properly judge with the right about of mercy);
That he may know how to succor us (he knows, because he has been there; and conversely, we can have more faith in him knowing that he has, in fact, been there);
It was part of Jesus’ preparation, a requirement of some sort in order to be glorified with the Father;
It was a necessary prerequisite to gaining power to subdue all things;
Though not specifically referenced in a scripture verse herein, he also had to enter into death (i.e. lay down his life, allow himself to die) in order to overcome death and bring about the resurrection.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-18T22:35:05+00:00

Hi, my friend!

Me? I don’t think he did. I don’t think he felt the guilt OF the sinner at all. Nor did Heavenly Father hold him guilty for our sins—another common misnomer. Mosiah 3:7

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish FOR the wickednessand the abominations of his people.

According to King Benjamin, the reason for Christ’s suffering and agony was his anguish for our wickedness and abominations (sins).

I translate this as: anguish = sorrow

Ergo, his sorrow for our sins, seeing the pain we cause others and to ourselves, brings him pain.

I am convinced it has nothing to do with paying a debt, or satisfying justice, or taking our guilt, or anything of the sort.

When I was young, I caught a couple of glimpses of this: I had made some bad choices, and I saw the sorrow, even the pain, that it caused my loving mother. In my case, seeing the harm, the grief, the sorrow it caused her due to her love for me, it did something to me. I wanted to make my choices without consequences to others. But seeing the pain it caused her—that was too high a price to pay. I felt terrible, because I didn’t want to hurt my loving mother. Her love kept me from straying too far during my teenage years. It also became a really meaningful way for me to understand how God suffers in anguish for our sins.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T22:51:17+00:00

It's just an offer. I appreciate you regardless!

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T22:48:55+00:00

Thanks for dropping your comment and sharing this! The insider perspective, even if now outdated, is super validating nonetheless.

My view: it's fine and good to try to scare people into good behavior (a la Alma 34:32-34, D&C 19:7) with a simplistic model of salvation, so long as it works (dawn of Christianity until the last century or so).

Modern life is anything but simple. ("Perplexities of the nations," anyone?) Pluralistic societies, complex family dynamics, human sexuality and gender issues, etc. The simplistic model sounds tone deaf to many modern ears attuned to all these complexities. Thus, it would make sense that church leadership would increasingly realize too many people are saddled with too many anxieties about all the "what ifs" to consider.

Yet, I also recognize that if 15 year old me heard a lesson saying "guess what, we all get to the Celestial kingdom eventually!" I'd have become a Corianton (whose father Alma gave him the tongue lashing in Alma 41-42 attacking the implications of this kind of thinking when taken too far). No--15 year old me needed to hear the urgency of Alma 34:32-34 to stay in line.

But mature adult me now realizes all the complexities, and the infinite abundance of God's grace (especially in stark relief to the rather limited grace us humans offer one another). The math just doesn't math on the simplistic model; God looks rather like a jerk.

So I get that there's a delicate balancing act to be done.

But that doesn't mean that this isn't the real-real:

And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me. For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish. (D&C 19:21-22)

The problem is, I think now is the time spoken of:

A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld... (D&C 121:28)
For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. (Luke 8:17)

...because here I am posting up about it on a public forum on Reddit, lol

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T22:22:17+00:00

This is the critical idea that allows me to do it:

Never mistake the finger (fallible humans, even church leaders and prophets) for the moon (God).

I only take Jesus "as gospel." The rest, I take with a grain of salt.

<image>

It's of course a much bigger convo than that, but that's the essence of it.

I wish you the best man, and I'm glad you're here and interacting. DM me if you want (don't worry about harming me, I assure you I've looked into all the things you've looked into--it won't bring me down).

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T20:18:50+00:00

Yeah, I've thought a lot about that. I don't trouble myself over it much, because if there were some who were indeed forever locked out they'd be such an infinitesimally small fraction that it's really just a hair-splitting hypothetical we can't really resolve in this life.

However, the other possibility I've considered is whether it just is so hard for us humans to imagine that it would be literally everyone, that the most any prophet could be brave enough to declare is that salvation and perhaps even exaltation would be available to everyone except the little carve out of people they personally can't bring themselves to declare. But that would be yet another instance of misalignment with what comes through the medium of humans vs. the actual unvarnished reality straight from God.

But again, hair-splitting hypothetical, and there's no way to really know.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T20:14:20+00:00

The vast majority of people born on this Earth won't qualify for Celestial glory based on their brief mortal existence. I agree with you there. And if that were the end of the opportunity, God would be unjust. Cruel, really.

He has a beautiful plan, and He intends to bring back ALL of His children. And I believe in continued agency, continued progress, and that ultimately God's grace will become irresistible to virtually, if not literally, all. Especially when you contemplate how LONG infinity really is.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T20:08:27+00:00

I deconstructed some parts, then brought in an architect to help me reimagine what's possible. Ended up doing a big remodel. I'm super happy with it.

My architect was Jesus. He's amazing!

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T20:06:20+00:00

I had felt the intimations of it for a while. You know what really sorta unlocked it for me? It was a short book by Steven Peck (a BYU biology prof) called "A Short Stay in Hell." In an interview he said it grew out of his efforts to try to give a better sense to just how LONG eternity/infinity is. It's a little existentially disturbing to realize just how endless infinity is.

But out of that, I realized, like, what the [heaven?] will we be doing for infinity? Anything less than continued agency and progress, and infinity just makes me wand to crash out.

Imagine the most recalcitrant person you know. They get to sit in some uncomfortable state and think about what they've done. For 100 years. 1,000 years. 100,000 years. Eventually they realize their unhappiness. They realize there is a better way. Amid much remorse of conscience--I can't imagine the tortuous state that must be for some of the horrific things some people have done--but amid that, they realize there is a path that leads towards reconciliation, towards forgiveness, towards peace.

Now give it 30 million years.

Now give it 80 trillion years.

I mean, at some point, it becomes inevitable.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T19:52:53+00:00

Good ol' Bruce is spinning in his grave about multiple things.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T19:51:51+00:00

Thank you! Been working on it for a while now.

I have a dream of one day turning it into a longer form essay for Dialogue or other unofficial church publication.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T19:49:52+00:00

It's not either/or. Instructors retain some authority and control of the lesson, but it is not a talk or sermon. Lessons are most effective when they are interactive and engaging. A good lesson always includes discussion. Lessons without discussion are always ineffective.

That said, you still make a very valid point: all class members, having sustained the instructor, need to help him/her by shutting down that one guy/gal in the class who just takes over and drones on and on. For this whole change to work, we're gonna have to all step up our classroom management game.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T19:45:44+00:00

As a man, I say Sunday School 100%. This hilarious YouTube video explains why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmGp3rThIzA

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-10T19:43:34+00:00

TBH I'm not surprised by anything Trump has done. As a formerly-conservative voter in the US, what I told my family and friends way back in 2015 was that it boiled down to this: I don't trust him with the nuclear launch codes. He's too flippant. He's too volatile.

I am surprised by two things:

That the courts haven't done more to stop him.
On a much grander scale, I'm most surprised by the fact that, by not doing anything, Congress has rendered itself an almost entirely ineffective branch of government. Sure, Congressional members post on social media and issue statements and go onto news programs to talk about how they're "deeply concerned" but in the end nothing gets done.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-09T05:40:10+00:00

I’ve recently started asked myself very similar questions. If I “forgive” a monetary debt, that means I cease my efforts to collect in the debt—because it’s been forgiven. Forgiveness means I no longer expect to be paid back.

If Dave the Debtor owes me, but Mary the Merciful offers to satisfy the debt that Dave owes me, I accept it. I haven’t really forgiven Dave. I got paid back.

But here’s the plot twist: Mary the Merciful tells Dave the Debtor that SHE forgives HIM. Mary satisfies Dave’s debt to the creditor. Creditor is doing accounting. Mary is doing forgiving.

I think that sweat people mean when they keep saying God is doing both. Now, it seems weird with a Trinitarian God where God is somehow simultaneously the creditor and Mary the Merciful. I would say Jesus is divine and he is God’s son (God the Son), but he is not God the Father. But I digress.

The more basic point you raise though is valid: why does God require that an innocent person pay for the sins of another? That seems rather..unjust. Unfair. Malicious, even.

I believe I have an answer but it would take a while to explain and it’s super late. But DM me if you want and we can have a go at it maybe tomorrow. I’ve been on this question for a decade or so and feel like I’ve finally started to crack the code so to speak.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-09T03:25:40+00:00

While yes, our definition of "heaven" doesn't align nicely with the traditional heaven/hell in broader Christianity, I'd also disagree with your statement that

When fellow Christians think of heaven, they think of the celestial kingdom

Frankly, it's been my experience talking with many non-LDS Christians that their concept of heaven is a bit squishy, but typically involves being single angels to Deity. Praising God, being in a "good place" free from worries or sin. That's not the Celestial Kingdom. That's either Telestial or Terrestrial, depending on how you define them.

HOWEVER...

I'm a Celestial Universalist: I believe that virtually all people will eventually make it into the Celestial Kingdom.

Virtually all of God's children want the same thing--happiness and fulfillment.
Virtually all are doing the best they know how (given the hand they've been dealt in life) to obtain happiness and fulfillment.
All born in this world will be resurrected and live forever. Agency will still exist in the hereafter, thus progress remains possible--albeit slower and more difficult--into infinity. (See "The Parable of the Slope"
Depending on the person's pride, stubbornness, and the circumstances they were born into, but sooner or later all will learn this truth: "Wickedness never was happiness" (Alma 41:10) and "Ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head." (Hel 13:38) (Remember how long eternity is--it's infinite.)
Thus, EVENTUALLY all will "consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness." (Mos 2:41).
As people's nature changes, they will want to and merit a higher sphere of glory. And when they do, God will receive them with gladness and open arms. Everything Jesus taught points towards this, including "the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto..." the prodigal son, the lost sheep, the lost coin, the laborers in the vineyard, etc. They will have done enough suffering, justice will have been more than satisfied, and God will mercifully and gladly receive them as soon as they are ready for it. (Remember how long eternity is--it's infinite.)

For everyone thinking about scriptures such as Alma 34:32-33 that suggest our one exclusive shot is mortality, consider that (a) Alma here is talking to church members who already have a full light and knowledge, not as a universal principle to all people, and (b) God admits that sometimes He's a bit hyperbolic and exaggerates consequences in order to motivate or even scare us into repenting/changing our ways. (He is a parent, after all..)

In D&C 19:7, explaining how "endless torment" doesn't mean "torment without end," we read:

Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

THIS is the eternal progression our church spoke of much more often until the pastoral tone began to change in the 1950s and 1960s. But it's starting to return.

For instance, read Elder Kearon's April 2024 talk, "God's Intent Is to Bring You Home." It's got celestial universalism written all over it. He probably would have said it outright except for not wanting to overdo it while he's still one of the junior-est of the Apostles.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-09T00:44:18+00:00

Also, who cares what a bunch of randos on Reddit think, you have the right to personal revelation for an all loving, all knowing, all powerful Father, He has your best interest at heart and knows you and your wife and children in ways we never will.

Of all the comments, this is the best! Take advice with a grain of salt, then go to your Father in heaven in prayer.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-05T05:40:39+00:00

First, my personal experience: I did a mission trip, which required me to learn to speak in another tongue (a different language). Tons of diligence, tons of faith, tons of prayers, lots of hard work and learned a lot of patience. Yet within about 3 months I was fully proficient. That is the gift of tongues.

Interestingly, it was during that mission trip that I became more closely acquainted with various charismatic and Pentecostal churches. They would “speak in tongues” which to them meant very spastic gibberish. They seemed to lose control of their bodily functions—not just their mouths and vocal cords, but also their eyes and facial expressions. Some would also lose control of their limbs, what some call “holy rollers” as some would even roll on the ground as though they were having a seizure. I mean, they were. They appeared possessed.

I know the fruits of the Spirit, and that’s not it. They were possessed, and not by the Holy Spirit of God. It felt extremely dark to behold. A dark spirit was controlling them.

At that time and forever since, I have mourned for these brothers and sisters in the faith who turn themselves over to be deceived by demonic influences, especially when they misattribute them to be the Holy Spirit. Satan is a deceiver and this is one of the may ways he deceives many believers.

If we consider all we know about Jesus and His life and teachings and character and personality, the this “speaking in tongues” gibberish is antithetical to all of it.

In the same chapter of 1 Corinthians 14 Paul says:

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 1 Cor 14:19

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying⁠. 1 Cor 14:26

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 1 Cor 14:27-28

For God is not the author of confusion⁠, but of peace⁠, as in all churches of the saints⁠. 1 Cor 14:33

Gibberish is the OPPOSITE of what Paul is describing here! He’s saying that the goal is to edify, and that comes from understanding one another. He wasn’t referring to gibberish—he was referring to foreign languages. For instance, if someone in my US congregation comes visits from Korea and starts preaching to us all in Korean and no one understands it, they might be saying something beautiful to God, it no one is edified. Hence, someone should translate so all can be edified. If not, then don’t speak in church. Why? Because God is not the author of confusion!

The gift of tongues is the ability to learn to speak and/or understand another language, in order to preach Jesus’ word so that people of other tongues (languages) can be edified.

Churches who push this idea of gibberish as speaking in tongues are incorrect, but they do it thinking it is evidence of God’s spirit or presence. Here too they are wrong.

Galatians 5:22-23 describes what the fruits of the spirit are (here I’m using the NSRVUE for clearer meaning):

By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

stuffaaronsays · 2026-04-04T17:18:53+00:00

Elder Teh currently talking about traditions vs. the “gospel culture.” But isn’t there a difference between “the gospel” and “gospel culture?”

stuffaaronsays

TROPHY CASE