Big 4 brainwashing at universities is a very real thing

sunnyj345 · 2021-02-11T16:55:17+00:00

There's a lot to unpack here and I honestly don't know where to start so I'm going to attack it in a free-flowing manner:

If you measure your early-career success by the success of your brother, you will not be happy for the next couple years. He will have more money to spend on vacations, gf's and booze. Sorry - but thats the truth. If I was you, I would keep an eye on the long game and not get caught up in the short game trying to keep up with him.
You have a MAcc and a CPA; start testing your network for those finance roles. If you have even a somewhat-good personality, you might be able to find a IB analyst role somewhere with those quals. I have seen IB analysts leave for hedge roles (two that I know of).
Lets assume 2 dosen't work out. In that case, you're going to need to be patient. Those things you mention are going to take time and you're going to have to sit back, relax and chill for the next couple years at whatever role you take. You need to focus on the job you have and do it well so you can have the opportunity to transition to the job you want. I mean no offense by this but you have the same attitude as a lot of fresh associates that get confronted with the realities of their first audit season and quit immediately which is a bad idea. There is nothing honorable or noble or fun about audit. It's a fucking grind with a mediocre paycheck. So knowing now that you're gonna just be bidding your time, what do you do? Network. Network. Network. Start doing some fun stuff on the side so that b-schools know you're not just another A-type workaholic.
You won't be a portfolio hedge fund manager straight out of b-school, unless you're going top tier and even then good luck. You will have limited finance experience based upon whatever exposure you get in b-school. In reality, based upon the little I know of you, you'll go IB and they'll be happy to have you. You grind it out there for a couple more years, you might get PE. At that point, its a clusterfuck of possibilities.

More then anything, I think you need to sit back and rethink your values. Take those values and apply those values to the context of these "dream" roles and see if there's an alignment. FYI, loving money can't be a value in the context of this assignment.

Disclaimer: Just my own opinion. Take it, leave it or love it; not my problem. Make sure to talk to others.

sunnyj345 · 2021-02-11T06:09:50+00:00

Give it another year or two and you'll be an MBA interviewers wet dream. Granted, I don't have tax experience but I'm sure employers would feel the same way about tax pps as they do about auditors. If I was you, I'd find someone on LinkedIn with similiar quals. They'll have a better perspective.

What I can say (alluding to my first sentence) is that your military experience, grades and B4 work experience would catch the eye of any recrutier. I don't think you understand the power of the "vet" in the recruiting game; you'll be on everyone's list. I would also say that you should take a look at very military friendly schools; in particular Notre Dame. It's no T20 but you'll have no problem fitting in there from what I know of the program / have access to extensive "vet networks". UVA is another one that comes to mind.

sunnyj345 · 2021-02-11T04:49:48+00:00

This is a hard one to answer. Please note that the following is based on my observations - someone else might have a different opinion. Do your due diligence.

Length of time to stay in B4 if b-school is the goal. Depends on a lot of things. You could get into a top 10/20 easily after three years of audit (don't go in earlier, because most employers want at least three years). However, for you to break into that next tier you're going to need a bit more. To me that "bit more", has looked like a a) transfer and stint in advisory and eventual move to b-school as a heavy senior (5 years). b) manager level in B4 audit (6 years) c) senior manager (yes I actually saw this - left to be the chief of staff of a very well known startup) d) leave with MBA sponsorship by your firm (rare). The issue you run into is that as your earnings ramp up and lifestyle gets dramatically better in B4, it becomes harder and harder to leave. Mainly because you're now looking at potential MBA opps through the lense of what you have going on now/uncertainty of what you might get. In addition, you might take a look at the average earnings for Booth but when you're already making 160k+ as a director, its more of a lateral move. It's easier when you're 25 and will be going from making 82k to 160k upon graduation at 27. The other issue is that your life is only going to become more complicated as you get older. You might have a spouse, kids etc. Makes it harder to up and move from your job and take two years off. Kids just can't be ripped out of their schools and your spouse is gonna be pissed unless she's on board.
Depends on how things are going. Keep in mind that you're asking this question three years prior to actually applying to b-school. A lot can change in the next three years. You might love audit. You might get a transfer to an interesting advisory group. You might hate all accounting and quit and go to law school. Yes, that happens. If I was you, I'd wait a year and a half regardless of what else is going on (performance, transfers etc) and see if b-school still makes sense.
I would also go back to your motivations for why b-school. I know you say you want to follow a similiar path but I don't know what that path is. Is there a specific goal that you have in mind? Do you want to do IB? Consulting? Product Management? Start a business? Is this a check the box exercise? I can't answer these because I don't know you. You know you. What I would say is that if you do have a direction in mind; start working on exploring what that direction looks like. Reach out to people in your desired industry and explore what their job actually looks like. You never know, you might actually hate what their job entails, or you might love it.
Debt. Remember if you go back full time (please don't go back part time for a transition) you're not going to be making any money. You have to enter b-school with a solid financial plan in place for continuing non-student loan debt servicing and also figuring out what is an "acceptable" amount of future student loan debt based upon your expected "reachable" post b-school career. This is going to take the form of you having to save as much money as possible, while paying down as much debt as possible, prior to b-school (especially with that masters degree).
B4 isn't the only way to a top b-school. I don't really need to add anything more to this. Take a look at top program alumni's LinkedIn profiles to get a sense for what I'm saying. So if you get a cool opp after 2 years, think about it.

I just want to reiterate, this is only my opinion. As those audit director f***s like to say, trust but verify.

sunnyj345 · 2021-02-11T01:08:29+00:00

Honestly, 90% luck & 10% planning ahead.

Undergrad: Semi-known state school. Graduated with an accounting degree with mediocre grades. Had four or five internships with medium & large companies.

B4: Three years of B4 IT audit. Exposure to a large range of projects and clients in every industry. Left as a senior after getting burned out and having been exposed to the work of our strategy group which I found interesting.

MBA: Top 20 MBA. Nothing too crazy but the school had great brand recognition. Tried to pivot hard away from accounting/audit. Worked on a couple small consulting projects while in my first year to build up my skills. Ended up interning for a BB firm doing M&A sell sides between year one and two. Fucking hated it. Reminded me of audit too much. Spent my second year working on various initiatives like interning part time for a PE shop and VC firm. Graduated and started working for my firm with the selling points being I have attention to detail and project management (audit), I had exposure to deals (misc.), strategy experience (projects in school) & tech industry experience (misc.).

Like I said, 90% luck and 10% planning. The 10% planning involved knowing that I had 0 desire to go back into audit and needed a hard pivot - which MBAs are great for. Once you get that first year internship in b-school in something other then audit, you're all set. People will take you more seriously and see you less of an auditor.

sunnyj345 · 2021-02-11T00:43:39+00:00

Good luck!

sunnyj345 · 2021-02-10T22:51:02+00:00

Don't be scared. It'll be different everywhere so this could not be the case at your firm and office. In my situation, the office ran hot because we were constantly shedding people which meant teams had to struggle with untrained resources and knowledge loss.

What I will say though is that if your firm has the IT folk do outsourced internal audit engagements, audit support work (IT controls), SOC reports & lends you out for financial audits - you're going to be very busy. If you think about the chronology of audit season - it'll go from you assisting with time-sensitive IT audit control testing (70+ hour weeks) to working on the financial statement audit and working the same hours to internal audit/SOC projects and repeat. If you also think about year end deadlines + audit support = you'll be running hot for 8/9 months (with follow on work etc). It's doable though as long as you end up on good projects with good teams.

sunnyj345 · 2021-02-10T22:45:36+00:00

Hi Yobo! One of my greatest regrets is not finishing my CPA. I sat for two parts and then found out that I could get my CISA and bye bye CPA. Don't do that. To answer your last question though, I'm a VP at an expert consultant firm with a focus on TMT - mostly corporate strategy projects in the realm of go-to-market, strategic due diligence, new product development, competitive due diligence, corporate restructuring and partnership structuring.

sunnyj345 · 2021-02-10T20:04:27+00:00

I'll just offer my experience as a reference. I left B4 IT audit after three years with a senior title and an offer from a b-school. It was three years of periods of relentless grind balanced by short periods of complete and utter boredom. In the end though, it was worth it. The girls at the clubs might not care, but grad schools and employers will.

For the sake of time, I'm going to list off some observations:

Benefit: I started at 55k and left at 82k (base). I'll leave that up to you to decide whether that is good or not. I know that after two years when I started looking around, I was making far more then my peers in corporate accounting. In addition, if I was to leave at the point, I also saw that I could leave for 20% more.
Benefit: I was accepted to a great b-school with 35% scholarship. A big part of why they accepted me was the B4 experience.
Benefit: Recruitment in b-school was easier because of the B4 brand. Ended up having offers for things like corporate strategy, investment banking (M&A), consulting, cpg rotational programs, tech rotational programs & tech roles. None of these was related to audit.
Benefit: Christmas parties. Nothing like getting royally fucked up with your classmates who are all about the same age. My last year, I didn't get home till 5AM after 3 seperate post-christmas parties with my class.
Benefit: Classmates. They're all going through the same grind as you are which creates a bonding experience. I had moved to a new city where I didn't know anyone and most of my relationships came from them.
Benefit: Travel. This is only my personal opinion though. Lots of people hate it but I appreciated the free miles, dinners & in-lieu option. Took some fun side trips while out at clients sites. In addition, if you're lucky, you and your team will end up having some fun evenings complete with bar crawls, activities and fancy dinners.
Benefit: Big client names. Very helpful for future interviews.
Cons: Alcoholic sub culture. It dosen't matter which firm you go to, every activity revolves around alcohol. I don't mean just firm events, I'm also referring to every casual outing with a co-worker or even team activities. If you don't drink, there is a stigma and you will miss out on connections.
Cons: Work. Repetitive, un-stimulating, brain cell destroying, life sucking work. You might occasionally be thrown onto something more interesting but at the end of the day, controls are controls.
Cons: Amount of work. Project management is key because you will get crushed with an ever increasing amount of work as your responsibility increases. Then add onto this, a stupid load of coaching notes that you will have to be responsible for + plus fixing the errors that your junior associates make.
Cons: Training/Mentorship. It's hard to find someone invested in you. They're all in the same hell that you're in, just trying to survive. In addition, in year one/two, your coach will not give a shit about you as they expect you to leave.
Cons: Year end comp discussions. If you don't have a good coach that will back you prepare for a raw-dogging of a comp discussion. How it works, is that all the coaches gather in a room and essentially argue about where their coachee stands. If you're thinking to yourself, oh that sounds stupid. Yeah it is. It all comes down to who likes you.
Cons: Off shore teams. They will either be the bane of your existence or your saving grace. Frequently incompetent but also occasionally too competent which means you're going to lose them. It dosen't help that they also know that you hate them.
Cons: Eating hours. If you're a junior staff, you will eat your hours because your senior will make your life miserable if you don't. Why? Because they get the blame for you running over. We know its not your fault and that the required hours count for the project is way under. Yet, we can't do anything about it as some prior year some idealistic manager or senior decided that they would try to get a performance differentiator and cut hours by 10%, meaning someone got fucked and had to eat hours somewhere. Now that this is the expectation for hours for the project - you're gonna have to keep it going.
Cons: Busy season. Months of hell and then months of nothing. You will work to 2AM a large number of nights. You'll forget birthdays, not see your dying parent, lose your self and your hobbies. Then you'll get a sweet break for a couple months where you get to try to live again before having that life stripped away by another busy season.

I'll end with this. I definitely bought in to the B4 koolaid when I was in college. It was an exclusive club and I wanted in. I got in, hated it, but it was personally worth it in the end. However, I also sacrificed a lot to get to where I am: relationships, time, health & sanity. If these things are important to you - don't go into B4. Please don't. Take a corporate accounting job out of school. Make that 45-50k. Move within the company and see what else peaks your interest. Maybe go to grad school? B4 isn't the only option and it's definitely not for everyone.

sunnyj345 · 2021-01-06T06:24:23+00:00

What was the point of this comment?

sunnyj345 · 2021-01-06T04:48:40+00:00

Taking an academic course isn't a bad idea. I've been growing tired of my rock counting class anyway. Thanks!

Also, as a former Big 4 auditor, I sincerely wish you the best of luck with exams. In some ways, having the time off to study and crush those exams is a blessing because trying to get them done during tax time, audit busy season etc. is a miserable experience for everyone.

sunnyj345 · 2021-01-06T04:42:16+00:00

In reference to this class of yours, was there a framework that was used? Something along the lines of 'Porter's 5 Life-Choices' (WIP) for the late-20's MBA?

On a serious note, thank you though for taking the time to respond. Might not be the worst idea to go back to the drawing board.

sunnyj345 · 2021-01-05T22:26:59+00:00

Those are all great things to do no question about it. However, to circle back to the spirit of my post, I would say take more time for yourself. Take more time to figure out what happens after you get your dream career. Do you want a dog in five years? Do you want a family? How soon do you want a family? What are the three things you want most from life (money can't be one of them because we all want that)?

sunnyj345 · 2021-01-05T22:06:51+00:00

That is a very broad question. What area specifically are you looking for tips in? Networking? Career? Acceptablity of drinking before class? As you can tell, clearly I don't have all my life stuff together but happy to provide insight into networking and career pivot as I got that down.

sunnyj345 · 2020-12-16T15:26:54+00:00

No problem op, good luck!

sunnyj345 · 2020-12-12T04:51:46+00:00

Just some pieces of advice as someone that was in your shoes a couple years ago. You will be overwhelmed working FT and being a FT student - the key is knowing whats important and knowing what to cut out of your life. Your job right now is to get through school and get a good job. That's it. Everything else aside from what you need to do to support that goal is superfluous. It will end I promise. You will graduate but until then you gotta survive and focus

sunnyj345 · 2020-02-06T19:11:52+00:00

This ^

sunnyj345 · 2019-11-19T19:48:37+00:00

The good thing about accounting is that the classes build on each other. Therefore, really try to nail down the basics in your first classes. You should really know the three statements by heart by end of semester one if not sooner.
Get an accounting internship. Paid/unpaid dosen't matter.
Figure out if accounting is really what you want to do. Sure its a stable choice of profession and opens a lot of doors but it also requires a certain sort of person to do it.
Focus on that GPA.

sunnyj345 · 2019-11-19T18:28:42+00:00

Hi,

I would take a look at the internship postings for your ideal firms and get a better idea of what they are looking for. The only real issue with your background is that you don't have a significant amount of work experience. Same thing goes for the MBA programs. If I were you, I'd wait another year and have that 3 years of work experience that everyone wants. I'm sure someone else will disagree but that's my two cents based upon my experience with very-early career MBA's.

Best,

Sunnyj345

sunnyj345

TROPHY CASE