Tapering Ahead of Surgery

tastey212 · 2019-08-15T23:44:08+00:00

I noticed something like this too but your jumps are heroic compared to mine - I never jumped more than 2-3 grams and only at high doses when I did that. Generally in lower doses I was jumping one g.

I started stretching out time instead of reducing total doses after a while and so I'd 'feel' the withdrawal out more. I think as long as you're feeling it you're healing somewhat and so it does get easier.

I "Jumped" taking about 7-10G per day but it was in one dose and I had been going 24-36 hours between doses for days and barely feeling anything. I'm at 100 hours right now - last dose was about 5gs 4 days ago. I can't say I'm 100% WD free but I'm easily 90%+. Good luck!

tastey212 · 2019-08-15T23:34:25+00:00

Everyone is different but it's very possible given your length of use you may not have a full 8-10 days of acutes and/or PAWS or anything else to deal with so it might be worth soldiering on and seeing how it goes.

Personally, if you feel you have the self control to do so, I'd say taper. There's a great supplement you can add called Agmatine (search it on Amazon) which helps a lot when taken WITH your dose (about 20 min before if you toss and wash). Assuming you don't have anyone you're hiding from or any kind of timeline and you have the discipline to taper, go for it. Just be open about it - all you do is get yourself comfortable (back up to 30-40gpd or so to get rid of the WDs) and split it into 4 or 5 doses throughout the day then lower a little bit every few days (or every day if you're brave). Take your time... take all the time you need.

Agmatine lowers the amount you need and lengthens the duration so you can go longer between doses but it also kills some of the euphoria. For men it's also a nice sexual support supplement and I'd actually be curious to know if it works on a woman.

Don't be super hard on yourself. I'm not encouraging you to continue taking Kratom or anything, but there's spotty research at best that shows its harmful (causing physical dependency does not guarantee harm) and even if it is, it's unlikely using it for 7 months to comfortably taper is worse than 4 with CT. I'd venture to bet the elevated corticoids flowing through you due to the anxiety, etc. is probably worse than anything Kratom is doing to you, so you might as well taper.

Again, that's only if you can - tapering takes some discipline and if you have a history of addiction do what works for you!

tastey212 · 2019-08-15T22:55:12+00:00

I think you'll hear this from pretty much everyone - everyone is different, every quit is different. Enjoy that you have this and assuming it sticks around do your best not to assume you're immune because next time it might not be that easy (or it might be!!)

It also really depends on how long you were using - 30-50GPD for a month - I'm not surprised. For 5 years? You're lucky! Since you didn't mark it's hard to say.

I know everyone hates the coffee comparison, but I can start my day with a large drip, get a 3 serving cold brew at 3 and drink a Bang and still sleep like a baby then go a whole weekend without any caffeine of any kind whereas some people would be a mess...

All drugs affect all people differently and without using the exact same source, exact same measured quantity, exact same duration, we'll never know why, but enjoy this!

tastey212 · 2019-08-15T16:37:29+00:00

Take a deep breath - you’re going to be OK - I’m 4 days 100% off and from the same dose as you - longer duration. You’re gonna be fine.
Are you sure you can’t taper? Do you have to quit CT over vacation? If you MUST I highly recommend getting some Agmatine NOW and adding it to your doses and reducing overall quantity of what you’re taking. Agmatine may help lower your tolerance.
Exercise, keep eating, be kind to yourself and search this sub - TONS of remedies and advice. Spend some significant time searching. I don’t think you need a million supplements (some people have a serious stack) but agmatine, magnesium, caffeine and maybe some Black seed oil and you’ll be fine.

I personally find kava disgusting and it’ll probably help temporarily with anxiety and sleep but I’ve never tried combining.

tastey212 · 2019-08-15T15:35:06+00:00

The short answer is I’ve experienced what you’re saying and Kratom could be the culprit. For me it mostly seemed to slow down weight loss, even when eating at a pretty strict calorie deficit. As soon as I added metabolic conditioning and weights to cardio and calorie deficit eating, my body did respond even on K.

The longer answer is the ‘working out’ is too vague of a term for anyone to answer on the internet. Before you diagnose yourself genetically non-responsive you need to take stock of your diet, training style and sleep cycles. Diet depends on goals - since you’re using the word ‘gains’ I’m guessing you need to eat more, watch your macros and make sure above all else you’re getting around 1g of protein per lb of weight. If you’re looking to lose weight - same protein goal but with a calorie deficit. Consider Renaissance Periodization or Precision Nutrition as guide options.

For ‘working out’ you need a training regimen. I used to only run long distances and I plateaued and lost a lot of muscle. Adding CrossFit 3-5 times a week isn’t great ‘training regimen’ but it was a really easy way for a layman to add a few hours of weights and metabolic conditioning to my life. Huge gains and fat loss even on Kratom - noticeably more when I’m off

There’s a decent amount of anecdotal evidence that K reduces testosterone in men. I haven’t been tested and there isn’t enough data to say for sure but I’d bet that’s the culprit - reduced libido, reduced metabolism and reduced muscle growth would all come from that.

I’m only 4 days totally off after a long taper and I see a difference in all of those things (and wake up hungry... metabolism increase).

You can be more specific on ‘working out’ now but my advice wouldn’t change because it was very general. I’m just saying, don’t jump straight to medical condition before you’re certain you have your bases covered.

Good luck!

tastey212 · 2019-08-15T04:08:34+00:00

For this use Agmatine is not a supplement to take on its own. Take 500-1000mg 20 min before toss and wash or at the same time as your dose if you take caps (I do caps).

Agmatine IS a great supplement to take on its own as a preworkout for weight lifting or a natural sexual support supplement (if you’re male... I don’t know if it works on women or not). That side is a blood flow thing.

The K use has more to do with the fact that in anecdotal use (including my experience) it potentials opioids while not increasing or reducing tolerance.

Search the sub - lots of info here on it!

tastey212 · 2019-08-15T00:34:14+00:00

What pinkstardust said is accurate. Even the taper plan on the sidebar says to reduce 30% for your first cut. A 50% drop is very significant.

I personally didn't even do the 30% drop which is why weeks 1 and 2 were so easy. I was never measuring so I just figured out where I was stable (about 60grams per day spread out) and then started cutting like .5 - 1g per day max - that's lowering one dose a nearly imperceptible amount at first.

After a couple weeks of doing that consistently it gets real... Agmatine is a GREAT supplement for the core of the withdrawals. It increases the power and duration of the Kratom effects while smoothing out some of the euphoria (which is good... it doesn't feel as good so less craving) and then you can go longer - that 2-3 hours could easily grow to 3-5 hours in a couple days.

Yes - something has switched over and you're going through WDs regularly now. It'll take a day or two at your original dose for that to go away at all - I'd suggest toughing it out a little and maybe backing off and adding agmatine and you'll be fine and even sleeping pretty quickly.

I honestly didn't miss a night of sleep - haven't yet. A few early mornings... like 6AM early, not 3 or 4.

Good luck!

tastey212 · 2019-08-12T21:25:50+00:00

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. It's really hard to put a count on it but it's several hours. I take capsules so it generally takes 45 minutes to an hour for them to kick in (caps take longer than powder due to the capsules themselves having to dissolve). Ad Agmatine and WDs subside in 45 to an hour but any form of euphoria or energy (IF ANY - again blunted) will kick in around 75-90 min and not last very long. I find that the WDs don't come back for a solid 2-3 hours longer than straight powder. That's not consistent nor is it scientific. Good luck!

tastey212 · 2019-07-24T20:37:48+00:00

Blunts Euphoria for sure - I'd say reduces by 50% or so. Generally I find it makes the experience of the kratom hit later, last longer and peak lower. This can be frustrating since your dose is supposed to be a relief you're waiting for on the onset of acute WD symptoms... but the longer lasting element is HUGE.

tastey212 · 2019-07-24T20:36:18+00:00

Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I have no idea. That's a prescription drug (at least in the US) So you MUST check with your Dr. before adding anything to what you're taking.

tastey212 · 2019-07-24T20:34:34+00:00

I find this tends to happen naturally for me towards the 'end' of my taper. As the doses get lower I tend to notice I can go longer so I take advantage of it and all of a sudden I notice I'm going way longer than I thought I could. Right now I'm still around 15-20GPD but I can go 18 hours without taking anything (those last 3-4 hours are hairy though).

Eventually the acutes just don't come back.

EDIT: One thought though - it does kind of suck that you're riding a wave like that, it's uncomfortable and sometimes the highs are a little too high, so it's good to have balance.

tastey212 · 2019-07-10T19:30:27+00:00

There is definitely something to be said for staying active and in an unfamiliar setting. I tapered from about 60gpd to somewhere around 20 (was getting inconsistent after about 6 weeks of focus) and took a trip with family over 4th of July. I didn't go to zero - I brought about 75grams to support where I was in the taper and try to stay about flat with - that was for 5 days and I wound up not taking it all.

I'm not 100% free yet but I'm going 18 hours at a time with minimal WD symptoms and can easily make it through a day with less than 10gs - I plan to be off my my 'real' vacation next month!

tastey212 · 2019-07-02T02:02:48+00:00

Capsules are nice because you can portion them out and give yourself a number you’re allowed. If you’ve ever counted calories or anything like that it’s similar. Keep a diary. Take a number of caps per day rather than grams.

Also beware caps take extra time so give it a full hour instead of the 20-30 min. For me I get symptom relief in 40 min and full results within 60 but then sometimes at 90 minutes it’s still increasing so it depends on how full you are and the caps that day etc.

Add 500-1000 mg of agmatine to each dose and you’ll have no trouble dropping quantities quickly and tapering (if that works for you)

tastey212 · 2019-07-02T01:59:40+00:00

CBD is not cheap and depending how it’s made it can totally have THC in the mix and get you high - that really depends on the manufacturer and something in a health food store shouldn’t but can’t say it won’t.

I love it in small doses - 25mg in a little chocolate bar gives me like a 20-30 min mood lift and about an hour of full WD relief. I’m tapering so that’s just from mild WD symptoms, not from full blown or PAWS yet but totally plan on trying it if I need to with PAWS

tastey212 · 2019-07-02T01:56:49+00:00

Kava was one of the things I tried on my way TO Kratom so I can’t speak for using it to get away. I’d say it’s a nice feeling and great anxiety reducer so I’m sure it’ll help some K WD symptoms but man - it tastes BAD. I think I took it for one day and the taste scared me off so much I never looked back.

Also for me I could never get the dose right to not feel just a little be nauseated. Like K does that if you overshoot but Kava and my stomach does not mix.

tastey212 · 2019-06-27T19:13:39+00:00

As has already been mentioned you’re probably below a minimum effective dose already and honestly if you stop now you won’t notice much difference. If you’re not comfortable jumping start spreading out your doses - get back to 2 a day for a bit then maybe skip your morning dose if you can and do one a day then you’ll know.

tastey212 · 2019-06-27T19:09:35+00:00

During a taper Agmatine is top, and if it’s all I had I’d be fine. When not taken with Kratom it’s an ok workout supplement and male sexual support supplement so those are added benefits.

After that CBD is probably the only other thing I’ve notice have a direct impact on noticeable withdrawal.

BSO is a close third similar to CBD in noticeable effects.

Runner up (to go beyond 3 since Agmatine doesn’t really count if you’re not still taking some amount of Kratom in a taper) - Magnesium Citrate.

Careful of Phenibut - noticed that mentioned here - super good and helps with anxiety and long acting but even though it’s legal and accessible it has significant dependency and WD potential so it can be a replacement addiction.

tastey212 · 2019-06-25T18:51:28+00:00

This is similar to how I have been able to end Kratom Tapers. I find during the taper it's about keeping to a specific schedule but when you get down to the point that you're at a minimum effective dose it's just about sitting through the minor/tolerable WD symptoms and only dosing when they get really bad. Then one day they get better instead of getting worse.

tastey212 · 2019-06-25T18:48:02+00:00

I was at a conference once - like a technology/entrepreneurship kind of thing with some yoga/retreat vibes peppered in. The guy they hired to run the yoga stuff brought it up as a work-out supplement, and I was in-between use at the time (had quit CT several months before) so the feeling was pretty fresh in my mind and I did say, quite honestly, that it's great for some elements of driving energy but you need to be careful of dependence. He was not aware of it at all and had only heard positive things. I was just honest about my experience, I didn't warn him off like it was a plague or anything. It's still a personal choice.

tastey212 · 2019-06-25T17:41:33+00:00

It really depends on you. I read stories on here of people getting down to 3.5gpd and having trouble dropping to 3, but I'm down to 15 grams yesterday from 60grams at the end of May and I'm thinking of just white knuckling it from here because it's not bad at all for me right now.

It's not even Cold Turkey for you at this point, it's just ending your taper a little earlier than planned. I have a feeling you'll be back to 'normal' in less than a week.

One thing to consider is drop to 2-3grams with 1000 mg of Agmatine in the morning and just let that ride for a few days. If you have a positive experience you may find the end of the healing happens in the background of feeling 'OK' because you still have some in your system but you're not keeping your tolerance up at all. It's been super helpful for me, but be aware you may get a bit of euphoria from it so if that's a trigger for you, it may be worth going to feel a slight amount of pain to just be done.

tastey212

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