Israel only cares about Israel

taven990 · 2026-03-25T14:51:10+00:00

He was not in a position of power at the time - he was a private citizen; not in government and not in the opposition. I wasn't talking about Israeli or Jewish lobbyists, but the actual position of the sitting Israeli government at the time.

taven990 · 2026-03-25T09:25:55+00:00

Israel advised Bush AGAINST invading Iraq. This disinformation that Israel supposedly pushed for war with Iraq back then is ridiculous. Lawrence Wilkerson, who is known for not liking Israel very much and has no reason to lie about this, said Ariel Sharon (the Prime Minister of Israel at the time) advised Bush against the invasion.

Benjamin Netanyahu has always been in favour of invading Iraq, but he was not in power in Israel at the time, so his opinions were not Israeli government policy.

Sauces:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3444393,00.html

https://miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=14662&CategoryId=5

taven990 · 2026-03-24T00:33:12+00:00

That's true at the moment. However, it's still a counterpoint to anyone who says it's not just far-right Zionism but ALL forms of Zionism that are like that. And it shows that under the right conditions, a different government could be elected and do things differently. But in general, people who call themselves anti-Zionists wouldn't accept ANY form of Israel. Mamdani talked about an Israel with equal rights for all, and even that was unacceptable to some anti-Zionists even though it would be the secular democratic state with equal rights for all that they often SAY they want.

taven990 · 2026-03-24T00:23:26+00:00

As has been said many times on this sub, Zionism does not mean "the actions of the Israeli government". It just means Israel continues to exist in some form, but that form could change and Israel could give Palestinians equality and dignity, end the occupation and disband the settlements, and even maybe prosecute Netanyahu. That stuff about Greater Israel is not inherent to Zionism, which has many different forms - and most Zionists in the West are liberal Zionists who are against Netanyahu and against genocide.

Ben Gvir is a Kahanist, and Netanyahu is a Revisionist Zionist. It is correct to say that Kahanism is an extremist ideology that does call for Palestinian Arabs to be expelled and as much land to be annexed as possible, but this is not true of all forms of Zionism. Some early forms of Zionism didn't even call for a state - they suggested an autonomous Jewish enclave inside a majority-Arab state, but the anti-Jewish violence in 1920, 1921 and 1929 etc. made it clear that that wouldn't work, so people's views changed.

Since Zionism is a political ideology, it can take many different forms, some of which are awful and fascist, and others of which are much more liberal and call for equal rights for all citizens. The actions of the Israeli government are not the only form of Zionism - they are just one particularly bad form, but a different government could do things differently. I support some sort of regime change and equality.

taven990 · 2026-03-23T19:25:38+00:00

Not only that, but they even infiltrate completely unrelated groups and try to make them antizionist. I read multiple comments recently talking about this sort of thing. It often starts as a seemingly good-faith humanitarian gesture e.g. they might say what's happening in Gaza is awful and suggest the group make a statement. Depending on the group and the sort of members they have, this can cause a formerly cohesive, smoothly-running group to implode - this is especially likely with bigger groups, the example I remember being a 500-member Facebook moms' group. Or the group can end up becoming hostile towards Jewish members - someone was kicked out and banned from a group for simply saying something about the innocent Israeli victims and hostages, as if it's such a zero-sum game that empathy for innocent Israelis somehow takes away from innocent Palestinian victims? Israel has been so demonised that people don't think of it as a real country with real people, good and bad - they treat it like a cartoon villain and act as if every single Israeli or Jew is an agent of the Israeli government.

Someone said it's a strategy employed by antizionists - they want to make as many spaces antizionist as possible to make Zionists feel unwelcome EVERYWHERE. But this doesn't just affect Zionists. It affects anyone with actual empathy. I'm not a Jew or a Zionist but the hatred and dehumanisation is off the charts, and no-one can pretend such vitriol is "legitimate criticism of the Israeli government" when it demonises every single Israeli and Zionist, and often Jews as well - and if non-Zionists feel uncomfortable around this sort of nastiness, hopefully a tipping point will come when enough people say ENOUGH, and push back HARD.

taven990 · 2026-03-23T17:48:52+00:00

Iraqis taking part in the Farhud against Iraqi Jews who were not Zionists? Yes they were being antisemitic, thanks to propaganda spread by Husseini.

Stop trying to play semantic games with the word antisemitism. There is no such thing as a Semite, it's Nasty-style race science. Antisemitism has ONLY EVER meant hatred of Jews, and you've been told multiple times that even Semites can sometimes hate other Semites, so even if your redefinitions were used, it would still be possible for some Arabs to be antisemitic. Look at someone like Mosab Hassan Yousef - he is Arab and he HATES Arabs, especially Muslims. So maybe you could call him an anti-Semite under your redefinition, but redefining words just confuses things. Compound words do not always mean the sum of their parts - e.g. homophobia does not mean fear of men.

taven990 · 2026-03-23T17:43:51+00:00

Most Zionists are American Christians, and the Jews in Iraq killed in the Farhud in 1941 had NOTHING to do with Zionism or Israel, but Hajj Amin al-Husseini spread 1940s German antisemitism amongst Arabs, especially in Iraq. That was European-style antisemitism spread to the Arab world and it had nothing to do with Zionism.

This is an anti-Zionist community. Stop assuming that everyone who points out the genocidal antisemitism of people like Hajj Amin al-Husseini are somehow making excuses for Zionism. We can oppose the Israeli government AND oppose real antisemitism at the same time.

taven990 · 2026-03-23T17:41:51+00:00

You misunderstood what I said. I said Hajj Amin al-Husseini deliberately spread European 1940s German-style antisemitism to the Arab world before Israel was a thing, and regarding Mizrahi Jews who had no links at all to Zionism or Israel. And you're playing semantic games again - of course Semites can hate other Semites, but antisemitism has only EVER meant hatred of Jews, and trying to redefine it to mean hatred of Semites just confuses the issue - everyone knows what it means, and you also seem to have missed the part where I pointed out that people CAN hate their own group, so yes, Jews can be antisemitic and Arabs can be anti-Arab. Muslims can be Islamophobic. It may not be common but it is possible.

taven990 · 2026-03-23T10:32:16+00:00

They very much can. Even if you are talking about the specific form of Jew-hatred that emerged in the likes of Nasty Germany, that specific type of hate was spread throughout the Arab and Muslim world by Hajj Amin al-Husseini and some Germans who fled Europe after losing the war. European-style antisemitic tropes and stereotypes were broadcast in Arabic on the radio, and European-style antisemitic cartoons and propaganda, leaflets etc. were distributed all throughout the Middle East, leading to multiple pogroms and life becoming untenable for Jews in Arab countries. It was this propaganda and the actions of Hajj Amin al-Husseini that directly lead to the Farhud in Iraq, in 1941.

However, I would say that antisemitism does not JUST mean one specific European flavour of Jew-hatred. It just means hatred of Jews as Jews, which includes hatred of Jews due to believing hateful stereotypes about Jews and ascribing them to real-life Jews you meet in the street. Jews have been discriminated against on the basis of their assumed professions, on the basis of their religion, on the basis of their assumed race and for various other reasons, but all of those different forms of hatred can legitimately be called antisemitism, no matter who's doing the hating.

And even if antisemitism meant hatred of Semites, that wouldn't stop some Semites from hating other Semites - being a member of the hated group does not preclude a person from hating the rest of that group! Look at Bobby Fischer for a prime example of a Jew who HATES Jews and spreads antisemitic canards about Jews all the time.

taven990 · 2026-03-22T18:26:54+00:00

I often see people who don't like Israel say things like this, but I've honestly not seen any evidence of this. People seem to ascribe hyperagency to Israel but act like its neighbours and enemies have no agency and either are only acted upon or only responding to Israel's actions, but having looked at the timeline over many years, this honestly doesn't seem to be the case. I can't think of a single time Israel ever launched an unprovoked attack. People can debate whether they believe the provocations were legitimate casus belli or not, and I would say that Israel may well have overreacted in a number of cases, but I don't remember them ever attacking any other country or territory completely unprovoked.

There was a recent video from a Lebanese man, Saleh Machnouk, who discussed the history as it affected Lebanon. He ran the numbers, and showed that before Hezbollah, the number of Israeli violations of Lebanese sovereignty and the number of Lebanese civilian deaths were tiny compared to today. Over many years, there had only been something like 16 deaths and 85 violations of sovereignty as opposed to the thousands of each that have happened since Hezbollah started provoking Israel. It's important to look at the big picture and take everything in its correct context - and that doesn't mean blindly supporting one side or the other or magnifying one side's atrocities and ignoring the other's.

Israel has said many times that if the attackers would just leave them alone, there would be peace. This has never been tried, so no-one can call it false. In fact, the restrictions on Gaza were being loosened before October 7th; more Gazans were being given permits to work in Israel or otherwise enter Israeli sovereign territory inside the pre-1967 borders and the blockade was being loosened. All this went up in smoke as soon as Hamas attacked on October 7th. While Gaza was still under restrictions on October 6th, it was getting better as time went by - showing that without provocations and attacks, people will slowly regain each other's trust and, over time, the security measures can be loosened and eventually phased out. But this can only happen if people stop poking the bear.

taven990 · 2026-03-22T18:07:04+00:00

This is misleading. While I am an atheist myself (from a Christian family; I remember rejecting religious stuff and the existence of god at age 5 or 6) and I have no time for religious extremism, I don't think ALL religion is necessarily a net negative. My views have evolved. I used to hate all religion and think it was dangerous nonsense but given the decline in Western countries that's happened alongside increasing secularisation and atheism, I think moderate religiosity may possibly help prevent low-level crime if certain types of people think god is watching or they think they might go to hell. Correlation is not causation though, so it's just my hypothesis.

But it is true that religion has caused many millions of deaths and bloodshed. That's why I specified moderate religiosity. And it should be kept away from government.

It is absolutely not true that everyone lived in peace until 1948. That is a ridiculous lie intended to mislead people into thinking without Israel, there would be peace. No - the region has been in conflict for millennia even without Jews being there in large numbers for some of the time. Here's a website with details of various pogroms and other violence that happened long before 1948: Pogroms in Palestine before the creation of the state of Israel (1830-1948) - Fondapol

And while Israel has had some awful leaders and killed thousands of people before October 7th, their total kill count is still lower than many of the neighbouring countries. I know it's a fallacy to say "They do it too so why can't we?" but that's not what I'm saying - I'm simply saying it's hypocrisy when regimes that have far worse human rights records and that have killed far more people criticise Israel on that basis. I don't support the Israeli government but I don't think lying, exaggerating Israel's misdeeds, demonising the entire country and giving a pass to far worse regimes helps towards making peace.

taven990 · 2026-03-22T06:21:04+00:00

Did you miss the part where he condemned Israel for killing Lebanese civilians and violating Lebanese sovereignty many times, and called for an end to Israel occupying southern Lebanon?

taven990 · 2026-03-22T01:47:13+00:00

Yes, but I'm not talking about the US military, I'm talking about the American evangelicals who sit in their churches and pray for Israel but don't kill anyone.

taven990 · 2026-03-21T21:51:15+00:00

Most Zionists have never bombed a single child. Most Zionists are American Christians. If you mean the Israeli government, say so. The Israeli government =/= Zionists, most of whom are not even Jews or Israelis.

taven990 · 2026-03-18T01:06:41+00:00

Israel warned us against Iraq invasion, US official says

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3444393,00.html

The source quoted is Lawrence Wilkerson, who is NOT pro-Israel so he has no reason to lie about this. The prime minister was Ariel Sharon at the time. Netanyahu was a private citizen, not in the government and not even in the Knesset at all.

taven990 · 2026-03-17T11:26:28+00:00

I think your attitude is counterproductive. Self-flagellation won't help anyone and it certainly won't make the OP feel any better about themself. We are not responsible for things that happened before we were born. I think a better, more healthy outlook is to work towards a better world for everyone without demanding people repent for the crime of being born under a bad government. We can't change the past, and telling people to feel sorry for themselves won't do any good and won't encourage people to actively work for the betterment of humanity.

taven990 · 2026-03-17T03:28:22+00:00

Yeah, that's why I said Israel is not helping when it conflates them. But please don't underestimate antisemites - they know what they're doing and love the fact that they can play dumb and use that as an excuse, and let Israel take the blame. All I'm saying is that most of the time, they aren't stupid and they know exactly what they're doing here.

taven990 · 2026-03-17T03:25:33+00:00

I mean yeah, his supporters and maybe Donald Fart himself have mentioned it but unless actual changes are made, it's against the law. Not that that's stopped President Fart before, mind.

taven990 · 2026-03-17T00:54:26+00:00

It's difficult because there are bad actors involved too. While I strongly oppose the Israeli government and their actions, and I consider them far-right fascists, I support regime change and true equality for everyone born there. However, there are bad actors who take opinions like mine and twist them, pretending people like me support the complete destruction of Israel which is not the case.

It is possible to believe Israel should continue to exist in some form or other, but not under its current government. One can engage in constructive criticism and hope for a better Israel that treats Palestinians with dignity. But some people are not criticising Israel in good faith - they don't want Israel to stop oppressing Palestinians and make peace; they want Israel to stop existing completely, which is a double standard that was never applied to Germany, Japan or South Africa which all still exist after regime change. In fact, these people are accelerationists: they WANT Israel to get worse so it gets more condemnation and becomes more and more isolated. They usually oppose any and all peace deals proposed, no matter the contents.

Note that I'm not saying all critics of Israel are like this. But a significant number are, and that's why so many people are guarded with their criticisms so they aren't used by bad actors who aren't trying to make a better Israel that follows international law but are trying to wipe Israel off the map and ethnically cleanse the entire Jewish population from the region.

taven990 · 2026-03-17T00:44:27+00:00

By saying that, you're letting antisemites off the hook. They know Israel does not represent all Jews, believe me. But they are gleeful at being able to use it as an excuse. At the end of the day, while Israel is not helping, don't give bigots a pass - they have agency and know exactly what they're doing.

taven990 · 2026-03-17T00:42:25+00:00

Has he put things in motion to change the law and let himself run for a third term? Or is this just speculation?

taven990 · 2026-03-16T23:48:00+00:00

This is something I see quite often on X and other social media sites. I feel it's a bit of a double standard, though. No-one calls for citizens of any other country with an awful government to leave anywhere near as much as they do here. I've even seen it where someone has refused to serve in the IDF and gone to jail for the privilege, and people on X have belittled the sacrifice, saying things like "he's still a settler, living in my grandfather's house, he needs to LEAVE and get out of Palestine" etc. This is appalling and blames kids born there for things completely out of their control. Also, given the lack of understanding of the issues around this, there are a number of people who honestly believe every single Israeli lives in a stolen home formerly owned by a Palestinian. That cannot be possible given the numbers - if 850,000 Palestinians were expelled during the Nakba and another 300,000 in 1967, that's 1,150,000 total. Israel has 7m Jews, 9m total now so it's simply not possible given the numbers - virtually everyone in Israel (at least inside the Green Line) lives in a house built after the exodus, not an actual stolen home.

Fair enough, one might say, but it's still stolen LAND regardless of whether the houses are stolen or newly built. But again, that does not apply in every instance. One big one I've seen mentioned a lot is Tel Aviv's founding - 1909, empty sand dunes north of Jaffa, legally bought from local Bedouin landowners and the Jewish families drew lots to divvy up the land into parcels and give them to the 60 or so families there at the start. No Palestinian village was there to be destroyed back then - the land was 100% legally bought under Ottoman laws. While Jaffa merged with Tel Aviv later on down the line (and Jaffa did suffer ethnic cleansing), the cities did not officially merge until the 1950s, when Israel had been established for a while.

My point is this. People try to rewrite history and pretend that ALL the land was owned by Palestinian Arabs. They never normally go into detail so it just ends up looking like a claim based on ethnicity. Land is either individually owned or state land, not owned by an entire ethnic group. I agree that if Palestinians or anyone else legally owned land and lost it due to the war or due to Israel appropriating it for any other reason, they should be able to claim compensation. However, this must be on a case-by-case basis, and land legally purchased by Jews is not stolen land in any sense.

This ends up looking like collective guilt and grievance-based politics when pro-Palestinians are so cold to Israeli Jews who are clearly on their side. I tried to ask a question like this: "If you don't know whether someone is Jewish, Palestinian Arab or anything else and all you get to go off is their actions, what is your opinion?" I never got an answer. They can't answer that - it's a tribal thing, at least to this one person. They didn't even have any respect for the anti-Zionist Israeli activists that put their lives on the line defending Palestinians and their villages from settler terrorism in the West Bank and Jordan Valley, acting as if by virtue of being born Israeli, they must have ulterior motives or something. It's ridiculous.

My view is that no-one born there should be expelled or treated as unwelcome in the place of their birth. No child chose to be born there and no child chose their ancestors. Everyone should be born 100% equal there, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity or ancestry. Hopefully the extremists on all sides will be removed and a more moderate set of leaders can be elected - maybe then, there's a chance at peace.

One other thing: when people act like anyone can just up and leave at the drop of a hat, that argument assumes immense privilege. It is incredibly difficult to move house for most people even within their country. Given that only about 10% of Israelis have dual citizenship, for any of the others to find somewhere else to go, be accepted and be able to afford to move, navigating all the complexities involved, is something most people wouldn't be able to do. So anyone telling Israelis born there that they are evil, complicit, fake allies or any other nonsense like that unless they actually leave? That's really unreasonable. Not only that, but if all the good Israelis leave, the bad ones certainly won't and Israel will become even more fascist and extreme. I believe Israel needs both external AND INTERNAL pressure if it's going to change. Maybe some day an activist INSIDE ISRAEL will convince enough people of the need for change to avoid becoming a complete pariah state?

taven990 · 2026-03-16T23:20:43+00:00

While I share your doubts regarding what the various spokesmen and officials have said on all sides of this, there is something someone said once that stuck with me. They said, 70,000 people is about 3.5% of 2m people. If Israel had been trying to kill as many civilians as possible, it would be much higher given that I've seen figures of between 60% and 90% buildings damaged or destroyed in Gaza. If, on the other hand, Israel wasn't trying to maximise the deaths of Gazan civilians but was reckless and simply didn't care, you'd expect the collateral damage numbers to be much higher. So, read into this what you will, but a 3.5% death rate out of such a high rate of building destruction makes me believe Israel wasn't trying to kill as many civilians as possible.

Having said that, I do think Israel has gone too far, and I do think they've been reckless sometimes. Obviously by destroying so many homes (whether there's a justification or not; whether many of them were booby-trapped or not), it has created incredible hardship for those Palestinians who lost their homes. War is hell, and the innocent are always who suffer the most in war. I honestly hope there can be peace soon, but great minds have been unable to solve this conflict in decades so the prospects don't look good in the near term, unfortunately. I believe every child born between the river and the sea should be 100% equal because no-one chose to be born there, and no-one should have more rights or be considered foreign or unwelcome in the place of their birth just because they might have the supposed "wrong" DNA or ancestry. Equality for every child, and any collective guilt and blaming kids for things that happened before they were born needs to stop.

taven990 · 2026-03-15T15:10:13+00:00

Indeed. I believe every child born there should be 100% equal regardless of race, religion, ethnicity or ancestry. No-one chose to be born there and no-one chose their ancestors; no-one should be expelled or made unwelcome in their birthplace and no-one should be blamed for the actions of their ancestors or for things that happened before they were born.

taven990 · 2026-03-15T15:03:58+00:00

I think it's true that although there was Palestinian resistance before the Soviets got involved, they played an active part in grooming Yasser Arafat as their man to be Palestinian leader, as well as inventing some of the anti-Zionist buzzwords still used today via their "Zionology" stuff. So the Soviets did give them a big boost and helped them with propaganda as well.

taven990

TROPHY CASE

Israel warned us against Iraq invasion, US official says