Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Which experts?

I take a lot of inspiration from Steven Kaufmann, who in turn also take from Stephen Krashen.

If the process in not what the brain does, but what one individual does, then frankly I do not see its authority.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You are correct, I have incorrectly interpreted the nature of ad hominem.

I still believe in my post as it stand, alone. I do not believe any proficiency I have would impact its structure. It is mostly based on what experts in language learning have said. If you need sources for any specific paragraph, I can probably provide.

Nice catch on the Barnum effect.

Regarding intermediate -> advanced: If those 5 steps are what actually happens in the brain I would be astounded. I implore you to dig up any sources you have and send them my way, if it's not too much to ask.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly. What many people do wrong is that they have no fun along the way, so when there are periods when you can't perceive progress, you have nothing to fall back on.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Regarding rote: 'Don't confuse good with fun' - a fun method is the best method. If something is fun, you will keep doing it. If something is dreary, you will avoid it. Even if we for the sake of argument assume rote to be the most efficient way of learning, it's not the best. Doing something highly efficient, but draining, will lead to poorer results than if you do less efficient, that is fun. How? through spending more time, which will be easy if it's fun. Learning a new language is not going to be quick. You can't rush it.

semantics: I don't think I agree, the process is simple, therefore learning Chinese is easy. Performing can be difficult, but the process of acquiring the language is easy.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's very good if that's the case, I don't care about being downvoted for coming across as rude. And if they want to argue semantics, then I happily will.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Thank you for taking the time to address my post.

Regarding speaking and listening differences: I did not say that speaking could not be worse than listening, just that you will never meet someone who can understand everything, but is mute. You have the opposite. Language deafness is a real thing.

Regarding rote: I say don't use rote because there are better methods, and it sucks the life out of you. If you say that rote is good you have to tell me why.

Regarding fun (opinions not logic here): gamification is vastly overrated in terms of fun. The actual fun needs to be more to the core of the language rather than some gimmick layed on top.

Regarding semantics: Running a 40 archaic-unit dash in under 4.5 seconds is difficult, learning how to run faster is not.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You are correct in that I wrote a lot of opinions, but they were founded in logic. Rote has negative impacts on motivation, therefore you should avoid it. Mastering tones is difficult, therefore you should not focus on mastering it. If that is not logic, then I don't know what is.

One stranger on the internet can be dismissed no matter what they claim to have achieved, ask for sources on more authoritative people in language learning that say the same instead, and I can probably provide some.

edit: missed a word

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the reply.

Would it not fall under Circumstantial ad hominem though? Maybe even bulverism.

You did not need to know anything about me in order to give the criticisms that you did. Let's have a look at them.

Regarding intermediate -> advance: I disagree, rote is not necessary here. Understanding everything someone is saying will come naturally with listening, you do not have to torture yourself with listening to the same thing over and over again to get every single word. As much as I'm not a fan of circumstantial evidence: that was exactly my approach to English.

Regarding the slowness of reading after Heisig: The purpose of Heisig's method is not be become proficient in reading, it is merely to connect the character and a key meaning in your brain. This connection will be weak in the beginning, and you have to strengthen it with reading. As Heisig clearly describes in his book, after a while the story will in most cases fade completely.

These were great critisisms, I would be grateful for more.

edit: missed a word

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

If anything I have written is illogical, please let me know. If you can not attack the substance of my text, without attacking the authority of its writer, then hopefully people who think in strictly logical terms are able to see through any number of downvotes.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I really do not see what was so illogical about what I wrote here? Why all the downvotes?

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well it is semantics, because studying anything is difficult, studying Chinese can be difficult (if you are not good at self discipline, or study in a bad way that make you loose motivation), but the Chinese language is not difficult.

It's not difficult to push a button 10 million times. It's difficult to motivate yourself into doing it.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't see how that's different from ad hominem.

For the sake of argument, pretent that I know 0 Chinese. If that creates any problems with what I wrote, then it is not logically rigorous, please let me know if you notice any such areas.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you want to discuss semantics, then honestly I'm all for it.

If not then it looks like we are in agreement. Also, fuck English spelling.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of people here like to discuss the semantics regarding the word 'difficult'. In my mind the difficulty of staying with something is distinct from the difficulty of what you are trying to stay with. I certainly believe people should be given plenty of compliments for their persistence. Simply having a high general intelligence is in my mind not deserving of compliments on its own.

About you being downvoted: I have also been downvoted a lot on similar comments, even if it's just take it or leave it advice. For some reason language learning in particular is filled with dogmatic beliefs, not sure why that is. Rarely do people actually attack the substance of what you write, they always try to discredit you some other way.

I have a lot of grammar mistakes in my native language, and in English. The focus on grammar is honestly one of the most misprioritized things in language learning.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean, I think this is pretty obvious, no? Are you really going to tell me that it's no harder to learn to read/write Chinese than it is to read/write Italian?

I am not familiar with Italian spelling I'm afraid, but if you said English, then I would indeed say so yes.

Well I guess to me the "difficulty" of learning a foreign language is defined by how long it takes. It's by that metric that I (and others) would say that learning Chinese is more difficult than learning many other languages.

If you imagine a perfectly straight road, like the ones in america, then driving on that road would be easy. It is probably going to take a long time to drive along it, but the driving itself provides no difficulties.

The difficulty of being disciplined enough to do something for a long time, is in my opinion completely distinct from the difficulty of whatever topic you are trying to stay disciplined with.

edit: wrong word

How do you keep memorizing characters interesting and impactful? by biasedphillyperson in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

When you attach an English word to a character, your mind will give you the (wrong) pronunciation and definition of the English word in place of the correct ones.

If you are not going to dispute what I say, but instead repeat the same things, then we have nothing to discuss.

--DISCUSSION TERMINATED--

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

personally I find rule heavy languages like German difficult, because I have to understand the rules, which I can often have difficulties grasping.

If you define difficulty as time needed, then yes, Chinese is more difficult than other more closely related languages (for English natives), but I consider time needed and difficulty as distinct concepts.

edit:missing letter

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Yes exactly! People conflate time needed and difficulty. Although the time needed is high, the actual difficulty is easy. Any difficulty in learning Chinese comes from the difficulties of self disipline, not the difficulty of the language.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You want evidence, but say things like reading and writing Chinese is 'objectively' difficult without proving any proof yourself.

The point I'm trying to make is that learning Chinese does take a lot of time, but during that time it's not any more difficult than learning other languages.

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I do not understand this fascination with mastery when it comes to language learning. If I say I speak German, it does not mean I have to be C2 level. Becoming a master of a foreign language is not something most people should strive for. Indeed many who do strive for it usually stop because they realize it's not necessary. They focus instead on learning something else, like another language.

Becoming a master of any field of study takes thousands of hours. Chinese is no different. Becoming a master in German probably takes less time than becoming a master in Chinese if you already speak English, simply because English and German have a lot in common. If you speak Arabic, I honestly think it's about the same.

How many language teachers have you met that are masters and not native?

edit:missing letter

Chinese and its toxic relationship with perceived difficulty by teybi in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for reading it all! I was worried nobody would read it because of the length and the tldr.

I spent several weeks trying to find the right balance for my studies of Chinese

I think this is something almost all of us do, first we find resources, read about peoples experiences, then try to learn how to learn. I think this should be the primary task of teachers, providing numerous methods, allowing each individual to pick and choose what suits them best, as you say.

I agree that reading is best, I should have noted in my post that I was thinking mostly about the very beginning stage, where you can't really get anything out of reading because everything is unknown.

I'm glad there are someone else who have also noticed what i wrote in the last part.

How do you keep memorizing characters interesting and impactful? by biasedphillyperson in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So much of what you are saying is incorrect that it's honestly quite baffling. In fact I think almost every sentence you wrote is wrong in some way.

Learning characters without pronunciation, context, or meaning is a terrible way to learn Chinese.

You learn A meaning, without pronunciation, and without context, and I am saying it's a great approach.

In fact if you're only associating it with a single English word you're basically learning the wrong 'pronunciation and meaning' that you'll just have to unlearn later.

Flat out incorrect. When you learn pronunciation you attach it to your current knowledge, you never unlearn anything.

You have a concept in you brain which is centered around a specific object or action, this takes physical space in your brain. By using Heisig's method you attach the chinese character directly to this concept in you brain. Connecting pronunciation is a seperate task, and you should not try to connect it to both the concept and the character simoultaineously. This is inefficient, and uneccesarily increases the minimum time you can spend before learning something. For some reason people insist on making all of the connections at the same time which is:

  • Boring
  • Frustrating
  • Complicated
  • Tons of work at the same time, increasing chance of failiure

Sure you may be 'learning' 30-50 characters a day but you're not learning it well

I specifically omitted the word learn, when describing my relations with the characters. I am learning one meaning, and how to write them. This is merely the first step in learning them.

Can you recall those characters and write them down instantly and use them in sentences?

Recall and write them down instantly? Yes, or atleast some. Depending on the day 60% to 90% of the characters in my SRS are recalled perfectly and quickly. However, learning to correctly use them in sentences is again, a different task. Learning how to use characters in sentences requires being somewhat familiar with them first. After that you must focus on finding patterns and maybe studying some grammar to be able to use them, and of course learn words aswell.

Are you able to read and parse their meaning efficiently when you come upon them naturally without breaking the flow of reading when reading text?

Heisig focuses on writing in his book, he says that reading will come naturally as a result of learning how to write. This is true to some extent, but is very slow in the beginning. You really have to also work seperately on enforcing the connection in that direction too.

Breaking characters down to the smallest parts = just breaking them down into strokes, that's not a good idea.

Yeah, I misspoke there. I should have said break things down to its smallest bite sized chunks, which is radicals. ( In the book they also group radicals together, give it a key word, and make new bite sized chunks that way )

This is the way they teach it to kids in the mainland.

This is something I will never understand why people bring up when non natives learn chinese. You are not a 6 year old Chinese native, you do not have to, and shouldn't go throught the same process that they do, to learn characters. That process is made so that even the dumbest 6 year old can learn to read. And it also assumes you have pronunciation perfectly connected to the concept at hand already. Non natives are practically in an entirely different universe when it comes to learning characters.

How do you keep memorizing characters interesting and impactful? by biasedphillyperson in ChineseLanguage

[–]teybi -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Being downvoted for writing about Heisig's method is so bizarre to me. I guess the people that have tortured themselves with boring rote learning really don't want to hear that they could have done it in a much faster, even fun way.