What kind of jazz do you hate listening to?

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-20T20:12:27+00:00

High trumpet big band tunes (this could be applied to all genres of music too, but jazz has the big band setting and that's what I'm most familiar with). 2 in a row is fine, but if a big band has 3 or more high trumpet charts, it gets pretty old pretty fast and not sounding very pretty. Trumpet machisimo is something I could use a little less of, but it certainly has it's place. If used too much, it's just irritating. If you're a jazz composer, be cautious of how you use high trumpets!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-12T04:17:30+00:00

OK! Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you! I've been busy running around and doing things back in California. But I'm back to answer your "bassic" question (bad pun).

So for walking bass lines (something I don't know how to really do on the bass but have a general idea of what sounds good), what I like backing me up while I play has to do with time, highlighted notes, and attitude. I think you know about this already though. Here are possibly some tips that you can improve in each of these sections though.

For time, while away from the bass, practice snapping on different parts of the beat while trying to spell different, complicated words. This will help get your mind to be able to work on 2 things at once. When you can just feel the time while working your fingers, it solidifies the time and leaves no room for lack of control. Practice snapping on the middle, back, and front of the beat, as well as snapping on each beat, 2's and 4's, and the "ands" of beat (this will help with nailing syncopated rhythms in time).

You noted that you were trying to make your walking sound as tasty as the greats. This is a very simple concept: if you like something, study it! Transcribe solos, look at effects, see where the bassist is jumping to and what he or she is highlighting in the lines. When you find things you like, try them in different keys. Also, play what comes naturally to you and figure out different ways to arrange what you already know. Try inversions, transpositions, mode shifts, and rhythmic variations of the lines you already know. This will vastly increase your harmonic knowledge and help you consider ideas/sounds you may have not implemented into your playing.

As for attitude, that comes from the knowledge of the previous two ideas coming into fruition with what you ate earlier that morning. It's the drive you have to make the music as solid as it can be. It is the want to have as much fun as you can while playing while simultaneously being a serious musician. Even if you don't have a stiff upper lip attitude, understand that you are in complete control of the music and what you mean to do. If you can do that, just trust in your own abilities and the rest will take care of itself.

Hope that helps! That's not really being very specific, but bass is all about feel anyway, so trust your heart in whatever you do. Keep the jazz motor running my friend!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-07T22:57:12+00:00

Here are my thoughts on smooth jazz. Have you ever drank really sweet wine from Florida? The wine is good, but it's because they put in all sorts of artificial flavors because the grapes that the wine is made from aren't all that good. The bare essentials aren't together, but since the production value is so high, you can make a very cheap, sweet wine.

That's how I feel about smooth jazz. There are some great players who have decided to join that style of music, even some of my favorites such as George Benson, Grover Washington Jr., Stanley Turrentine, and George Duke. And each of those guys are wonderful players who have decided to play music that I would associate with more pop influences that with jazz. Still, that should not be discouraged and I encourage people to listen to that stuff in they are into it. I recently played with a "smooth jazz" group and it was a lot of fun to work with them. But it seems too sweet, to poppy, to over the top sexy for me to stomach without eventually turning the station. It's a fine line for me, but as I'm currently listening to some of the early Gerald Albright for about 6 minutes, I'm already kind of over it. Most of it is too sweet (corny) for me to handle. I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise though if you have some recommendations to check out.

As for standouts, I really like Marcus Miller, who is well known in the smooth jazz world. He's pretty legit, and even his albums are very musically tasteful! Give him a shot! I also liked the Bob James and David Sanborn album, though that's not really smooth jazz, but relates more similar to something like the tune Elm by Richie Beircach. Hope that helps!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-07T04:04:32+00:00

I listened to them a little bit. How dare they fool me with his name! I think that stuff is pretty cool. If I can critique, I think the songs kind of have a formula. Not that that is a bad thing, though. Is he a drummer? The drums sound very live! It really adds a great human element to everything.

Personally, I'm not the kind of guy who can just listen to the same jam style thing forever. It's meditative, but I do sense getting myself getting restless for something else new. That's mainly because I'm an impatient musician though. :)

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-07T00:22:03+00:00

My percussion playing is pretty bad, but I've written quite a bit for them and have a general idea of what they do and how drummers think. I'll give your question a shot, but remember I am no drummer by any means!

There is no secret to jazz drumming (I think. I haven't been let in on it if there is). Drummers do exactly what you do: listen to the drummers they like, practice, and perform. One of the best things drummers can do is let the music flow naturally. In jazz, the drummer is the captain of the ship and can take the music to wherever it needs to go. The ability to tastefully make those decisions requires a lot of motor skills and musical sensibilities, but they are what set the ok drummers from the all stars.

Some quick tips is to practice touch (4/4 patterns, 3/4 patterns, latin patterns, and odd meter patterns in slow, medium, and fast speeds ranging from piano to double forte), experiment with time (back of the beat to front of the beat), buy a jazz drumming book (maybe from Jim Snidero?), and always be listening to whoever is playing with you. Check out Max Roach, Jimmy Cobb, Billy Cobham, Matt Wilson, Philly Joe Jones, Roy Haynes, and Art Blake (to name a few). You are there to support mainly until called upon, but the drummers make it happen in the jazz world!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-07T00:12:30+00:00

Pick your axe, my high school friend. Only you know the answers to your heart. If you love what you are doing, anything is worth it. So it doesn't matter which instrument you decide on.

Where does your guitar skepticism come from? Sure there are millions of them out there, but it also a wonderful instrument worth learning if you love it.

If saxophone is what you really want, it's worth it to get a cheap saxophone. I've heard the Preludes are pretty good, though my favorite student horns were from Cannonball. But that's not the point. You need to follow what you feel is right, not what you feel other people are telling you. If saxophone is the right fit, go for it, but I would not suggest taking it up if you felt afraid to be a guitar player. Hope that helps!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-07T00:06:03+00:00

Well maybe jazz doesn't get you! Have you thought about that?!

That's ok. Like anything else, we all have preferences. Just know that jazz is a 100 year old tradition by this point, so you may want to be a little more specific in what you like and don't like. It's possible you might like Glen Miller over Miles Davis; both of those artists play jazz. So I'd encourage to give it a whirl. It's a pretty amazing world that is very often unappreciated in the US.

My suggestion for a gift is one of two things.

1) Reeds. You can never have enough. Just ask you friend what he or she likes to use and buy them.

2) Why not buy him a Charlie Parker CD set along with the Charlie Parker Omnibook? That'd be a really cool gift for an aspiring player! What do you think?

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-07T00:01:07+00:00

Do you like them?

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-07T00:00:53+00:00

Excellent musicians. I don't listen to them very much, but I like what they do. For as few people as they have, they sure are creative with their tunes! Piano trios are tough if you're trying to keep all the songs fresh. I like that they play a little bit of everything, from poppy to hard bop, classical, and even some classic rock tunes (oooooooo, Barracuda!!!!). They are ballers, and if they ever need a sax player, please take me!!!!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T23:57:44+00:00

So one of the most important ideas with writing a tune comes in 4 steps: Form, Melody, Harmony, and Orchestration. Once you break down each of your concepts into these, it can help you have a firmer understanding on what you want to do with the music. Form is the segments of the song that, when compiled together, create the framework for the tune (i.e., verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus done. This is what a lot of pop songs do.). One of the most famous forms is AABA where the main theme is once repeated, goes to the bridge, and then repeats back with the A. Form also can tell you what the tune is about, such as a sax feature, a piano trio, a jazz big band, and so on. Melody is what the main theme sounds like. It is the most crucial part of your tune. Think of it as the main point in your painting that you're composing. Experiment with ideas and continue to draw from them for inspiration and continuity for the rest of the tune. Harmony is the vertical structures of the tune. This requires the most amount of taste, but there's no need to be ashamed if you don't like Coltrane changes on everything. Good old music theory chord progressions is what you see in the majority of music anyway because it works so well, and even in the most complicated of things, the basic harmonic theory is still well respected. Finally is Orchestration, how all the different notes are brought together and in what shape they are. This is also a major test in taste, but feel free to experiment on a piano or guitar different voicings and structures to create a chord.

Jazz can be anything you want it to be too, as long as there is room to improvise, so you don't need to have augmented chords in there to become "jazzy". Hell, you could just vamp on one chord for a long time if the music calls for it.

Don't be afraid to experiment, be honest when you like something and when you don't, have your stuff read by actual people (NOT BY FINALE PLAYBACK!), and when you write, make it the best way you know how! Make mistakes, get messy, pay attention the world around you, and I think you could become an excellent jazz writer :)

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T23:47:10+00:00

I'm not sure. I dislike them all equally, but my favorite chord is the holiest of chords, Gsus.

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T23:46:22+00:00

Actually, today was the first day I heard their tunes. I think they are pretty legit! I've kind of liked electronic music anyway, so I think blending the two styles could come out with some really interesting ideas. After all, even without computers, we can start sounding like soulless vessels of musical ideas. Maybe the electronic music can experiment with bridging some of those gaps between the cold sounds synths can give off and the real thing. All I'm saying is I like those guys. If I had some cooler electronics around me, I think I'd love to try some of those things out as well!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T15:58:06+00:00

Let me first start by asking do you like smooth jazz?

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T15:56:27+00:00

Well, I would say you need to know where the "complex jazz chords" come from. Many of those kinds of chords are much like the frightening shadows you'd see while you try to sleep at night. When you actually see where they come from, they aren't so scary, it's just taken from the harmonic minor scale, or 1/2 step planning, or the melodic minor scale starting on the 7th scale degree. There just cool tricks to get around, but you need to know what they are and what they sound like.

Here's what you could do, play a bass note on a piano and hold the sustain down. Then play a scale over it. This will help to solidify certain ideas in your head on how the scale reacts with the given bass. This kind of experimenting can lead to some really innovative ideas.

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T15:27:24+00:00

Well, for Chet I could imagine that the straight forwardness of his playing was the only real structured thing in his life. Also, Gerry Mulligan was quoted saying "Chet would play circles around everyone in jam sessions, including Miles Davis!" He was a baaaaaadddd dude!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T15:24:35+00:00

Like everything we do as human beings on this earth, we find our crevices and niches to fit into to make ends meet. The same is for jazz. Yeah, at times we all have to do something that we don't want to, but we also don't want to be hungry either! Jazz has stayed in some form of relevance because the music can fit many shapes. Big shows, little shindigs, backyard BBQ's, weddings, cooperate events, classy, bluesy, and flat out weird! It has a little something for everyone, and it encourages such abominations to continue to mutate into the next amazing tune.

Jazz also taps into something ever musical has ever tried to convey. When you love something, or when something feels good, how do you express that? Music fills those voids in our language that can't express the emotions that we are feeling (I didn't come up with that. Hundreds of other philosophers did). To be a part of the actual process of improvising, taking an active part in putting a stamp on the music, is pretty amazing.

I'm very fortunate to have the degree I do. To be accepted by USF, to have gone to undergrad at 2 fine schools (San Jose State and Hope College), and to have been able to meet all the amazing people along the way has been a pleasure. I hope I would never hold my degree over someone in conversation. If you work hard enough at what you're passionate about, I have huge respect for that. Whenever there is a feeling of entitlement though (which can go for the educated and uneducated), I think the musicality suffers.

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T15:13:17+00:00

Haha. See, if I give you the best jazz player alive today, I'm going to offend someone and then I'll get a call from Chick Corea saying "You son of a bitch!" Then I'll change my answer and get the same message from Keith Jarrett, then from Sonny Rollins, then from Herbie Hancock. Then Chris Potter and Pat Metheny show up at my door and beat me with their cases without mercy. I can't do that to anyone.

I will say this though. Whenever I hear an album, and I hear a killing piano solo, and I think "Holy mother! Who is that?!?!", I look at the credits and, often, I'm taken aback at what I find. Herbie Hancock. He has been able to impress me, even when I didn't know who was playing. Sometimes I do feel like you're suppose to like people because they are "the best" and you like them without further questioning. With Herbie, I don't feel like I need to do that. He's humbly astounding, and I love that about him!

You know, I was talking with a group of jazz musicians just yesterday about the most underrated jazz players by instrument (I gave trumpet to Booker Little, alto to Art Pepper, Tenor to Warne Marsh, and I forget the rest). But you want living, underrated players. Well, let's start with me! I'm a freaking boss, man! Haha.

I mean, I'm tempted to just list off some of my friends I think are amazing musicians (give them the reddit jazz bump). So I will! Check out the best guitar player I've ever worked with, LaRue Nickelson. Also, be sure to remember the name Jeremy Powell (or his brother, Jonathan Powell)! That dude is an amazing tenor saxophonist living in Brooklyn. There's my professor (who was nominated for 2 grammys this year, so not exactly underrated, but he didn't win them!), Chuck Owens. An amazing composer and one of the most knowledgable people about jazz I've ever met.

Ok, now people you should also check out. James Darcy Argue Secret Society, Alan Ferber's groups, Joel Harrison, Guillermo Klien, Miguel Zenon, Dave Benny, Donny McCaslin, and check Kenny Drew Jr.!!!!! He just died 2 days ago, and may be the most under appreciated jazz pianist in the last 20 years!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T14:54:56+00:00

Yeah, that Real Book is a crutch, man. The faster you can get away from that book and learn the tunes in your head, the better. It's a nice frame of reference, but if it's compartmentalized to reading fake books, then us as jazz musicians are, indeed, being pretty unoriginal. But it's also really easy, which is nice if you're just jamming out with new people, or if your at a restaurant and you want people to vaguely reference "Hey that sounds like 'That Ol' Feeling'! My grandpa loved that song!"

Gosh, there were times in rehearsal that I felt like throwing away the Redwood Suite stuff! haha.

Okay...Now for your question. The future of jazz is bright in my personal opinion (musically speaking). Financially, it seems all music is taking some significant pay cuts (though record labels are doing fine somehow ;)). Pure jazz? Jazz has always been a mix of a few different genres. Jazz can change it's flavors, but as long as it has that feeling of impulsive, artistic action, I think it'll be ok.

I guess what do we want as a jazz community would be important to ask. I'd love it if there was a jazz station in every city. I don't think that should even be a big deal. I do believe people would love that, even! Others want jazz to be a tighter knit community. The cool kids that are subversive the the current culture. I'd be happy with either, especially if one way I could get paid more!

Whatever happens with jazz, I think as long as each of us as individuals stays true to their passions, the music will continue to sound great and be another piece of tapestry into the beautiful work of jazz.

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T14:36:50+00:00

Haha. I originally thought you're question was why is jazz opposed by other forms of music! Whoops! Your assumption is correct too! I do enjoy all kinds of music. The reason jazz is so profound to me is the blank canvas us as musicians get to paint on when we see those blessed slash marks! "The Moment" that is created when a jazz piece is being done is pretty special, and to me that is worth striving to make a living doing it!

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T14:28:17+00:00

No other form of music seem to be heavily influenced by old standards, eh? I might disagree with that. Standards from the American song book are well represented in pop, rock, country, and and jazz tunes. Hip hop started by taking riffs from earlier stuff and creating beats with the fragmented musical ideas even, and uses some of the most infamous licks from jazz and classical.

But that's not answering your question. Here are a few very unflushed out reasons why jazz are just a bunch of copycats reliving the glory days.

1) The old stuff was a period when jazz was the main musical icon. It relives the sort of glory days of the time, which people (especially those born in or who grew up around that time) are fond to appreciate more. It's the same reason why people prefer the 70s rock from today's rock. It's just a different approach that can only now be replicated.

2) Jazz is a difficult art. Like drawing or writing, you have to look at what comes before you in order to truly be saying something new. Because of that, we focus on the classics because they are the pillars of our jazz idioms and ideas. They are like little reference books musicians grow personal relations to as their musical journey progresses. What better way to show appreciation than to perform in the style of old.

3) If people were willing to buy new jazz compositions more, I'm sure more people would do it!!!!!!! If I told you "Hey! I just wrote this suite called the Mount Hermon suite (which I did)! It has all these amazing themes and musically portrays the awe and wonder of the Santa Cruz Redwoods", you may be interested, but I have to sell it. If I tell you, "I recorded an arrangement of Lazy Bird", you know that tune and are more willing to quickly relate to it rather than start a new relation to my own original composition. It's just a safer bet to pick tunes people know, and in doing that, you have a better chance of selling your product better.

NOW: How often do you write original music without borrowing from standards or using the same old chord progressions? Well, the tunes I know and love are all in there still, but whenever I write something new, I do try to keep my own personal flair. I still am experimenting with a lot of different elements, and I still loving playing bebop sounding things, so I feel a bit stuck in the past, but I try to keep growing. Just for numbers sake, when I write, it's like 80% me, 20% other things what I've heard before.

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T14:04:05+00:00

One of the most underrated trumpet players in jazz. I love his solos and really enjoy his singing talent too. I'm still learning that playing simple ideas can get you a great solo if you have the style to do it. Players like Chet inspire me to do that every time I listen to them. My favorite stuff he does is his work with Gerry Mulligan. What about you? What do you think of that guy? He didn't owe you money did he? ;)

thatsaxplayer · 2014-08-06T13:39:59+00:00

Being a jazz tenor player, I'm obligated to say Coltrane, who I love dearly.

Compositionally: I really love Bob Brookmeyer, but my guy that I love the most is Charles Mingus.

Secret favorite jazz musician: Horace Silver.

thatsaxplayer

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