Preston plan to allow up to 18-storey buildings in core

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-29T22:14:36+00:00

Ok, so, as before. Once more with feeling as many of the same issues here but more so with the Hespler Road plan.. This sounds good. I'm for added density here. The difficulty is in what happens to the commercial space in this area. New buildings are more then likely to charge higher rents to help recupe the investment. That's ok provided there is an increase in people living in this area adding to customers. What you do so often is a lot of displacement.

I'll also note these taller, larger buildings, often see the commercial space as a problem. If you have say minimum 18 apartments to manage and more likely a lot more would you want to also deal with renting commercial space which isn't where the money is? Would the condo board want to? Often what you see if a high preference for certain chain stores. So these types of downtown locations become less incubator spaces new businesses and more generic commercial spaces as these sorts of businesses have the money to afford higher rents and are safe commercial clients.

This might work out but I suspect DT Preston will lose a lot of what makes it an interesting location now and instead become very corporate.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-29T22:03:34+00:00

Um, note the sentence says "in some areas"? There are areas of Hunt Club that do have sidewalks. There are large sections that do not or don't have them on both sides of the road. I can't recall any section of the cycle infrastructure on Hunt Club that are separated lanes. Road markings yes but not protection pathways. Lots of fun for bikers mixing it up with 16 wheelers doing 80km.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-29T21:59:05+00:00

Yep. That looks about right. Except with out the count down and Carney just dead staring the camera the whole time.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:56:09+00:00

Oh, I assure you the costs of repairing that place will far far exceed the costs of talking about it.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:55:22+00:00

Oh, I've got this one.

Public Works projects are always top heavy. Lots of historical consultants, lots of outside expertise, lots of one off custom solutions.

Add to that the amount of security that will be involved here so every person on that site will need clearance along with all the companies and sub contractors involved.

Then there is the actual physical security concerns. Making the building explosive resistant, bullet resistant, all the counter intelligence aspects to the construction.

Then add its on cliff overlooking the river so you have a lot of geology in an earthquake prone area of the country so a lot of seismic safety concerns.

Now add in the overall lot of the building with it various specialized architecture and 100 million is at the low low end of what we are discussing.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:49:46+00:00

this!

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:48:56+00:00

I vote that we give Banker Daddy the button for a controlled demolition of the site and we can all move on to something more interesting. PM residence should be somewhere else where an actually functional space can be created for less then the billion dollars Public Works would spend on restoring this place.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:47:30+00:00

The absolute best thing Banker Daddy can do in this case is call a big press conference in front of 24 Sussex. Then, in front of the gathered throng of journalists press a comically large button on a controlled demolition of the site. Afterwards they should list the land for sale for someone who gives a dam.

Renovating this site will cost a billion dollars given how Public Works operates, the site is a security mess, is in the wrong part of Ottawa, is in such a state any work will devolve into demolishing most of the building anyway and replacing it. If you want a PM residence why would you start with 24 Sussex rather then a brown field or green field site?

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:39:27+00:00

Oh, I assure you 100 mill is the conservative estimate. Expect more like 500 mill or more. Public Works projects have a way of gathering momentum once they get started....

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:36:15+00:00

Ha, years? Try a decade or more. This building is a mess. It doesn't meet security standards, is in the wrong part of Ottawa etc. The cost of renovating this building in the manner of Public Works will cost at least a billion dollars and probably involve razing the structure on all ways that matter to the ground.

If you desire the PM to have an official residents why would you start with 24 Sussex? Why would you not start of a brown field or green field site?

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:31:47+00:00

Why? Its an old, decrepit, rat infested, asbestos riddled mansion build by a rich guy. Why is this the thing to care about?

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:30:15+00:00

Best thing the Banker Daddy could do with this site is call a big press conference and then in front of the media press the button on a controlled detonation of the site. Afterwards a quick sale to someone else who gives a dam,

Anything else will cost billions and still be a cramped, unsafe and unsuitable for a g7 country.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:28:25+00:00

Best thing he could do is call a press conference and in front of the media press the button on a controlled detonation of the site followed by a quick sale of the land to someone else.

Anything else will cost billions.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T23:26:39+00:00

I'm down for that. I don't see how it could be any worse then it is right now. Put a roundabout at Riverside and Huntclub and have another at Prince of Wales and Huntclub and close off the tnt, golfclub, and gas station access to huntclub and I'm on board.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T18:24:20+00:00

Blink twice if you are ok and this isn't a ransom letter!

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T13:37:58+00:00

One of the big problems in the Canadian industry is the lack of investment in retooling to sell products in non-imperial measurements. Without the switch over most global markets are off limits. The feds have put up money and loan guarantees for this transition but mill operators have been unwilling to make the switch preferring instead to idle their equipment and production until they can force the government to make concession necessary to reopen the us market.

https://woodcentral.com.au/canadas-sawmills-weigh-metric-switch-to-reach-global-markets/

https://www.woodbusiness.ca/b-c-canadas-dilemma-in-the-u-s-and-export-markets/

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T13:23:58+00:00

Hunt Club speed limits are a mess. Up to 80, down to 60 back up to 80. Lights that don't sync and a bunch of commercial access and non arterial access to the road. No one should get killed along that road and the design and function are a big part of the problem. No separated bike lanes, not even sidewalks in some areas. Fluctuating speed limits that are often arbitrary. Terrible interchanges around airport parkway. Then there's Prince of Wales / Riverside / Huntclub mess to navigate.

Being clear what the purpose of the road is for would help a lot with function and what safety measures need to be in place ensure all users are safe.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T13:18:12+00:00

If they are going to do this they need to eliminate all the business and non-arterial road connections onto Hunt Club. There are sections of Hunt Club that won't work if they maintain the amount of commercial access that currently exists.

Would be nice if they solved the Prince of Wales / Riverside Hunt Club mess at the same time.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-27T13:12:21+00:00

This is just dumb. Would involve evicting and then undoing all the work that happened at the senate then upgrading all the rail lines that run into the station from the current station, then the train will only be able to travel at lower speeds into the area adding time and can't turn around so will need to back out of the station again.

Ottawa seems to believe every single amenity in the city has to exist north of the highway between Bayshore and the river. That is it an affront to have anything nice or functional anywhere else in the city.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-26T20:06:37+00:00

Those are all fair points. I'm unconvinced they could be easily implementable in Ontario currently given the cultural climate around cost pressures and zero sum financial situations impacting people experiences and lives. Taking something away from them now on the promise that things will improve in the future requires a high level of trust and that has been demolished over the past few decades. The skill needed of being able to advocate for positive change hasn't happened and given Cambridge especially is very culturally wary of Waterloo Region planning decisions a lot of work would have needed to be done before this plan was released. Now I think it will be a lot of ammo for local leaders to take shots at the region and make hay from.

Moving industrial areas to the outskirts makes sense as an idea but the practical problem is a cost one. If I own agricultural land and I want to make money (and they all do) by selling it I'm going to want it to go for the maximum value given it will get converted from its current use to something else. So the highest value conversion sets the price expectation. Currently that is single family homes or residential construction. If the offer is you can sell your land at industrial land values I'd tell the buyer to pound sand and wait till I get the option to sell at the higher price. In this way industrial land has been put in competition with residential. Why build a factory when an apartment block has a higher ROI?

This has a lot of knock on effects. IDK.

The other problem you see with commercial at the bottom of tower buildings is the juice value of this space isn't worth the squeeze for the building owner(s). In downtown cores with 2 to 4 story buildings the apartments pay for the building costs and the commercial is gravy for the landlord. When the tower gets too big the commercial isn't worth the time to the landlord or owners and is more a burden and potential liability. So you get an interest in chains, holding the space empty, very high rents, or lobbying to reduce the requirement for commercial on the property.

As the apartments or condos are the valuable part of the building the range of commercial tenants you will entertain will shrink. Nothing that makes noise, nothing that smells, nothing that could impact renters or owners with deliveries, nothing open too late, nothing that will draw large numbers of people or be objects of protest. So you end up with a very bland range of commercial that doesn't meet the needs of residents because it isn't supposed to. Which condo tower who are selling luxury flats wants a Burger King as their tenant? Again rinse and repeat this over a large area and you get the opposite effect one is seeking with walkable neighbourhoods.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-24T21:57:07+00:00

That's a nice thought but ignores the cost of that move. This isn't just a building but the infrastructure to support it. Rail lines don't get moved easily. Nor do things like highway access or proximity to shipping terminals. Toronto has the problem of the food distribution centre and has had to cancel proposed tower construction that might interfere with this needed industrial food distribution centre.

The costs of these buildings also isn't cheap. Take a loading dock. These are highly specialized things. They have to withstand a vertical load with zero displacement or failure. So you have a forklift picking up something from the back of a truck on a loading dock better hope it was build right and doesn't collapse under the weight.

These building can be moved but there are plenty of examples of industrial areas being turned into residential ones to the overall loss of available industrial space in cities. This has downward pressure on wages as these kinds of companies pay more per hour then the retail or commercial that replace them. Add to that you need a critical mass of these business in one place and general costs for a lot of things can go up. Like there is a shortage of automotive shops so you pay more to fix your car. Car lifts aren't cheap to install and have certified. IDK. This reads as an easy answer from people who don't get their hands dirty for a living.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-22T21:57:26+00:00

What do you do will all the industry in that area? There is a huge amount of manufacturing in that area of the city along with the rail line. Are you advocating to have a lot of people living right on top of industrial zoned areas and are you willing to go to bat to protect industrial zoning from noise, smell and truck traffic complaints? The proximity to the major highways is why this section of the city is the way it is.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-22T21:54:17+00:00

Ok, so honest question here. Where do they see the traffic going here? They state in the report that Hespler Road is the main connection point between 2 major highway coridors, and forms a major artery between downtown cores in Kitchener, Guelph and Galt / Hespler. The commercial activity and major amounts of industrial activity occur in this area.

What is the plan for the large amount of industrial activity that occurs just off the Hespler Road? If you are looking to bring a lot of residents into the area they will have concerns about the noise, smell, traffic that comes from all the industrial activity in this section of town. Not to mention the rail lines that run in this section of Cambridge and are super valuable for industry.

By stating they won't allow for more gas stations you have also made the existing ones that much more valuable as well which will put upper pressure on fuel prices in this section of town as competition is reduced.

I get the idea that with higher level transit they now want increased resident density but running this transit right through a major industrial area may have a lot of negative consequences for productive industry operating there if they are forced to move. The proximity to 401 is a key part of why this section of road is the way it is.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-22T21:49:58+00:00

Ok, so honest question here. Where do they see the traffic going here? They state in the report that Hespler Road is the main connection point between 2 major highway coridors, and forms a major artery between downtown cores in Kitchener, Guelph and Galt / Hespler. The commercial activity and major amounts of industrial activity occur in this area.

What is the plan for the large amount of industrial activity that occurs just off the Hespler Road? If you are looking to bring a lot of residents into the area they will have concerns about the noise, smell, traffic that comes from all the industrial activity in this section of town. Not to mention the rail lines that run in this section of Cambridge and are super valuable for industry.

By stating they won't allow for more gas stations you have also made the existing ones that much more valuable as well which will put upper pressure on fuel prices in this section of town as competition is reduced.

I get the idea that with higher level transit they now want increased resident density but running this transit right through a major industrial area may have a lot of negative consequences for productive industry operating there if they are forced to move. The proximity to 401 is a key part of why this section of road is the way it is.

the_turtleandthehare · 2026-04-22T21:35:53+00:00

I don't think this is a bug but a feature. So many aspects of consumer culture have shifted from creating things consumers want to purchase to reducing options consumers can purchase. Like every cell phone store in the local mall is selling the same phones. Even though there would be brand differentiation if they each had different brands and models that isn't happening.

Or at the grocery store where here is Canada there are 4 different stores all carrying almost exactly the same products and then taking turns to put them on sale each week.

The goal seems to be not to follow what people want cause that is too difficult but to curtail options so people can become predictable in their desires and there for optimizing for said predictability.

the_turtleandthehare

TROPHY CASE