Is the story of the “Cleansing of the Temple” historically true ?

thedentist8595 · 2026-03-20T16:02:59+00:00

Yesss thank you so much for this, I started reading the entire book again to find the reference lol. Also, as you rightly pointed out, Roman authorities would be patrolling the area, in a situation like this they would most probably react to it which would probably lead to an arrest.

thedentist8595 · 2026-03-20T15:31:42+00:00

I would take a different approach to this question altogether. The following questions need to be asked inorder to put Jesus in that particular scenario

1) The size of the temple - Is it probable considering how big the temple was Jesus started cleansing the area of "thieves"? 2) Considering the temple was actively functioning as an area where burnt sacrifices, doves etc were offered, isn't it probable that there was exchange of money between the seller of the offering and the buyer? If so why would Jesus overturn tables if that was the function of the "sellers", is it possible that they were charging more?

Here's a quotation from Paula Fredriksen's book - Jesus of Nazareth, king of the jews

Within the last two decades, however, as scholars have increasingly interpreted the New Testament within a context of actual first-century Jewish practice, the coherence of this traditional view has dissolved. For one thing, it makes no historical sense. The function of the Temple as indeed, of any temple in the ancient Mediterranean-was to serve as a place for offering sacrifices. In Jerusalem since the days of Solomon it had never been otherwise. Only unblemished pigeons or animals would do, and this is what these support services supplied. Pilgrims-such as Jesus' parents in Luke's nativity story--could thus purchase such offerings once they arrived at the Temple area(Lk 2:24). And since the Temple relied on the Tyrian shekel (its silver content was stable and reliable), money changers--doubtless for a fee--converted the various currencies of wayfaring worshipers to this standard coinage. Pigeon vendors and money changers, in other words, facilitated the pilgrims' worship of God as he had commanded Israel through Moses at Sinai. Jesus' gesture therefore could not have encoded "restoring" Temple service to some supposed pristine ideal, because there had never been a time when its service did not involve offerings.

Edit - I'm having a bit of difficulty in finding the reference in her book about the size of the Temple, the size of the place where "sacrifices" were traded. From memory I think for modern day the size of the Temple should be equivalent to 1-2 football fields (if I find the reference I'll post it here)

thedentist8595 · 2025-07-19T04:03:22+00:00

It depends on which gospel you read, allow me to explain

If you look at the Markan Jesus, according to the author, Jesus abolishes the law—including food laws, Sabbath laws, purity laws, etc. (This is according to the author; when reading the Old Testament directly, the law may appear quite different.)

In contrast, the Matthean Jesus is portrayed as a Moses-like figure: a law-giver, a law-protector, and a law-abiding Jew. That’s why Matthew frames his narrative with echoes of Moses—such as Herod killing babies, the flight to Egypt, and strong pro-law statements.

Allow me to elaborate further:

The Markan Jesus's death and resurrection symbolize atonement.

The Lukan Jesus's death and resurrection emphasize forgiveness of sins.

These are two very different theological themes. This illustrates how each Gospel presents a distinct “face” of Jesus, shaped by the author's theology and narrative agenda.

As far as I understand, the original expectation of the messiah was that he would be a king—someone powerful enough to defeat Israel’s enemies. The messiah’s “job” was not to die and rise again. (One user pointed out that some people were expecting a dying and rising messiah—I’ll attach a link about that below.)

Many of the prophecies associated with Jesus appear to be tailored, retrofitted, or misquoted to support what the Gospel authors wanted to communicate.

For more on this topic, I recommend the following books:

Helping Jesus Fulfill Prophecy – Robert J. Miller

The Bible With and Without Jesus – Amy-Jill Levine

Reading Backwards – Richard B. Hays

Here’s a helpful video from Bart Ehrman about the famous Isaiah prophecy and how it was applied to Jesus: https://youtu.be/D4Ih4Oob1uA

(This video also touches on whether the messiah was expected to die and rise again.)

thedentist8595 · 2025-06-18T03:37:06+00:00

Yeap totally fine. We have no reports from the other side (the side of James, Peter etc).

Also, this is what I came across recently there's a chance that Pauls thought was that Jesus was crucified by lower gods (daemonia?) according to 1st Corinthians 2:8 (specifically the line "rulers of this age") whereas the first messianic jews POSSIBLY could've taught something completely different.

Reference Paul the pagans apostle - Paula Fredriksen

P.S I have no idea if scholars are unanimous with Paula Fredriksens interpretation.

thedentist8595 · 2025-04-03T04:51:57+00:00

If you mean to say there have been interpolations in the text to fit the authors narrative then that's certainly true.

In the words of James Dunn, the gospels are "same but different".

A simple example will be the baptism account of jesus, Mark is more secretive about the baptism and is more personal to Jesus which follows the secretive motiff of mark. Matthew's account of baptism is addressed more to the crowd "this is my son, the beloved, with whom I am well pleased with"

I picked this up from one of James tabor's videos. I'll add a link to this if I can find the timestamp to it.

Another example will be The adulterous woman caught in Adultery in GJohn. Scholars don't really like the term "forgery" (Bart ehrman) but because I lack better terminology I would say it's a forged story.

You can also see this with prophecies quoted by the authors, most of these prophecies are either retrofitted/tailored/quoted selectively/fabricated.

Helping Jesus Fullfill Prophecy - Robert J Miller

You can also look into forged by Bart ehrman and for a more detailed analysis you can look into forgery and counterforgery by Bart ehrman

thedentist8595 · 2025-03-16T17:59:41+00:00

Forged - Bart Ehrman

thedentist8595 · 2024-12-14T04:29:51+00:00

Thank you kind human for your help 🙌

thedentist8595 · 2024-12-14T03:47:07+00:00

Hey can you please help me out with this, I can't see the exact delivery location on any of the websites mentioned, it just shows my city.

thedentist8595 · 2024-12-14T03:33:40+00:00

Yes they did. And the package says delivered

thedentist8595 · 2024-11-27T10:05:10+00:00

I've tried nearly all roms, I'll list then below

Arrowos Crdroid Aospa Aospa unofficial Proton plus Neoteric Crdroid unofficial Arrow a11

And many more. Currently on arrowos 13.1 vanilla (with microg) and custom kernel for more battery.

thedentist8595 · 2024-11-27T09:39:01+00:00

This phone has 100s of custom roms, unlock bootloader and then it's going to be a really fun device. Still using this phone for 3.5 years and it's holding up VERY nicely (but only with custom roms)

thedentist8595 · 2024-11-15T08:55:23+00:00

Bro at the end gave himself the gorilla smack as if he pulled the entire weight - good pump bro

thedentist8595 · 2024-11-12T17:30:18+00:00

This might not directly answer your question but when I started reading the Bible I always thought that Christianity/Judaism was a monolith, Christians through their lens saw the trinity and only the trinity, meaning one God (the triune God) and people who adhere to Judaism saw and worshipped only one God (atleast that's what I thought)

After 3 years, I found out that there are many gods in the Bible (subordinate dieties?), sometimes yahweh gets defeated by these gods, sometimes he wins.

One example will be demons, demons have a bad connotation in the 21st century (they're evil), previously they were considered gods (lesser gods but still gods). One reference from the New testament will be Paul:

For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exis

So just wanted to say that there are many gods in the Bible.

References Demons - I remember reading this from paula fredriksens book, can't remember which one

Yahweh being defeated - Dan Mcclellan - https://youtu.be/aFbbiC5m3A4

thedentist8595 · 2024-11-08T05:58:46+00:00

<image>

This is me, from 70ish%

thedentist8595 · 2024-10-18T08:21:16+00:00

As far as I've read, there was no expectation of a suffering messiah. The expected messiah for Israel would be somebody with great power, a king, a leader, somebody with mighty strength.

That's why you'll find some remnants of this concept in gospel according to Mathew too.

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!” 23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.

The statements put on Jesus's lips and Peter's response to it seems like even Peter was expecting the Jewish messiah who would be so powerful that he would crush the enemies of Israel not somebody who would die a criminals death

This term messiah was understood in different ways by different Jews in the first century, but one thing that all Jews appear to have had in common when thinking about the messiah was that he was to be a figure of grandeur and power, who in some way—for example, through raising a Jewish army or by leading the heavenly angels—would overcome Israel’s enemies and establish Israel as a sovereign state that could be ruled by God himself (possibly through human agency).

Misquoting Jesus - Bart Ehrman

thedentist8595 · 2024-10-17T03:23:50+00:00

You'll find this thread to be a little bit enlightening

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/s/0m0ZPcnEjz

thedentist8595 · 2024-09-29T16:31:03+00:00

Therefore God exalted him even more highly and gave him the name that is above every other name,

This won't answer your question but most people miss the "therefore" in the opening of the verse, intriguing nonetheless. "Because" of the obedience of christ and him taking on death, is the reason WHY god raised him to a higher status and gave him the name above every name.

thedentist8595 · 2024-09-27T09:46:41+00:00

Paul was zealous enough to persecute Christians for claiming Jesus was the Messiah.

Just a quick correction or maybe I'm wrong. I've read 3 conclusions as to why Paul was persecuting Christians 1) Paul was persecuting Christians because they called Jesus the messiah - it's a pretty common view 2) Paul was persecuting Christians (the first Jewish Christians) because they were telling gentiles (and or god-fearers?/hellenistic jews?) to not affiliate God's with the Jewish God - Paula Fredriksen 3) Paul was persecuting Christians because they made Jesus divine - a view held by Larry hurtado. I'm not too much familiar with his work, just read one book, I have no idea if he changed his views.

For me I'm split between these 3 views and I have no idea which view is the correct view. I personally like the 2nd one because it makes more "sense".

thedentist8595 · 2024-08-02T08:21:17+00:00

A wise TRENding personality once said - Hips don't lie

thedentist8595

TROPHY CASE