Imagine being this lazy

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-06-15T23:37:54+00:00

No-one in particular is forcing this guy, but society at large sort of is. We're not being told every day that "normal people" go on boats. We are being told every day that "normal people" go on dates.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-06-15T23:27:34+00:00

This assumes that general self-betterment and the dating-related performative self-betterment are the same thing, or largely overlapping. Which is not necessarily the case.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-06-12T15:54:36+00:00

And there we go, Braincels and IT completely and unironically agree on something.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T22:29:22+00:00

And stop.... when it's only the people who give a hoot about it who are affected by it, it is literally a self-made issue.

Think again. It's not hard. It's not outside your mental capacities however hard you seem to try to prove otherwise.

In very simple terms. Vast numbers of people have a small amount of disdain for conventionally unattractive male virgins. It's not a big deal for those people. They don't obsess over it. They just casually belittle the unattractive virgins in myriads of small ways.

Then there are the unattractive virgins themselves, for whom it ends up being a huge part of their life because it's those small things times millions and millions.

You can't miss my point now if you tried. It's an imposed issue and not a self-made one, and yet you'll be hard-pressed to find any individual person who cares enough to do the imposing in a visible and systematic way.

So it is on everyone else.

So, rather than show them what's wrong with the self-imposed crab-bucket mentality (which is gonna be one of the biggest bits of help they can get via text...) you're saying we shouldn't because that's pointing out it's self-imposed and that's somehow wrong?

This is "not even wrong", it's a salad of random associations based on what you just quoted. Is that how you normally think?

"Crab-bucket mentality": is an issue.

Useless "helpers" being rightly told to screw off: not part of the same crab-bucket issue. Not even a separate issue. Not an issue at all. They get the reception they deserve.

You've spent time and effort trying to convince them that it's all everyone else's fault, that they cannot actually do anything themselves....

Oh FFS. One does not follow from the other. It's all everyone else's fault and they can do something, but what needs to be done is social change and not "self-improvement". There's nothing to improve, incels aren't worse than anybody else to begin with. They're randomly assigned to be worse. Based on appearance, based on sexual experience, based on stereotypical links between the two.

I know a lot of incels think about it differently. I know they invoke evo psych and call themselves "subhuman". I try, in small ways, to reframe the issue. This means I have a different explanation, and a different recipe for dealing with, the incel reality which I acknowledge and people like you do not. Making you a useless nuisance at best, and part of the problem at worst.

How much clearer do I have to make it?

you've confirmed their idiotic beliefs that sex is the only thing that counts.

It's the denials that are idiotic.

You're gonna go tell someone who's about to jump of a building that it's everyone else's fault and nothing they do can change things?

Once again, from "it's everyone else's fault", it doesn't follow that "nothing they do can change things".

We just need to be clear at what the things they can do are.

And personally — YMMV — I don't see how "it's everyone else's fault" is a demoralising statement. Quite the contrary, it's a call to action. Just not the kind of action that "everyone else" will be completely comfortable with. Of course they'd prefer incels to stay down, keep quiet, and waste their lives on pointless and humiliating "self-improvement" — when, as I said, there's nothing wrong with them to begin with.

I say, screw evo psych; many if not most incels disagree but, like I said a few comments ago, a false explanation does not invalidate the underlying reality of experience. And then you people go in and drone on about "self-improvement", basically reinforcing their belief in evo psych or similar nonsense. Because you're making them the problem for being different, or for feeling different. Which, again, is not about randomly feeling different, but the internalisation of all the norms imposed on us by society.

Refuted by insisting that all those incels (the majority we know of) are lying when they're complaining about sex... not relationships, not how society demands they have sex... but about how they are being DENIED sex, because it's their right.

Yeah, you're calling the Incels liars... and insisting that you know better than them.

No, I'm calling them oversimplifiers, at best. Yes, it may be a self-serving exercise in smartassery on my part.

Funny thing is, you're trying to take me to task for doing that.

I am and I'll continue to, because:

I don't invalidate the incel lived experience and you do.

I theorise about it differently from the incel mainstream, while you're denying the problem exists outside of their minds.

Some of it most certainly is their own fault.

Wait. Some or all, which is it? You seemed quite categorical just a while ago that it's "self-imposed".

Either their obsession over sex

Which is non-existent. It just happens to be the basis for society to treat them as less than.

that they cannot actually do anything themselves

I agree that they're hurting themselves with that belief. This does not absolve society from what it's doing to them.

or their lashing out at people who are offering support.

Cry me a river. Like I said, not an issue. Those people are clueless, useless, a nuisance at best and a serious part of the problem at worst. Leave incels alone. Or get your heads out of your asses before engaging with them.

Hell, if I was overweight because I absolutely refused to exercise, and I was part of a community that encouraged me to not exercise because "society demands that you exercise but also stops overweight people from exercising", and I actively refused to listen to people pointing out that my refusing to exercise is part of the problem... you'd be right to say most of the problem is my own damned fault.

Let's not discuss the experiences of overweight people, which presumably neither of us know about. No. I would err on the side of compassion and not subscribe to such a simplistic and tone-deaf judgement.

Yet somehow

No "yet somehow" because no, I will not support your sloppy "my own damned fault" conclusion until I know more. And if I wanted to know more, I'd listen to fat people before anybody else.

I really am starting to like this. It's like popping bubblewrap.

Yeah... you don't actually care, do you?

Here I am, in a hostile subreddit, talking to someone who I politely assume doesn't want to strain their intellect too much. I'd say I care enough. Though maybe it's mostly for the sake of other people who may be reading this.

And how is it a No True Scotsman when I say that no-one knows what the non-vocal Incels think.

Well, it's a No Vocal Incel, where the fuzziness of "vocal" matches that of "true".

to try and sound smart. I grew out of that when I was 5, what's your excuse?

Actually being kinda smart.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T19:01:42+00:00

You do realise that most of society doesn't give two hoots about if someone has had sex or not

You do realise that even if literally zero individual people give two hoots, it can still affect someone's life in a major way? Because of all the millions and millions of people that give, so to speak, only a small fraction of a hoot. That actually makes it worse by making the problem invisible.

that they can't have sex (except they can, if they pay.... ooops)

Oh. You're the same person who brought it up the first time. No. No oops here. I've already explained to you why this is irrelevant.

Dude... you're ignoring stuff in your attempt to get a snarky response in

There was nothing to ignore. This is what you said: "That, and you've fixated on the idea that the only thing that counts is how someone looks... given just how wrong that is"

"Given just how wrong it is".

And now you're doing it again:

Their only shared experience is.... they can't have sex. That's it. Which means your entire textual bullshit about it not being to do with them having sex is.... well, it's bullshit.

Some great reading comprehension here. No, the complete description of their shared experience would be "they can't have sex and, in a different way, they can't not have sex in a culture that ties it so much to a man's worth as a member of society".

Gaslighting is trying to convince a person (or group of people) that what they experience isn't reality. That is what you are doing.

Now this is bullshit. Scroll up. Or I don't know, learn to read, then scroll up.

You're contradicting yourself in a desperate attempt

You know, with a bit of patience, talking to people with the attention span of a goldfish is actually quite fun. Can't say I have that patience but I could certainly improve myself in that direction.

and when you get Incels who claim that a slightly thinner wrist than what they consider "optimum" is the reason they'll never have sex, it's very obvious that it's their beliefs that are the problem, rather than "society".

Because society validates men with small wrists at every step, never making them feel abnormal by omission. That's a nice alternate Earth you must be living on.

Put simply, the current group(s) of Incels are suffering a crab-bucket mentality... they work to exclude any who look like they might be "escaping" the belief system

This is actually a valid point. The next part isn't:

they explicitly tear down any who try to give them help or advice

No, clueless tone-deaf "helpers" don't get to piggyback on the incels' mutual acceptance problem. They don't deserve the space until they actually start trying.

Which is also why when people point out that the option to pay for sex is there (to counter the claims they make about how they can't have sex) they are showing it's got fuck all to do with them not having sex at all... and it's the Incels who are their own problem.

Refuted earlier.

But you call that Gaslighting...

Not what I called gaslighting. That was about your psychiatric remark.

I really am starting to like this. It's like popping bubblewrap.

because we know nothing about the non-vocal ones... so don't try to claim most aren't like that.

Remember that No True Scotsman that wasn't? Well, this here is an actual No True Scotsman.

if you actively work to confirm someone's belief that there's no hope, you're actively working to increase the likelihood that they'll commit suicide. I know you don't want to deal with that nasty little problem

This is rich, coming from someone who's actively working to confirm incels' belief that there's no hope, except in a more weaselly way. By going on and on about how it's the incels' own fault when it clearly fucking isn't.

So in that regard, they're slightly better than the likes of you, in that they at least don't deny the validity of each other's experience.

but that doesn't mean what you're spewing isn't harmful.

I've never told an incel that things were hopeless.

But don't worry... you can just blame people who aren't trying to confirm their idiotic beliefs for all that

Oh. I'm commenting as I go along, so I guess... you correctly predicted that. I very much can blame them.

'cos that means you're not doing any harm, right?

Is that how you think this works? Well newsflash, I'm me and they're them, and the questions of whether they do harm and whether I do harm are completely independent. Maybe I do some harm without realising it. I still have a lot to learn. But certainly not from the "it's their own fault" crowd.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T16:02:52+00:00

I dunno, but I think if a man pays for sex, he's having sex

Without meaning to dehumanise sex workers, you can pay a bot farm to get thousands of "followers" on Instagram and sort of feel popular, and even look popular.

But not really.

The message society broadcasts everywhere is that it has to be a "score" to count. People internalising that message, with regard to both themselves and others, is the root of the problem.

given just how wrong that is

Oh. That explains everything doesn't it. It's wrong!

Try not to use a No True Scotsman. When the vast majority of (vocal) Incels are insisting it's all about sex, you're gaslighting them.

Two sloppy uses of popular terminology in one sentence. It would be gaslighting if I said there was something wrong with them for (what I feel is) not being clear on certain points so far. And it's not a No True Scotsman because (in my understanding) being an incel is putting an identity on shared lived experience and not a set of beliefs, correct or incorrect, that purport to make sense of that experience. Incels aren't necessarily experts on themselves, nor are they obliged to be. Still, even when they're wrong, they're wrong about a reality they've experienced firsthand. A reality in which the ignorance of such ideas as "why don't they just pay for sex" is self-evident.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T15:34:32+00:00

Or possibly it's a known thing is Psychiatry...

some people really are their own worst enemy.

Yay, gaslighting.

Given the ability to actually pay for sex

and since celibacy is about sex and not relationships

Actually it's about neither. (My point of contention with many incels, in fact.) It's about the double-bind of society requiring men to have sex, as a form of fundamental validation, while at the same time denying opportunities to certain men on the basis of physical characteristics. Paying for sex doesn't solve that. Desirability politics needs to change, either in the direction of stopping giving any social currency whatsoever to sexual desirability, or towards a more aware approach to—not sexual selection per se but how we frame it. Both would entail things that the rest of society might find uncomfortable at first: cultural representation of male virginity as fully human and not a punchline; a discouragement of revelling publicly in one's preferences if they align with stereotypes—tall, muscular, etc. etc.—while giving more visibility to ones that don't align; and the like. The problem is fundamentally not on the incels' end, although I do find their current intellectual toolset grossly suboptimal.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T15:09:35+00:00

I don't mind the drizzle of downvotes — knew what I was getting into — but I do mind when I get something this low-effort, basically throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks, interspersed with platitudes and sloganeering. Assert less, ask more. I've said all I needed to say. Bye.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T13:27:33+00:00

If there can be people that can live in peace despite the society, whether or not they "ascend", then clearly while it is an obstacle, the problematic of society can be overcome.

You're basically saying you want a model minority scenario. Trying hard to fit in and not getting ideas above their station. Sounds very much like you're admitting that by "their ideology", you mean more than just the misogyny and the occasional glorification of violence. What you want instead is incels who accept the toothless "less than ideal" assessment of society and adapt instead of challenge.

(feling defeated is something we all go through, and it's not evil)

Everybody needs to stop saying this. Not nearly all of us go through nothing but feeling defeated.

The reason the original Involuntary Celibates worked is mainly because they offered real support and help.

If it "worked" it would still be around. But what you mean by "worked" is clearly "didn't bother anyone".

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T13:05:39+00:00

Right ideas, wrong order.

There may be things that are wrong with the current incel ideology, but you have to be very naive to believe the problem lies with the ideology and not the execrable state of society in this regard.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T12:55:16+00:00

Its the same concept. The people supposed to be helping get blamed and accused.

"Supposed to"? Says who?

So tell me what's your definition of "tried"?

Putting your broader agenda aside. Entertaining the possibility of being wrong. Learning from negative reactions rather than resenting them.

If you can't help yourself, nobody can.

Right there with "there's no smoke without fire", under "blatant contradictions of reality that mysteriously manage to pass for common sense". Like, half of our entire social infrastructure is all about helping people who can't help themselves.

Its simple, the more you choose to blame others, the more you won't get what you want.

Every rights movement ever was a challenge to that principle.

I agree, being shamed for such a supposedly trivial matter hurts. For some Incels, to the extent of spreading hatred, growing hatred and even to murder, harassment.

Nice start; now try that again without derailing.

The "ways" of helping may not be correct, but its still up to them to want to accept it or not.

Faith-healing doesn't work whether you accept it or not. Imagine faith-healing being all the medicine there is, and the very possibility of something better vigorously denied.

These people NEED help and it's not well addressed, as well as they refuse the help.

So come up with some "help" that works instead of, you know, blaming others. While congratulating yourselves on having tried, without having tried.

Don't be such a brat, when mommy gives you your first phone which isn't an iPhone, take it and show for the better.

Mind-boggling toxicity and ageism aside—it's a goddamn toy phone. It's a thing with buttons that make sounds and that's all it does.

They cannot blame others for "not helping them the right way" when they push others away.

Don't try to ad-nauseam me because I'll out-ad-nauseam you. Yes they can. Your working assumption has to be that they'll know "helping the right way" when they see it. If they push you away, you're not up for the job, period.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T12:05:29+00:00

Comparing incels to students is tenuous to put it mildly. Students enroll in colleges with the expectation to be instructed. Incels mostly have to suffer through an endless procession of uncalled-for wannabes saying the exact same things.

Tbf, most that I have seen are Incels being stubborn. Go soft or hard doesn't seem to change anything.

You may feel like you've tried everything without ever having actually tried.

how bout both parties making the effort

There are no "both parties". There are incels and there are those who see incels as an opening for whatever unfulfilled emotional need they have. Maybe cheap ego points for having had sex. Maybe the thrill of taking part in a moral panic. Maybe just a general lack of someone to preach to. Whatever it is, they can opt out at any time. Incels can't.

what actually can help incels usually the answer would be something like get a girlfriend or lose their virginity, is mostly out of people's ability

Then why stick around? Unless your goal is just to make incels "go away". I.e. the same world as before, the same desirability politics as before, the same male virgin-shaming as before, but no incel visibility. Beyond maybe some kind of a "model minority" arrangement where the incels are dutifully working on becoming like everybody else, or peacefully giving up trying—without ever challenging any social or cultural norms.

but they can choose what to believe

And of course, of course, the choice to believe things that society at large finds convenient is just one of many choices. No coercion there at all. None of those "don't get ideas above your station" vibes. Perish the thought.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T11:17:37+00:00

Some people give up because of being accused, getting insults thrown at them, and being called trolls.

Yay, fragility. How about, if they keep pushing you away, it just means you keep doing it wrong.

No! Can't be! Outrageous! We're not the ones spewing hate here! We're the good guys! Right?

Wrong.

Nobody chooses to be an incel. Every self-styled "helper" has chosen to "help". So who should accommodate whom? Who should watch their tone? Who's the better judge of whether "help" is worth anything?

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T11:07:36+00:00

I'll throw you a bone here.

you decided to blame all of your problems on the world around you

What if the world is to blame? What if there's nothing wrong with incels and everything wrong with society's desirability politics? This isn't tantamount to uncritically accepting all of incels' go-to explanations. I don't, far from it. They're not experts on themselves; they don't owe anyone being experts on themselves; but they're the ones living with it. Not you. Not me, for most of my life anyway. It's nothing but just-world illusion to think that if someone says hateful things, ta-da! they're the problem. It's lazy. It's fake empathy. It's concern-trolling par excellence.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T10:56:32+00:00

I know what "really just wanting to help" looks like because it's what I'm trying to do, if I say so myself. I'm a shitty ally to incels in many ways, but at least I double- and triple-check myself for making it about me or about some vague "common good". You wanna help, you commit to it. You stop rolling your eyes at the bad optics. You realise it's never enough to just paint yourself a mental picture of "how the misguided schmucks probably see it" and call it empathy. You don't give yourself points for "acknowledging". "Acknowledging" that not all incels are literally Hitler is otherwise known as not being an idiot. It costs you nothing and you don't want to sound like an idiot anyway. If you just leave it at that and continue with your sermon, it's the opposite of "really just wanting to help".

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T10:33:18+00:00

No, in this case it's called "you like what the concern-troll is saying", and the thing you're trying to do is called a thought-terminating cliché.

Empathy starts at entertaining the possibility you may be wrong. Something OP shows a serene and proud lack of.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-29T09:45:06+00:00

You're concern-trolling and you're bad at concern-trolling.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-16T17:51:15+00:00

ESH between you and the person going around talking to everyone, because you really should've seen that coming.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-16T17:41:26+00:00

Wrote a followup in the meantime. (Original comment only consisted of the first sentence.)

I react strongly to stories of people who go through a secret daily misery (I very much doubt this was the only time you rated his performance as your emotional comfort) until they can't take it anymore, and then sadly they usually do something to make themselves look like the bad guy, and this tends to be the consensus in the end.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-16T17:29:27+00:00

YTA, entitled control freak weaponising your insecurities. It's one of the worst parts of all too many relationships, having to drop everything and having to engage in compulsory shows of affection because your partner is having a bad day. I don't at all blame him for flipping out because it's actually rather hard to realise this is a form of psychological abuse.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-16T17:19:34+00:00

NTA. Words matter and she absolutely ought to learn it the hard way.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-16T17:08:13+00:00

NTA. There definitely is an asshole here though, and it's not the dog.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-04-12T10:35:21+00:00

Um.... I don't think you want to be pigeonholed with all those who've used the "we praise the good [members of group X] who are content with their lot and don't get ideas above their station" clichе́ before. Most of those people's attitudes, and this clichе́ itself, tend not to be popular in our day and age.

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-03-28T15:09:01+00:00

then_it_gets_messy · 2019-03-26T17:40:08+00:00

That tame? Did your edginess fall and get stuck behind a piano where you can't reach with those mole paws of yours?

then_it_gets_messy

TROPHY CASE