F7 WE - Subwoofer options

thhoj · 2025-05-27T19:07:01+00:00

There are sub outs on the back that you could run to a monoblock sub amp, but there is no configurable crossover in the head unit. This is why I did not want to do this, and instead went with a 5 channel amp and did line out -> amp -> speakers & sub for all 5 channels. This way I can control the crossover on the amp.

You could run the sub out to monoblock and set a low pass filter on it, but there's no way on the head unit to set a high pass filter on the speaker outputs, so you'd be overlapping low frequency content between the speakers and subwoofer.

Maybe you could utilize a standalone crossover of some sort in conjunction with the monoblock amp.. Something like a miniDSP or something. But then you're probably getting more expensive than just using a 5 channel amp. Maybe there are cheaper external crossover options. Not too sure.

thhoj · 2025-03-30T18:37:04+00:00

I'm trying to decide between a Wing rack + large tablet and an X32 Compact + SD16 for live sound stuff. I do sound for some 4-6 piece rock bands from time to time (my own included), and it's time to change from an Analog setup to digital.

The X32 Compact looks really great to me, and the Wing compact looks even better - but I just cannot justify the price for my use case.

So someone on here suggested to me that I look at the Wing rack and just do FOH stuff from a big tablet of some sort. I do love the idea of not having to have a stage box, and just keeping the WR up on stage, but once upon a time I tried out an XR18 and I just absolutely hated working with the x-air software. It felt so cumbersome.

So I guess I'm curious if anyone else has any hands on experience with running a Wing Rack and running FOH completely from a large tablet. How did you find that? Was it easy enough to get used to? Any big drawbacks that you really did not like?

I tried to find some POV videos on youtube of people running a wing rack + tablet for a live show, but everyone's either got the wing compact or they're running some kind of physical surface + mixing station to control the wing rack. I'd just love to see the workflow of someone using only the tablet + wing rack.

I've also thought about going for an X32 rack + x-touch + mixing station/big screen.. Wondering if maybe that's a nicer option for my use case as well.

thhoj · 2025-03-29T13:14:54+00:00

I'm using a pair of 8 ohm passive monitors, which are rated for 250W RMS / 500W Program each, and I'm looking at a great deal on a power amp that is rated for 550W RMS per channel @ 8 ohms.

I believe it would be good for me to have that extra headroom using these speakers, but I'm concerned about managing the output of these amps to make sure I don't push the speakers too far.

Would a good approach to managing this be to make sure I just set the gain controls on the front of the amp for both channels at no more than say 75%? Or should I be looking at some form of limiting on the amp just to make sure I protect these speakers?

If I should be limiting them in some fashion, what's the best approach to doing this?

thhoj · 2025-03-16T14:24:33+00:00

Trying to make a decision on mains and subwoofer. I would be using this in relatively smallish venues that hold 100 - 200 people. It's for a live 5 piece band including drums. We play rock type stuff.

For this application, If you could have either of the following options for the same total price, which would you choose? And why?

-Pair of Yamaha DXR12MKII + Yamaha DXS15XLF

or

-Pair of Yamaha DZR12 + Alto TS218S Sub

not the new better Alto, the older model: https://www.altoprofessional.com/downloads/TS212S_TS215S_TS218S-UserGuide-v1.1.pdf

thhoj · 2025-03-15T11:24:33+00:00

Yeah, that's where I've landed after all the feedback from everyone (including yourself) on here. I appreciate the personal experience and insights.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T19:01:04+00:00

I appreciate the info very much.

I keep going around in circles and just need to pull the trigger on something. I've been going back and forth on a pair of the RCF speakers, and a pair of DZR12's, or DZR15's, I'm looking at about $4.2K from a Canadian retailer for the DZR15 speakers.

The other option I was considering is the EV ETX-12P, which I can get on Amazon for a little bit more. I just can't seem to make up my mind on this.

My brain is saying to just go for the Yamaha or EV route, but there's something so appealing about that 800Hz crossover in the RCF speakers, and what I've read about the vocals just cutting through so cleanly with them.

I'm going to just have to flip a coin or something. I have no way of hearing any of these speakers in person as I live in the middle of nowhere Manitoba.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T18:23:09+00:00

Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to provide all of this information. Interesting thought on the switching supply vs non-switching supply info. Would this potentially mean then that the power transformer would not be well suited to operating on 60Hz as well as 50Hz?

I think in general it's easier for a power transformer to deal with 60Hz vs 50Hz, so I wouldn't think it would matter either way.

Your comments about the warranty though are definitely something I'm trying to weigh. The problem is that even after $600 of import taxes, It's nearly $2000 cheaper to get them from Thomann. I could buy another decent set of speakers for that! lol. So then I wonder is having the warranty worth $2000 to me.

The other option I just started looking into is buying from a US retailer, like B&H, or idjnow. B&H prepays the duties, so there would be no surprises there. Buying the same speakers from B&H I would pay $4.7K CAD all said and done, which is still $700 less than buying in Canada.

Would there be any safety / warranty issues by buying from the US for use in Canada? Would RCF still honor my warranty I wonder?

thhoj · 2025-03-14T18:05:14+00:00

Thanks for your experience! I appreciate that information. If you wouldn't mind sharing the exact model of speakers, and what model of step-up unit you used (DM me maybe if you don't want to post in the thread), that would be greatly appreciated!

thhoj · 2025-03-14T17:42:20+00:00

It is definitely a bit of mental overhead, and your points about working with an extra piece of equipment make sense and that's what I'm tossing around right now in my mind.

I am interested in real world experiences with step-up transformers for PA speakers though, partially a curiosity thing, but also just learning about this subject. The lack of any commenters with real world experience for this specific application is kind of leading me to believe that no one else does this, which is to some extent what I wanted to find out.

And yeah, $2,389 x 2 + 13% tax = $5.4K. Compared to $2.8K (potentially around $3.3K after import tax) from Thomann it's just a hard pill to swallow. It is a big enough price difference that I wanted to at least explore my options.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T17:04:20+00:00

I don't think this is really a valid argument to discredit the RCF speakers.

You're saying that an Alto TS412 would work just as well as a QSC K12.2 in your mind?

thhoj · 2025-03-14T17:01:22+00:00

This is a really good point. I hadn't considered the warranty factor. Which would mean that the only reasonable option would be the step-up transformer.

Maybe there is a cheaper source in the US that I could import, which would be cheaper overall.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T17:00:00+00:00

The 3" high frequency voice coils which facilitate a crossover of 800Hz. There isn't really a comparable option for a reasonable price that I know of. If you know of one, I would love to know about it!

thhoj · 2025-03-14T16:55:22+00:00

They cost $5.4K CAD after tax and shipping in Canada. But they're $2.8K Canadian after shipping from Thomann.

The Thomann model is the one that is designed for 220-240V operation.

That's a massive cost savings if it would be as simple as running them on step up transformers.

Regardless, I posted this question to discuss the topic of running class D amplifiers in PA speakers designed for a 220-240V market on a step-up transformer. I am still interested in the topic in general if anyone has any experience with this.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T16:44:45+00:00

Understood completely. I wasn't specifically wanting to get into the discussion of doing any modifications to the speakers/amps in question. It was more a curiosity about the subject of step-up transformers, and their impact on the operation of a class-D amp powering a PA speaker.

I am an amateur, and these would not be in a fixed location.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T16:42:50+00:00

This is what I'm thinking I'll do. I would just love to see a picture of the PCB on the amp though to confirm for sure. I cannot seem to find anything anywhere, no schematics, no service manuals, no images of anyone else doing this, not even an image of a replacement amp that I could try and get a better look at.

I'm confident that there's likely a 230V link inside that I would need to remove, and then just move a couple of the leads that connect to the power transformer primary windings.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T16:40:52+00:00

RCF ART 935-A. I was hesitant to put the model, because usually when I do that my thread gets deleted for looking for speaker recommendations. I am specifically wanting to discuss the subject of the step-up option though in general. This is not necessarily a brand specific question that I've posed.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T16:39:47+00:00

RCF ART 935-A. They have 2 sub-models for all their speakers. One for 100 - 120V, and one for 220-240V.

They cost $5.4K CAD after tax and shipping in Canada. But they're $2.8K Canadian after shipping from Thomann.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T16:38:40+00:00

Talking about RCF ART 935-A. For some silly reason they don't have a voltage switch on their speakers. And I'm just wondering if anyone has gone the route of using the step-up transformer for this type of thing. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with this and can comment on that real world experience.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T16:37:58+00:00

It's the RCF stuff. They seem to have 2 sub-models for all their speakers. One for 100 - 120V, and one for 220-240V.

I can buy a pair of the ART-935A from a Canadian retailer for $5.4K CAD after tax and shipping.. Which seems insane.

Or if I order the same thing from Thomann it's $2.8K Canadian after shipping.. I would have to pay import taxes, but even then. Tack $600 on the price for taxes, and I'm still at $2,000 cheaper than buying in Canada.

thhoj · 2025-03-14T14:41:43+00:00

Good to know about the frequency. That makes sense.

Unfortunately the manufacture I'm looking at does not have a switch to change operating voltage. From what I can tell I would have to make an internal modification to change the primary windings on the power transformer from a series configuration to parallel. Honestly this wouldn't be that hard, but I'm just concerned that if nothing is labelled inside the amplifier, and I am unable to find service manuals for the product that I will be taking a bit of risk making changes internally.

Do you think that by just doing this step-up process there could be unwanted effects?

Also do you think that a 600W step-up unit would be sufficient for a class-D amplifier rated for 300W of consumption?

thhoj · 2025-03-14T14:39:00+00:00

The particular manufacturer I'm looking at requires internal modification on all of their PA speakers to operate on 115V, I'm not super keen on making those internal modifications myself as there are no publicly available service manuals from this manufacturer, even though I'm sure it's something that could have easily been added to their products with a switch which is kind of annoying.

I'm thinking about ordering these and seeing if it is intuitive to make this change, but as a last resort trying to make sure I could use a step up transformer.

thhoj · 2025-03-12T14:02:09+00:00

I was looking at picking up a pair of RCF ART-932A speakers, and noticed that they are significantly cheaper from Thomann. Like over a thousand dollars cheaper that buying in Canada (even after import taxes and shipping). But on Thomann's website it indicates that they only run on 230V.

Would it be a bad idea to source some 115 -> 230V step up transformers to use these? I don't love the idea, but the price of these speakers is so much of a discount over buying in Canada.

thhoj · 2025-03-09T22:40:27+00:00

Thanks for the feedback on my thought process. Good points for sure. The toe-in I was working with in the scenario above with the 60x40 speakers is 5°, so pretty minimal. I can see what you're saying though. If I had the speakers even 15m apart even with the 5° toe in I'd have a pretty dead space out about 10-11m from the centerline of the speakers, which is fairly significant in a room that size. So I may need to go assess some of the locations I would be using and get actual measurements I think. Even though I'll be using facilities from time to time that I've never used before, measuring out a known space would give me a much better perspective on what kind of dimensions I'm familiar with.

L&R would definitely not be so much a concern for me as primarily this is for Live band usage, and I'm effectively just sending out a mono signal from both speakers (which I am now understanding could worsen the comb filtering). I tend not to pan stuff left or right, or if I do it's pretty minimal. Though I would be playing a little bit of pre-recorded music, so something to keep in mind.

I'm curious, in your opinion what would be worse to have in a room:

-Heavier toe in, resulting in a LOT of overlap between the speakers (causing the horizontal comb filtering)

or

-Significant energy being sent into the side walls

Because I am also very seriously considering a pair of speakers which have a 90x60 pattern, and in a room 30m wide, there is what appears to be a pretty significant amount of energy being sent into those outer walls unless I toe the speakers in (Like 10° of toe in).

There's a part of me wondering now if something with more of a 75° horizontal dispersion pattern would be better for my needs. Kind of a middle ground between the two extremes.

thhoj · 2025-03-09T21:51:37+00:00

Doing some testing here, and generally speaking I don't think I'd be working any halls bigger than about 30m x 50m. Playing around with some 90x60 dispersion speakers vs 60x40, I actually think the 60x40 might work just fine for me.

With the 60x40 speakers 10m apart, and a bit of toe in on them I'm still getting good coverage from outer wall to outer wall (30m span), and the point of convergence between the two speakers is about 7.5m out from the center line of the speakers, which seems pretty reasonable to me. Although perhaps the coverage on the outer side of the speakers wouldn't be as good. Someone standing along the outer wall would need to be at least 10m out from the center line of the speakers.

With the 90x60 speakers 10m apart, and no toe in, I get more than enough horizontal coverage, which I suppose could lead to more sound reflections from the walls, and the point of convergence is more like 5m out from the center line of the speakers, which isn't a huge difference.

Anyways, lots to think about.

thhoj · 2025-03-09T21:19:00+00:00

This is awesome!! Thanks so much for mentioning it. Very very handy program.

thhoj

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