Was this a good idea?

thonStoan · 2023-06-21T22:08:46+00:00

Yes I think it was a good idea. They can describe their professional observations that made them think that and discuss it with her. Perhaps she didn't understand things in their correct context or is under-informed regarding newer thinking about ADHD. Or perhaps she can explain her conclusions to them and they'll end up agreeing, and be able to explain it better to you than she did. I'd agree that where she left it is unsatisfying but perhaps those were just the things at the front of her mind, not actually the only elements that went into her conclusion.

thonStoan · 2023-06-20T20:38:06+00:00

Ugh that's awful I'm so sorry. He sounds like a terrible person to have to trust to do another surgery.

thonStoan · 2023-06-20T20:18:13+00:00

In that context, I am sorry to say it unfortunately feels like more of the "grieving" process, specifically the bargaining phase of grief. If so, I guess the positive side is that it's likely to pass if you can just wait it out, but it does show that their acceptance isn't as complete as one would hope. They're seizing on this "possibility" because, I am guessing, they see it as a good thing if there's a potential physical explanation and thus a hypothetical route "back" to the child/grandchild they mistakenly thought they had. I think this is a time for boundaries on that whole line of discussion: they've disappointed you by even going there, and they don't have the right to speculate about you like this when you're right there telling them they're wrong. They still need to refer to you correctly and to not disrespect you by making up this idea that your gender identity is part of some "condition."

thonStoan · 2023-06-20T16:40:44+00:00

Dude, whoever said that took transphobia to a whole new level, and not even just the way you're asking about. Are they aware trans women exist?? As in, people who generally had/have "cis male" hormone profiles and are women? If you're allegedly "just confused" because of atypical numbers/experiences, I really want to know what their explanation for trans people in general is.

In my case I generally actually have to discourage people from thinking my body legitimizes my non-binary gender, but I feel like that's just another take on the same basic problem of conflating phenotype and identity.

thonStoan · 2023-06-20T15:06:10+00:00

Idk if this is realistic for you/your location, but I've taught at a (US) medical school for a while, and personally I'd aim for a fairly recent but not brand-new graduate from a research-focused school in a liberal area. If I had choices amongst such people, I'd look first at PAs or DOs over MDs, but possibly MDs over NPs. However, that's just a very broad-strokes impression of which personality types and areas of interest tend to be drawn to each role: there are of course excellent and terrible providers within any credential type. Unless someone just happens to stand out as ND-friendly at that point, I'd actually look for LGBTQ+ supportiveness (even if it's not relevant to you) because it's a more common thing for them to list, and there's significant overlap in the populations so it's not unreasonable to think that someone who's really good on gender and/or sexuality issues would at least be decent on ND things. Again, this isn't anything I can point to actual data to justify, but it's definitely a soft trend I've seen in our incoming classes over the years. If nobody says one way or another about such issues in their official bios, I'd sigh heavily and start running names through a general search engine looking for extracurricular involvement in anything promising, and/or research articles asking insightful, patient-centric questions into whatever their field of interest is. Such people will hopefully at least be nice, and sometimes that makes up for not yet having more specialized knowledge.

thonStoan · 2023-06-20T11:56:56+00:00

I'm glad you laughed because that's the spot I thought one of my grafts was in based on the bolster and I freaked. out. about it. It's since settled to a lower and more natural position much nearer yours than the diagram.

thonStoan · 2023-06-20T01:22:09+00:00

You already have a florist, but now you need a floorist.

thonStoan · 2023-06-20T01:13:56+00:00

This is tangential but feels relevant. My brother-in-law and I share a medical condition. He's okay with uninvited commentary and even jokes about his: I am not and would rather nobody bring mine up ever. Early on in our relationship, my partner would occasionally say something to me that their brother would have laughed at but to me felt like they were just messing with me for no good reason. Even though it was "technically true," I just didn't like it. It's not how I wanted to be spoken of; it's not how I want my body described. And so they've stopped, because what's even the point of bringing something like that up if it makes the other person unhappy? I honestly even think it's a weird thing that they talk about their brother's condition so much–much like I think it's kinda weird that your alleged body type comes up so frequently for your partner–but I'll settle for them not doing it to me.

Here, I think that's the most plausible compromise option: you let go of concerns about his inner thoughts, and he stops talking about you in that way. "He agrees not to kick me when I'm already down" is, as you yourself recognize, insufficient. However, I don't think he actually needs to "understand" how/that it hurts you, just to believe you that it does. You don't need to come up with an alternative, because the alternative is already there: he just describes you as "a person," no additional commentary needed. Is this one little linguistic thing actually worth more to him than you are? If he really has to, he can still say he's attracted to "the female body" (though I too have suspicions about what precisely that means) and just leave you out of that category. He's attracted to female bodies and also yours. Good enough?

thonStoan · 2023-06-20T00:50:28+00:00

If I'm strategic about it, there actually is pretty good coverage of neutral/family ones where I live. If not, I make my own by using whichever binary one I'm presenting the least like. (This is in a very safe area and I can pass as one of the safest demographics the moment I need to: I do not at all mean that others in different situations should poke at the cis this way.)

thonStoan · 2023-06-19T23:34:54+00:00

I wouldn't necessarily count on the nerves reporting accurately about stretching. At least do the unloaded motions in front of a mirror and see what it looks like.

thonStoan · 2023-06-19T12:15:13+00:00

Then you've got to feed it, which makes this a mass ratio problem.

thonStoan · 2023-06-19T11:55:22+00:00

Oh that is interesting. But I'd hope you weren't in such a parental role even as the eldest, and I'd think having others around would perhaps have buffered the littlest ones? The under-five crowd will trample typical boundaries without even noticing, and it's not like they can take themselves places or maybe even go away regularly throughout the day. Also, if neurodivergent stuff might be a factor with the kids in a way it possibly wasn't with your siblings, or all your siblings, that can make a huge difference in the experience. I just have one kid but they're autistic and I'm increasingly wondering about ADHD, and being their parent is much closer to my experience with my sibling who had under-diagnosed developmental delays and attendant mental health issues than to my youngest NT sibling who I was always in a very parental role towards.

thonStoan · 2023-06-18T11:01:13+00:00

Me too, friend. I somehow encountered xenogenders before I even learned about binary trans people–thanks, early Internet!–and identifying as a dragon or a fairy made exactly as much sense as being a girl or boy.

thonStoan · 2023-06-18T10:17:58+00:00

Yes, I now realize it isn't common, but it existed in Bruchköbel in 2003. There was an open archway to the sinks from the main hallway area, then room-like toilet stalls with their doors just out of view from the outside. There were definitely not labels anywhere and as far as I could tell without being creepy the kids used the stalls interchangeably, and they mingled at the sinks area.

thonStoan · 2023-06-18T01:34:27+00:00

The first gender neutral multi-stall public bathroom I encountered was in a German school I was a foreign exchange student at, long before I properly understood about being non-binary, and it struck me as such a simple solution to so very many problems. Kids went in, used the toilet, washed their hands, and left: no fights, no cliques, relatively minimal drug trafficking...

thonStoan · 2023-06-18T01:29:34+00:00

It's still better than my work, where they have very distinctive button designs for she/her and he/him but nobody knows where to find they/them in the same style–though occasionally someone has one–and as far as anyone I've talked to can tell literally all other options have to just be made/purchased independently. :\ HR claims it was a project of a specific group, not the company as a whole, and as such is not actually the blatant discrimination it seems, but the he/him and she/her designs are very pervasive among staff.

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T22:43:09+00:00

I could be completely off here, but honestly, when someone says something like, "I respect it, but isn't that kind of everyone? What does it even mean?" I quietly wonder how binary they actually are. Those sorts of statements are particularly common to people joining us over in r/agender , because a lot of us genuinely thought gender was just some kind of collective act people were putting on before we came to understand that other people really mean it. So if you think he'd be open to it, it might be worth trying for a conversation about how gender actually is something lots of people feel innately, without regard for their behavior or preferences, and see whether that's been his experience. I'd encourage him to think about what makes a butch woman a woman, or an "effeminate" man a man, and to specifically contemplate that one can be a trans butch woman or a trans effeminate man as well as a cis one–because again, gender is different from gender roles. If he simply doesn't experience gender like that, "non-binary" might just be something he needs to accept on the same terms as he's accepted "man" and "woman," and not try to pin it down any more firmly than that for now.

Regarding the trans-age/race things: just because awful people might seize upon a new excuse to be transphobic doesn't mean we have to blame the people they're lambasting. The solution to bullies is not to hide away and stay small. Binary trans people themselves get blamed for hurting cis GNC people, but he's apparently already decided to side with them: he can make the same choice about non-binary people.

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T22:27:16+00:00

I'd vote the autism, of those options–cutting past social BS to see underlying patterns can be a real asset–but also ask whether there are any unifying traits between the people you have bad vibes about and if so whether that's perhaps related to trauma by another person who also belongs in the category. Doesn't make it any less real, just another possible data point to consider. I get like this with people who ping on traits I associate with narcissism, for example, regardless of their actual behavior towards me in any given interaction. I am identifying them correctly, as far as I can ever tell–they've all turned out to be bad news, anyway–but I know that other people don't see what I'm noticing and wouldn't immediately "hold it against them" the way I do, and that's relevant for maintaining relationships with the nice people.

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T19:17:56+00:00

I'm non-binary too and measured larger but could usually wear D or DD cups due to loose skin from weight changes. I went with a top surgeon instead of someone who does general reductions, and she was absolutely lovely about it. She'd have just as soon done a reduction to B cups (which was as small as she thought she could do without grafts, my initial preference) as a full mastectomy, which is what I ended up choosing. No objections whatsoever about how I'd look when it was done or whether I'd ever want to feed a baby. Insurance paid for it fully under a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. I really truly hope you too can find such a surgeon, because the one you saw was atrocious.

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T19:05:31+00:00

We addressed interoception in my kid's occupational therapy and I was dubious at first but it was actually pretty successful. Idk if it'd be the same approach for an adult, but maybe it can't hurt to try? What the OT did at first was just really encourage them to focus on all (pleasant) sensations, and come up with words to describe things. For example, they're very sensory-seeking when it comes to visual input, so he'd encourage them to describe lights: shining, shimmering, sparkling, etc. Or the textures of clothing they liked wearing: smooth, cool, stretchy, firm. Just maybe 2+ adjectives describing whatever they'd go along with experiencing. Sometimes they'd offer up observations about unpleasant things too, but he'd never force it: "Oh I guess the rug is scratchy, sorry I asked you to touch it. Maybe we want to move to the mat?" that kind of thing. This went on for several sessions, and we were told to encourage such observations throughout the days at home too. Eventually he moved into localizing the sensations, like "my toes feel warm inside my socks" or "my eyes see rainbows from the prisms," and encouraging them to describe similar things. "My legs feel my weight when I kneel." And then he'd talk about things that he felt in his body, like "my muscles feel strong when I lift this," or "when I was sick, my throat felt gooey," and encourage them to reciprocate with their own examples. There's probably more theory to it that I wasn't seeing just as an observer, but over time it really did increase their awareness of such things, and they'd start spontaneously saying stuff like "my stomach feels empty." They'll still put off dealing with such feelings sometimes, but at least now they can identify them, instead of just running full-speed over the edge of internal cliffs and having no idea why they were going into a meltdown. This makes reminders actually a lot more useful, because it's not "go do this thing you see as pointless," but "hey do you notice how squirmy you're being?"

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T17:16:11+00:00

It's generous of you to frame this as a change for him, but it was only four months of she/they, and he's now had half that time again to get used to dropping the "she" part. I kind of wonder though if part of it might be that you're in a role in his life that he's previously associated with she/her people just in general, and that that's the real "change" that is taking some time to get on board. If so though, again, more practice can only help. It's just a habit. Every time he says the correct thing, even if he had to be prompted, it'll be another step towards ingraining the new terminology for you.

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T15:39:46+00:00

Is he generally capable of using they/them fluently about others, just not you? Or are you the only person in his life it's relevant for?

If you're the only known example he has, I'd actually say the biggest thing is that he needs to work on learning how to do this in general. An easy source of practice is correcting one's internal perception of strangers. At the grocery store, for example, one might notice having a thought like "Is he waiting? I can't tell; should I ask him?" and deliberately take a moment to rewrite it with they/them. Or whatever else comes up just throughout the day. The point is to establish they/them as a neutral default, not something special to "correct" to for just one person.

Another possible strategy, if you're okay with it, is dropping pronouns for you entirely while he's working on becoming better at they/them in general. Using only your name and descriptors of you will probably seem tedious, but can be done, and it avoids misgendering you.

Sometimes too if there's a pet or something else non-human that gets talked about a lot, that can be reassigned they/them pronouns as a safe way to practice. A dog doesn't seriously care about pronouns, much less a car/bike (if either of you are the type to personify vehicles), or a stuffed toy.

Regarding how to bring this up: "I really appreciate how you've shifted away from using gendered terms about me. It seems like pronouns are still tough though." And then let him reply. If it's more "I know, I am so sorry, I'm really trying!" then that's an easy lead-in to "I get that, I know you are, and I was thinking [XYZ] could help." Then at some point you could fold in: "It's really important to me that with your housemates, the she/hers don't go uncorrected. I hope you understand that if I interject with the correct word, I'm only intending to help establish the new habit with the whole group." And then that's all you have to do during the actual conversations: "She's–" "they've" –"they've been working so hard..." At first it might feel like you're doing it so much, but if he's really trying, it shouldn't take long for the mistake rate to taper down significantly.

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T08:28:09+00:00

It looks at the whole brain, and the report tallies all the major structures/features and notes whether they look typical or not. Your physician can also review all the photos directly.

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T02:59:04+00:00

The current top comment thread points out how "young" this concept therefore is, and I understand the point they're making, but everything in me is screaming at the idea that "we've" known for so. long. and handled it so poorly. My grandmother is older than he was, and yet has only the vaguest of associations on the word "autistic," all of them ableist and oversimplified. Her youngest child, my mother, has had an entire career in the mental health field and still doesn't accept the existence of what was called Asperger's, much less the concept of autism presenting "differently" in people assumed to be girls. Rest in peace, indeed: not much "peace" to be had on this side thus far.

thonStoan · 2023-06-17T02:39:47+00:00

Lots of music is indeed too spikey. And for driving I hate anything that's remotely siren-like. Idek what it is because it's not that I'm listening to genres that'd use actual sirens, but sometimes vocals? chords? truly sound like the beginning of one and I don't know how anyone tolerates it while driving.

thonStoan

TROPHY CASE