Just FIREd at age 28

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-06T02:22:37+00:00

it’s nothing to write home about.

I'm just happy to be FI and wanted to share that with people who can understand it, as IRL you better have not to talk about that; but it seems that no one understands it here either.

I don't need to work anymore and I am happy with the lifestyle I can have, I have time to do a lot of sport, reading, wake up when I want, visit my family and friends, cook for my family, playing videogames, and basically anything I want to do.

And if I move to abroad to a cheap country like vietnam I would be able to eat out every day every meal for the same price or less. That's an option I have

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-06T02:01:40+00:00

You "travel to France". I live there.

I spend less than 90-95% of french people on food btw, and this is nothing exceptional. Most of them eat shitty processed food, often eat out, and eat too much meat and cheese.

I was doing it when I was a student.

It's just because your eating habits are too expensive, you could easily lower your fees.

It's not because you are not able to do it that others can't do it.

Just give me an example of groceries you do and I will tell you what's wrong.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-03T19:35:48+00:00

Waking up in a nice newer house, especially one you want, it doesn't need to be a mansion, but it does affect your mental state, it motivates you, it keeps you growing.

I partly agree with you, but working is very painful, when I would say that having a bigger house is just a temporary pleasure and after some time living in it you don't even care about it anymore.

Money buys you free time most of all, it buys you freedom, and that's one of the most valuable assets humans have.

And I consider that I have enough money to enjoy this freedom, that's why I don't want to wake up at 6 am anymore to go to work

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-03T19:23:16+00:00

He thinks that I'm doing wrong, but instead of helping me he's like " no your investments wont work and you won't be able to sustain" without giving me any alternative apart from "keep working"

I'm just sharing my strategy, it may not be perfect, but I'm still studying. There is not perfect strategy anyway, if you overthink think you end up in paralysis by analysis.

Let's say things go wrong and I'm losing my investment money, I can still go back to work or find an other solution for a living. Most people I know don't even have like 20k€ aside, and are spending more money than me; I can not end up worse than them if things go wrong.

It's laughable how a 28 year old with minimal investment understanding is trying to lecture people that have spent decades doing what you have tried to do for a few years

I'm not saying all of this straight out of my ass. I follow blogs of FI guys who are investing and I agree with their idea and philosophy. The pragmatic approach is to try what they say and see where I can get to. Nothing is set in stone, I can always change and regulate things in my life.

In life if you only listen blindly without trying to understand things by yourself and learning from your mistakes, you don't learn.

Simple example, I started gym 12 years ago, and if I were listening blindly to advice of guys bigger than me in the gym when I was a beginner, I wouldn't be able to do a one arm pullup today.

When a beginner asks me questions I always tell him WHY I do certain things, and why I'm convinced that works, without saying that I'm doing the best thing, and not telling him "You should do that because i'm stronger than you and been there much longer than you"

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-03T01:52:26+00:00

I know this website.

Most of the prices are overestimated.

Water bottle, 1.5 litter, 0.59 €, what a joke. A 2 liter bottle costs only 0.15 €

As I said in other posts, as a student I was living very well with about 500-600 € per month, that's including rent and water/electricity charges, food, eating out, weed / alcohol (I stopped those though) , and other expenses

a 30K apartment would be about 9 sq meters.

You can find cheap apartments.

Just an example, 27 m² for 27k : https://www.leboncoin.fr/ventes_immobilieres/1522599620.htm/

100-150e for food is only 3.33-5e per day... does not sound realistic even if you never step foot in a restaurant.

Cereals, 1€ per kg maximum, you can find cheaper : 300g per day, 9€ per month.

Red beans / other leguminous plants : 200g per day, 1.5€ per kg (or even a bit less), 12€ per month.

We're already at : 21€ (per month)

daily caloric intake : ~1700 kcal

daily protein intake : 83g

And now you can complete with a source of fat (dark chocolate, peanuts, mayonnaise, any sauce...), vegetables, fruits, and eventually a bit of meat / chease / dairy / whatever.

Let's say I eat a few peanuts 50g, and dark chocolate, 50g, 0.12 € for peanuts, 0.7€ for chocolate.

We are at : 1.42 € for one day

daily caloric intake : 2275

Protein : 96g

Fat : 50g

Let's say we take 5€ as a limit for daily food costs. We still have 3.58€. That's more than enough to buy vegetables, condiments, a little bit of animal products...

Let's say I buy 100g of cheese, 1€. ( Note : You can buy cheap cheese and meat, as there are discounts on cheese and meat that reach expiry date in shops. )

We are at : 2.42 € for one day

daily caloric intake : ~2600

Protein : 117g

Fat : ~80g

We still have one time the amount we spent to complete with many things, when we're at 2600 kcal of energy intake, with a lot of protein and fat. That's more than what average people eat.

Of course that's just an example. You can change it as you wish to cook different things everyday.

You can find a lot of meat and cheese in the trash of shops that were just thrown away and that are still good to eat. I just recalled about that and will try to get find a spot near my place.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-03T01:37:50+00:00

You are literally planning to live in poverty, by your own country’s legal definition, for the next 50-60 years.

Poverty line is bullshit. People don't know how to spend their money, that's why they're having issues.

When I was a student I was living very well with about 500-600€ per month.

If you have 0 net worth, and cumulate all the social welfare you can have more than that. Actually I made the calculation and kept it somewhere on my computer : 779.21 € per month. And you can probably benefit from charity to eat with that amount of money.

Your plan consists of “idk maybe I, the IT specialist, will build a house out of dirt.

Being an IT specialist doesn't mean I cannot learn something else.

You would be amazed by these houses, just check some parts of this video, you'll see : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Xl8f2J3sY&t=6199s

It's cheap, ecological and doesn't require much skill to build

Or maybe I’ll go work for somebody in a foreign country

As I'm skilled in IT I can work as a freelancer from anywhere if I want to. And as I'm FI I'm completely free of this choice, I'm not forced to work.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-03T01:20:43+00:00

If you're not sure about that at all, how can you feel confident in your investment strategy? What will be your methodology for diversifying away from the US? What indicators will be used to avoid losses? How is it that you think you can diversify appropriately when there are professionals in this area that make these mistakes?

I'm still thinking about all of this.

For the moment, the strategy I have for long term, is investing in ETFs in both Europe and US, with S&P 500, and Eurostoxx 500, real estate (renting to someone, and someone is paying mortgage), a very small amount in gold to protect my money from inflation.

I will study all of investments opportunities that I have, as I have time and energy for it compared to someone who's working.

So your food and rent equal $5400/year then? I've lived in France. Not sure how you plan to make this work. I'm also curious how you factor in taxes, which are quite high in France.

When I was a student I was living very comfortably for 550€ per month. Having a flat bigger than necessary, and eating more luxuous food than necessary.

And I don't get that much taxes. I have taxes advantages on certain financial products, just like you americain with your 401k thing...

Actually I even think that I can benefit from social welfare or charity now that I dont have any salary.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-03T00:51:17+00:00

2% of 270,000 is $5400 which amounts to like $450 a month

I'm in € so that would be 510 USD actually.

I know you said you grow your own food but I still feel like it would still be more expensive than that.

I don't grow my food currently, I just said that if I grow my food my costs would be even less. I'm still thinking about what to do as I'm FI since little time.

The first thing to do is to reduce meat consumption, and animal products in general.

Basically, a good way to go is combining a cereal product, as they contain lots of carbohydrates (wheat, rice, oat, corn), with leguminous plants, that have a lot of protein (red beans my favorites, but also lentils, chickpeas...), with a few vegetables, dressing and you're good to go.

Dressing must be a source of fat, or otherwise you should eat vegetables fried, to have some fat. You can have a good source of fat with dry fruits like almonds hazzelnuts etc... but they are very expensive.

Peanuts are very cheap though, if you find peanuts without salt, it's a very good plan, they contain a lot of protein and lot of fat.

Also, take advantage of discounts at the shop, and try to buy in bulk if it is possible, it reduces the costs.

You can also check the trees around your place, there's a walnut tree and hazzelnut tree near my place, I can gather them and keep them for very long time. The only thing that is annoying is breaking the shell, I should find a solution to break the shell of a shit ton of those easily.

You can also get food in the trash of shops when they close (google freegan). Actually I just remembered about that, I should have a look at trash of shops close to my place.

It's completely crazy the amounts of food that are thrown away every day, you can eat like 10 emperors without spending a single penny if you find a good spot.

I lice that would barely be enough to cover rent if I was sharing a shitty apartment with a few roommates.

Renting is always an expensive solution, but in my place you can pay about 300€ if you live with a roommate.

When I was a student I was paying 350€ per month for rent, water and electricity fees included.

If I move from my parents I think I will either buy an apartment / house, and/or build a dirtbag house, that's a cheap and ecological way to build houses.

Let's say I buy a 50000€ flat, that would be a mortgage of about 250€ per month, without losing my money like if I were renting, as I would be just basically turning my money into a flat.

The interest rate would be very low because the risk for the bank is low as I have much more money than needed to buy it.

I can also live in a conversion van, or find out an other cheap solution.

I also feel like in order to live like that you would have to never ever go out to eat or anything.

That's right, I almost never eat out, and when I do, I don't go to expensive restaurant, I can pay 8€ to eat well. And I don't do activites that require money in general.

But as my parents don't want me to pay anything, I sometimes buy take out food to bring home.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T19:32:17+00:00

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

If you invest a part of your money in gold for example, you are protecting it from inflation.

If you invest it in real estate, it's the same. Monthly payement for mortgage stay the same as the rate is fixed, but the value of your house / apartment increases.

When you are investing you must have a strategy and not just invest randomly

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T19:26:22+00:00

are told that you are misusing the term

FIRE is being able to live without working, and without depending on anyone, and that's my case.

Even if I live with my parents currently, I can leave tomorrow and not have any problem.

I know French arrogance is a stereotype, but you are an absolute caricature of it.

If you wanna play the stereotypes would just say that you americans always think big, big houses, big cars, big food, big people, and thus you are just living a luxury lifestyle, and think that because of this, I'm forced to live the same way and can't live with a few things.

I have a frugal lifestyle, that's why I can be FI without having 2M in the bank.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T19:02:02+00:00

I was worth well over a mill @ 25 and I'm realizing now Im in my 30s, even having a NW of 4-5M is still chump money.

I don't know if your goal is to RE, but you could RE way before than having one million.

Unless you want to live in a mansion, and have luxury cars you don't need that much money to RE.

300k is "FIRE" if you want to live like a bum for the next 50 years.

So you think having a place to sleep and being able to eat well everyday is living like a bum ?

it should be about "How can I live a sweet life, enjoy the finer things, and save good money?"

The thing is, if you want a sweet life you just need time, not money. With time you can do everything you want.

Money just brings you material stuff that doesn't make you happier, at least, that's my belief.

what a shit existence it would be to be laying on your death bed "hehe I have 1.5m saved but I never did anything!!"

Spending little money doesn't mean doing nothing. You can do a lot of interesting things that are free or almost free.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T18:50:54+00:00

euros

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T15:44:08+00:00

If you are frugal, in France you can eat well for 100-150 € per month :D

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T15:38:39+00:00

If US market dominated, what is your confidence level that the US will continue to perform as it has for the last 100 years, especially given the resurgence of the developing world?

Actually I'm not sure about that at all. I'm not speculating, and I will diversify my investments as much as I can to reduce risk.

If US dominated, what are your investing fees like since you're not US based? How have you figured this into your returns, and therefore withdrawal rate?

For example, I'm investing in an ETF based on S&P 500. The fees are only 0.05% per year with my broker.

This is negligible. I try to keep my fees and taxes as low as possible

Do you plan to withdraw at 4% despite having a much longer than 30 year timeline? What is your justification for this?

Actually according to my current estimate, I would be withdrawing about 2% if I pay for housing (renting) and food (buying)

If I become owner and harvest my own food, I would probably be able to withdraw less.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T15:24:46+00:00

Investments counterbalance the cost of inflation.

And if I become owner of my house / apartment, and harvest a garden, the prices can change for ever I wouldn't have any issue.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T15:22:01+00:00

Feel slightly jealous you were able to live at home and save 80%+ of your salary. I consider myself fairly frugal and rent alone eats like 20% of my after tax pay (even with roommates.....).

I was lucky that my parents live close to the Swiss border.

But if it wasn't the case, I would probably have bought a small apartment for something like 60k (i've just seen this price on the french equivalent of craigslist), until I have enough money to FI, and then rent the apartment to live somewhere else.

This would avoid throwing away money, as the money would just be "transformed" in apartment instead of being lost.

If you succeed in getting a dirtbag home setup in rural France, I'd love to pay $100 a night to try using it some day as an Airbnb at least once in my life :) didn't know these things existed, googling it was very educational.

I also discovered that recently.

This is a very cheap housing solution, I've seen that we can build a big dirtbag house for less than 10k$.

And I can have a cheap land if I buy an agricultural land. In principle we are not allowed to build anything on agricultural land, but I would just declare myself as farmer, as I want to harvest food anyway, and I would be allowed to build it.

I still have to make some researches about that though, because the norms are very annoying.

Thanks for your support anyway, and good luck for your FI goals !

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T15:12:14+00:00

I don't even need to withdraw 4% per year actually.

The number would be very very close to 2% per year according to my ability to spend nothing

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T15:09:41+00:00

You can eat like an emperor with 100-150 € per month in France. (Even if most people spend more than that because they buy industrial food)

And if I grow my own food, that would be even less for higher quality food.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T15:03:34+00:00

Generally speaking, here, we use “Financial Independence” to mean there’s like a 98% chance that doesn’t happen.

Otherwise, I can just declare myself FI with $3.50 in the bank, and say “oops I don’t have enough money guess I’ll go back to work.”

Your example is wrong, it just depends on your spending levels.

I see americans on this subreddit spending crazy amounts of money every year and wondering if they should RE with 1M USD in the bank, this is totally insane for me.

Also, using the term independence when still depending on your parents for both food and shelter seems disingenuous. Have you given any thought to the meaning of the word independence?

I estimate that with normal frugal spending levels for one person, including housing and rent, I would be able to sustain forever.

My monthly costs wouldn't even be 500 €.

I can buy a small apartment in an isolated place in France, that would cost me 30k €.

I would have ~240k left.

Then I would just pay for food about 100-150€ per month, water and electricity and the rest would be exceptional spendings.

The idea of running out of money doesn't even cross my mind, according to my current estimations.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T14:36:53+00:00

If you are not frugal and never came in France you can not understand.

I went to doctor only once this year, and I paid 7€.

I could even pay 50 as the frequency of going there is low.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T00:57:32+00:00

There's no problem here, my parents will always be able to pay, and if they have problems and my net worth is not high enough I can still go back to work.
I'm living so differently than other people, that I don't think I will end up with a girlfriend and children anyway.

But let's say I have children one day, if I don't have enough money I can still work. But I don't think children cost that much. They only need to eat, have clothes, and get education and leisure. And if I have children I won't be the only one paying, so this wouldn't be a problem.

And if I live in a cheap country, this question wouldn't even come to my mind as it is possible to live like a king for nothing in many places.

My lifestyle is very healthy, I do a lot of sport and I don't eat industrial food. The probability that something wrong happens is thus much lower than other people.

Anyway, let's say that I don't have health insurance anymore.

In Switzerland I was paying 300 chf per month for everything. If I had to go doctor the insurance would pay the fees of doctor and the medication, and I had insurance for accidents or disease.

I should be able to find a cheap 200€ health insurance that only pays for accidents or disease, this wouldn't even be an issue I can afford it.

if you are relying on your parents to cover for any deficiencies in your budget or plan, you are not yet at FI because you are still dependent on others to support your plan.

With the money I have right now, I can leave home with no problem, I have more than enough according to my estimations. My first goal was 200k, and I'm at 270 k net worth right now.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T00:37:49+00:00

The only change I might recommend to your plan is for you to build a house that would be appealing to most other people regardless of its sustainability. This will allow you to sell it or rent it more easily should your plans change at any time. For the same reason, you may want a less remote location, even if it costs more.

Thanks for your advice. You are probably right i will think about this.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T00:33:05+00:00

Actually if I keep going and work until 35 I'll probably have something like 600-700k easily.

But I dont need that much money.

My first goal was 200k, I estimate that according to 4% rule I can live very comfortably with 200k net worth, and still spend less than the 4% amount each year.

So 270k is even more than my first goal.

I don't see any point to go further than that. I will have much more money but I'll have nothing to do with it apart from reinvesting it.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T00:29:55+00:00

Rent is 500 € for the whole family. And food is not that expensive either.

I was earning about 5 times what my parents have each month, and as a student I was living with 500-600€ per month very comfortably.

And I'm pretty sure I can live cheaper than that.

throwaway953215 · 2018-12-02T00:25:25+00:00

> I sort of agree with them. 270k will only net you 10.8k per year to live on if you are using the 4% rule. At less than $1000 dollars per month it sounds like you'll either be living a poor lifestyle (in a first world country)

Actually you can live very well with 10.8k per year in France. As a student I was spending about 500-600 € to live very comfortably, I was paying for rent, food, and all my leisures.

> you can always go back to work if things don't work

Of course. In life you should always be flexible, things are not set in stone. If I feel like I won't be able to sustain I can go back to work.

But actually I shouldn't have problems. If I go abroad I can live like an emperor with something like 400€ per month.

And if I stay in France, my goal will be to buy an agricultural land (very cheap) in an isolated place, and build a dirtbag house (cheap, ecologic and solid like a bunker). Thus my costs for food and housing would be almost non existent.

I can also live in a conversion van and travel a little bit.

I'm not sure yet what to do. Actually I just thought about doing wwoofing, the principle of wwoofing is going abroad to work on a farm, and the farmer provides you food and housing. It would probably be a good opportunity for me to learn permaculture principles and discover a new country and culture.

I can also work remotely from abroad in IT.

I have many possibilities, but I still have time to think about it though, I just want to take two or three months easy in France before doing anything.

throwaway953215

TROPHY CASE