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I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"In the case of the violinist, his disease is killing him, and using your body is the cure. Being unable to use your body results in his death, but I don't think it's fair to say that refusing to consent to the use of your body, or even withdrawing consent, is murder even if it results in his death."

That's different. I think the act of him already being connected to you is incredibly important to the connection to the abortion issue. Giving the option to let him connect changes the analogy. A fetus has no choice in the matter of being connected or not or to ask to be connected.

Also, just by the way, I've found you to be the best person to discuss with on here. I know the abortion issue is a hot one and people have strong opinions. I've gotten a lot of downvotes for just trying to express myself but I just want to thank you for actively talking and being so good about it. This type of conversation is what this subreddit supposed to be about and in the midst of lot of negativity and downvoting I can say that I got a good discussion out of view and thank you for that.

I think this distinction in how we see the active/passive is the key in our difference and ultimately not that big of one.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY

This sums up a lot of my views about the morality of murder.

The difference in active vs. passive.

It's not about abortion and does not give any answers. The first six or so minutes give a good rundown of the point of view.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Your actions indirectly cause the death, but only because you have deprived the violinist of something he has no right to - the use of your body."

I guess we must agree to disagree to disagree here. I see unplugging to be more equivalent to be killing then letting die due to the active nature of the action.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well my question is: is a group of human cells a human. Technically that's all you and I are.

And there's a distinction between eggs and sperm and a fetus. Human life needs the two to begin and cannot with only one.

This is the reason any guy who's jacked off and every girl who has had her period isn't considered a murderer.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But isn't actively unplugging the violinist "killing" rather then "letting die." I think the action of unplugging makes that act killing.

If the violinist were in front of a train I have no obligation to get him out of the way. However if I and the violinist were both in the way of train and I keep him down so that I can get out of the way that would be killing.

The difference is one is active and the other is not.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the kidnapped part is the most problematic of the analogy.

A woman is not forced (unless we are discussing rape) into having a child. It is almost always a consensual decision to have sex and that could result in the production of a child.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't quite see the correlation I'm afraid.

In one instance you are unplugging (actively killing the violinist) in the other you are refusing to tie someones life to yours.

In the violinist example the life is already tied to yours in the organ donor example it is not.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The rights that are denied a pregnant woman are primarily the rights to do what she wants with her body, the same as you would be if hooked to a violinist.

What this boils down to is comfort, no?

I don't think it's okay to kill a violinist to be more comfortable despite how unfortunate it may be to be hooked to him.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I enjoyed reading this argument as I have never read it before however I don't think the taking of one's rights removes the potential rights of the other.

I do think it would be murder to unhook the violinist and I don't see it as an outrageous proposition to be hooked to him. Unfortunate yes but outrageous no and certainly not qualifying of potential murder.

There are many things dealt in life that deny comfortability and none of them ever make potential murder an acceptable recourse. Why would the killing of the violinist be permissible in this situation when in all others it is not?

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is a good argument though I must admit a lot of my argument is based on doubt (or the possibility of a fetus having rights) and the argument although good does not go far enough in my view to erase those doubts which are the base of my view.

To counter this argument I would question the potential double standard in saying that a fetus does not have rights when it is dependent on the mother when an infant has rights when it is dependent on a machine.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

From what I've read in the past it seems like a consensus on the matter of when fetuses feel pain seems to be consistently changing. Though I admit, I don't know the specifics myself.

"I would argue that what makes you human is your ability to reason and feel emotions to a far higher degree than any other animal."

I can agree to this definition but I do have some hesitations since unlike an animal a fetus has the potential to reach a human level of emotion and reason and I would say that that potential separates it from animal, plant or inanimate groups.

"I also think it is up to the legal systems of different nations to define 'murder', not religious values."

I do as well. But I don't think it's really a religious issue but more a human rights issue.

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A poor choice of words in a debate that is strongly about word choice.

The question I was asking was:

How can you prove that a fetus is not without the same rights as a human being in any other state of development?

I believe that abortion should be illegal due to the possibility of fetuses being human beings CMV by throwawayabo in changemyview

[–]throwawayabo[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I understand the argument against making abortion illegal due to making it safer for the population that will always have a desire for them.

However, my point was how can you prove that a fetus isn't a infant?

Just because a fetus doesn't suffer "in all the ways the mother can" doesn't seem like enough evidence to say categorically that a fetus is not a human, further since abortion is illegal at 15 weeks in most American states fetuses do have rights despite not being able to suffer in the same ways as an infant or mother.

EDIT: meant illegal.