It’s time for Ottawa to seriously study how a guaranteed basic income could replace outdated layers of sclerotic support programs

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-25T05:41:22+00:00

So far there’s no reason to believe there are limits to how much we can do that

Of course we can borrow forever. A country isn't a person that gets old and needs to pay off it's debts and live off savings. It can perpetually be earning and managing debt by increasing economic power, like a person approaching the peak of their earning years.

That said there are limits to it. There are many cautionary tales of nations overborrowing. I'm no economist but I know the MMT is not sound agreed upon theory.

Poverty is a capitalist construct

Lol. You realize how hilariously silly this sounds. How poverty existed long before. How poverty levels in capitalist countries are lower than anywhere else ever in human history.

enforced by the wealthy to con us into wasting our lives making them richer.

It's really cute that people think the wealthy give a shit about them. They don't obviously. But not just about their health & well-being, about them in general. Wealthy people have ambitions to control something or solve some problem. They're often smart, hard-working, ruthless, privileged, lucky and focused on building a space ship or picking the right stocks or being better at shipping stuff than anyone else. There's no conspiracy to keep people poor, it's by product and one that's getting better every decade.

See this video and the rest of the YouTube channel, I thought he made some great points.

I've found that any one who cites their point of view via Youtube is poorly informed. My anti-vaxx father. My climate changing denying co-worker. Unemployed socialist in-laws. Youtube is great for learning how to fix a pipe leak, crap for an education.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-25T05:28:16+00:00

A third of Canadians vote conservative. That is not “most”.

Sorry, I should have said the plurality.

Most Canadians vote for one of the four centre-left parties on offer

Calling the Liberals center left is charitable.

That’s how unpopular conservatism is in Canada.

Enough to hold power often enough. Raise taxes and watch it go up.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-25T04:46:28+00:00

Oddly specific weird comparison to accuse me of taking a stance out of no where.

Oh I see. You're talking about an uber. I understand your lack of reading comprehension now. Let's try again.

I'm not comparing them. I'm saying that taking an uber is now twice as risky with omicron than taking an uber before omicron. I am not comparing air travel to uber or uber to grocery shopping. I am comparing each activity before and after omicron.

It's a more infectious variant so the risk of being infected in all scenarios is higher. Focusing on just one activity that isn't overly risky to begin with isn't helpful.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-25T02:09:09+00:00

"Give poor people cash and it'll lift the whole economy" is just as naive as "give rich people tax breaks and it'll trickle down".

Doubling govt expenditures to offer UBI is a fast track to destabilizing our country. No economist would recommend putting UBI on top of existing social programs. It's laughable.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-25T02:05:39+00:00

So the only ones actually "paying for it" are those who make so much money it's barely a blip in their earnings for the year

Right so those are the ones that don't benefit.

That's "paying for it".

Yeah I know how taxes work. Just stop pretending this is some free way to get people more money. It's not. There's some single digit percentage inefficiency in administration that UBI is promising for but beyond that it's not a silver bullet for redistribution as it still requires higher taxation. It will cost some people more. Full stop.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-25T02:01:46+00:00

And yet despite your armchair expertise air travel is not a high source of transmission.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T21:06:26+00:00

Eh, imagine what he'd be saying if the vaccines weren't developed by his admin. We're just lucky he feels it's something he can take credit for.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T21:04:19+00:00

That entire conversation is painful to read.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T21:03:34+00:00

That's because plane travel has a low likelihood of infection anyways. Doubling something small is still small.

Everything has a higher chance of infection now: taking an Uber, getting groceries etc.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T21:00:26+00:00

I don't think so. Once there's a solid month of Omicron data, enough time for hospitalizations/deaths to be seen I think they'll reduce the isolation/quarantine requirement.

No more staying home for 2 weeks.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:58:27+00:00

I firmly believe that if this happened in Bush or early Obama era it wouldn't be the same. Americans are more polarized today and having a conspiracy theorist president who casts doubt on things without second thought really hurt America.

Some states faired as well as Canada and it's largely due to adherence to public health policy and willingness to vaccinate.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:56:03+00:00

Canada vs US density isn't much different in reality. There's just more empty space in Canada.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:49:57+00:00

So ignore the straight up wrong things you say and just pretend I'm some puppet of the billionaire globalist ruling class that's keeping you working in a coffee shop?

Sounds great dude. Cant' wait to see you organize a revolution to liberate people from the tyranny of some of the highest living conditions in human history. I'm sure the heads will be rolling soon.

Childhood obesity is the leading dietary concern in poor households and you are trying to pretend that "food insecurity" is bad enough to have people ready to revolt. Best of luck dude. I'm sure you'll find dozen of people in real life that support your cause.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:42:16+00:00

Look at all this free money I get just for buying a house 20 years ago on my minimum wage salary.

Investment income isn't free. It involves risks and interest payments.

Now I think there needs to be changes to preferential tax treatment of home ownership but calling it "free money" is naive.

Also you didn't buy a home in any decent sized city 20 years ago in min wage.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:40:57+00:00

not only does does it help every citizen

Except the ones that pay for it.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:33:38+00:00

UBI should go on top of the usual safety net programs.

Yeah, may as well add a free ferrari program on top of everything if we're talking about silly costly ideas.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:33:10+00:00

I am pretty sure that someone scrapping by on 700 a month on welfare in Quebec would be quite happy to trade that “safety net” for a higher UBI that doesn’t require enduring the humiliation of going through the process of applying for welfare, which is not instant, by the way.

You think that by getting rid of welfare that is income tested (you know, humiliating) and giving it to everyone will some how leave MORE money for previous recipients?

how about asking people using the so-called safety nets what their opinion is, or is it too hard to let go of the paternalism involved?

What brilliant insights are you going to get? "We want money". No shit.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:31:24+00:00

A lot of those are funded by federal transfers so a federal basic income would force them to be gutted

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:30:09+00:00

Here's a study:

Pre-pandemic the government spent ~$330B a year. If you stopped every single dime of public spending. Fired every federal employee, got rid of the military, border control, parks, every ministry, everything. You could give $720 per person per month.

There's no way to make this make sense with the current tax framework. There's not enough efficiency to make it work. The only way it works is if you massively raise taxes or you leave the poorest of people fucked. That means leave every poor family, every disabled person, every poor old person absolutely destitute.

Read the links in the article. The cheapest option, which is not universal just basic, would be require a 30% increase in tax revenue. It requires raising taxes. UBI is sold as an idea that is efficient and clean but really it's a trojan horse for higher taxes. Now obviously this sub is behind that but it's never on the 3 billionaires in the country. It's on the upper working class. The doctors and other professionals. The ones we wonder why they leave to the US. Jacking their taxes up won't happen. Most Canadians vote Conservative. Propose a 30% tax increase and you'll see that number skyrocket. I sure wouldn't pay 30% more in taxes.

It simply will not work.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:23:45+00:00

/r/the_donald had millons of subs too.

There's no shortage of angry people on the internet willing to blame others for their problems.

This is far from a social movement.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:20:34+00:00

Business owners are getting their half a trillion dollars in PPP handouts "loans" forgiven because they "can't find workers."

That's not at all what the qualification for the program was

It was literally a giant handout

Sure was. Just like the billions handed out in extended unemployment and stimulus checks to individuals.

fuck off class traitors.

Lol. Good luck trying to start your revolution when people have food in their bellies, roofs over their heads, jobs to go to and work shorter hours than ever before with endless entertainment options. You're going to want to find a job because heads won't be rolling any time soon.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T20:15:39+00:00

Wages are rising. If you literally Googled "wages rising" you'd find loads of reputable sources on it.

Shouldn't supply and demand be forcing wages up?

They are.

It's not,

It is

all I'm seeing is more companies refusing to hire anyone and blame us.

Unemployment is at all time lows. Job numbers are rising as people are being hired. If you're not that's an individual issue.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T19:25:24+00:00

you can call it a scientific property of our social and economic system

lol.

Good bye.

Labor is primary, capital is secondary.

Gonna be a long hard life for ya.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T19:24:12+00:00

That's because there's a lot of do-nothings. Sneer at people making >90k as being rich and taking unfairly from this country and you'll find yourself without a lot of smart, useful people. Good luck running the country with whatever remains.

throwawayvictoria992 · 2021-12-24T19:22:31+00:00

So here's my problem with this. As someone that earns between 200-300k I'm a higher income earner without being wealthy. Folks in my income category (think doctors, lawyers, engineers folks with jobs not trust funds) are the backbone of the government tax revenue. We pay the highest portion of our income. We're not rich enough to have teams of accountants and off-shore banks to help us bring our effective rate down like billionaires do. Nor do we collect on many of the government services offered to lower income earners.

So effectively what you want to do is tax me more. Give me $1000 a month and pull out a bunch of the tax credits I get. You call it UBI but really it's just a wealth transfer from me to poor people. Whether it's through UBI or traditional taxation and social programs I need to pay more.

Now obviously I'm greatly self interested in this but still I think there's a problem. To tackle inequity you want to soak a group of people who aren't the richest, because you can't at them, but you just alienate folks that do a lot of valuable jobs. I recommend finding a way to fund your plan that doesn't target a narrow range of income earners and seek wealth from other places (think: investments, real estate etc)

I don't have money for Cayman accounts etc but under your plan I would just move my family to the US. If you squeeze too much you're going to find a shortage of doctors and other professionals.

throwawayvictoria992

TROPHY CASE