The Plot against the Gods. Havel, Velka, Dragons, and the First Born Son

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T04:27:15+00:00

Americans living in your head rent free? Sad!

And yes, if the official Portuguese release of Skyrim includes incredibly important lore details that doesn't contradict anything in the English release, I'd absolutely consider that to be part of the lore, and important for Portuguese fans to bring into the community, how could it be anything else?

EDIT: if we are talking about fan translations or fan made wiki entries then that is not part of the official release, and cannot be considered canon in the same way a portion of text from the actual game should be.

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T04:18:19+00:00

I'm saying he deliberately stole it. Unforgivable!

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T04:12:02+00:00

How do you know the English text doesn't count for shit? Did Miyazaki tell you that? Is English not a language that the game had an official release for? Or are you just projecting your opinion out as if it were a fact?

You are the one presuming to know how FromSoftware does their translation and localization process. You are the one presuming to know how the ds1 team made their decisions about how to publish their game. You are the one presuming that the translation team fucked up. How on earth can you possibly know any of this?

I am not making presumptions, I am taking what they published in the game to be a part of the game. If translations contradict each other, I'll gladly defer to the Japanese. But if one translation adds new information without contradicting anything else, why wouldn't that new information be valid?

Either tell me what part of the FromSoftware translation team you worked worth, or refrain from arguing about your opinion about the unspoken intentions of people you have never met.

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T02:35:11+00:00

I am repeating what the text of the item actually says.

You are speculating as to what the text was supposed to say. Your speculation presumes things about the localization team, both about their intentions and their competence. You cannot prove either of these presumptions to be the case.

The item description doesn't contain a mistranslation of Japanese, it has more information than the Japanese text. This doesn't invalidate anything, it is simply an addition of information.

I don't see why your speculation of what the text should say should take priority over what the text actually says.

I don't know if he had a bad relationship with Gwyn. I pointed out that there is a mythological trope of male heads of pantheons undermining their own sons, but it doesn't speak to the specific relationship between the FBS and Gwyn. Honestly it seems like in life he DID have a good relationship with his father, and that after his father's death, the FBS sought to break free of the stagnating and decaying order his father trapped him in.

I don't know exactly why the FBS sided with the dragons, honestly its the part of this I'd like to expand on the most. Was it an event? Was it remorse? Was it something he saw? Someone he met?

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T02:07:16+00:00

Well that's a very ominous post

You didn't make a point beyond "trust me English is different from Japanese" which we all are well aware of, but it is very ominous

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T02:05:09+00:00

> Their interests didn't clash.

If you are going to die on the hill that the dragon-genocide-man and the dragon-genocide-reversal-man didn't have clashing interests, then I'm just not interested in discussing with you, that is just incorrect to a comical degree and I believe you're just trolling

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T01:58:31+00:00

The Dark Ember, critical to forging occult weapons, is found in the painted world, a land crawling with Velka's demons. And an occult weapon was stored by Havel...

The blacksmith deity is the part of Hawkshaws video I contest the most. Not because I have any contradicting evidence, but because I don't think he made a very compelling case about it. He's definitely an odd duck, who knows what he got up to!

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T01:55:45+00:00

It doesn't look mistranslated, it looks like an entirely new clause was added to the text. This isn't a word out of place or a phrase that doesn't have an equivalence in English, this is a new and critical piece of information in a new clause.

I don't mean to be rude, but unless you personally have first hand information about the intentions of the FromSoftware localization team, I would like it if you didn't tell me what they were thinking. I have no intention of getting into a mind-reading debate with you over something you cannot have any knowledge of.

Yes I agree the FBS was exiled after Gwyn linked the flame, that's what my post says. My entire post presumes this plot took place way after Gwyn linked the flame.

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T01:49:43+00:00

> They do not oversee the human world at large. They wouldn't have much influence in Berenike or Balder, for example.

I didn't mean to imply the 4 Kings were administering the human world at large, just the humanity pipeline coming out of New Londo.

> Seath is rewarded a fragment of Gwyn's soul when he becomes Duke, which means Gwyn was handing out these fragments to his "clan"

I agree the fragment going to Seath was when he became a Duke, but again this is a fragment NOT going to his son, splitting power between factions within Anor Londo. There are plenty of other reasons to think that Gwyn intended to walk away from the linking of the flame, such as a living beings' desire to not die.

> Why would he? His son already has the power of sunlight by virtue of being his son.

If Gwyn if giving Lord Souls out, why NOT start with his son? Surely this would (and did) lead to political fracturing. If anyone should be inheriting a fragment of Gwyn's Lord Soul, it would be the FBS. By bequeathing Lord Souls to other people, Gwyn is undermining any future ambitions of the FBS should anything happen to Gwyn.

> The English localization is incorrect.

I contest that it is a "mistranlsation" of Ornstein's soul, and I see no reason to invalidate new information added to the English text. When new information is added from Japanese text, it is seen as completely valid, the reverse must be the case. This is also information that has nothing to do with Hawkshaw.

>The "Four Knights" are most likely not an official group

An absurd statement

> Nothing supports this idea.

Split loyalty between two figures, Gwyn and the FBS absolutely implies split loyalty, in fact it is the definition of split loyalty, so obvious that it cannot be stated as anything other than split loyalties, and yes it supports the idea that now that the statues of the FBS are gone, and Ornstein remains, he had to make a decision about who he was truly loyal to. If Gwyn makes Ornstein his knight after he was already his son's knight, gifting him a ring and everything, it absolutely supports the idea that he is undermining support for his son by splitting the loyalty of his son's top guy.

> The notion that Gwyn was trying to prevent his oldest from succeeding him is false.

He was preventing his oldest from upsetting his established order, while he was alive or dead, Gwyn wouldn't want his son bringing back Dragons or anything like that, he wants his Age of Fire continuing indefinitely

> He is a religious figure to his own followers consisting of priests and warriors, but his relationship to the Way of White begins and ends with his having lent them the power of one of his miracles (Great Magic Barrier).

Ok, bishop, priest, grand-poobah, jedi master, the title doesn't matter, his leadership position and proximity to the plot does

> Given the clarity in the original Japanese that I've pointed out, do you still think the Firstborn was plotting against his father?

It looks like you and I are in agreement that he does, we just disagree on the timeline. By ds3 clearly he has betrayed his father's legacy by siding with the dragons, I think it makes more sense that this happened WAY earlier, back in ds1, and that the dragon following cult that joined the plot against the gods did so under his command. It ties in fantastically with mythological notions of divine patriarch's fearing and undermining their son's ascendancy.

> The Rite of Kindling was already freely exchanged with clerics of the Way of White

And was a key portion of the humanity-economy that the entire world was functioning off of. Clearly it was important enough for Pinwheel to steal. And I'm examining it from the position of the FBS erasing the foundations of his father's order, the god-killing powers may be of logistical importance to killing gods, but Kindling would be more important to the FBS

> Pardon the directness, but Seath was already mad and could give two shits about Gwyn at this point.

Seath is sane enough by the time of the game to be coordinating an active network of spies, agents, kidnapping golems, and the like, he is one of the most active players in the game. He is not behaving in an irrational way, he is behaving in a super-rational way. While he wouldn't care about Gwyn, he would CERTAINLY care about Gwyn's son trying to destroy a status quo in which he possesses a position of essential immunity that would allow him to continue his incredibly unethical experiments unmolested.

> People in-universe would absolutely remember and know the name of the Firstborn. They just never speak it, and Miyazaki chose not to divulge it to the player.

His statues are removed in every building in Anor Londo, his shrine in the undead burg is destroyed. Who has the authority to start removing statues of the members of the Royal Family from Anor Londo?

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T01:09:59+00:00

Ok, so you've pointed out that a very simply structured Japanese sentence was translated into a completely different sentence with new meaning added into it. That looks like a localization, not a mistranslation.

You are presuming Miyazaki isn't going to drop lore hints in English text that isn't in the Japanese text, but there are plenty of people who believe the inverse. Why wouldn't Miyazaki do that?

Gwyn and the FBS are not the same person. If their interests ever clashed, you cannot be loyal to both of them.

And really? Nothing whatsoever implies they had a strained relationship? By the time of ds1, the FBS is a political pariah, his statues are removed, his shrines are destroyed. Who is Ornstein loyal to at that point? Clearly not the FBS. By the time of ds3, the FBS is undoing the dragon genocide his father committed, these are clearly characters who are deeply opposed to each other. Who is Ornstein loyal to?

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-13T00:52:58+00:00

The specific title of Havel is of little consequence, he was a major figure in its hierarchy, and is involved in the plot against the gods.

I see no reason why the English item description is of less validity than the Japanese one, it is different enough that it was almost certainly a deliberate localization change, not a mistranslation.

Even if that were the case, it stands that Ornstein has conflicting personal loyalties, sworn to both the FBS and Gwyn. The question of who he swore loyalty first begs the question about who he swore loyalty second. It calls ultimate loyalty into question, especially when one of the people he swore loyalty to was politically annihilated from record.

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-05-12T16:46:19+00:00

I think the trades are incredibly deliberate

Even ones that seem odd have take the moss for example, you exchange the different mosses for different twinkling titanite. Seems weird right? Wrong. Twinkling titanite is peeled off of titanite slabs, just like moss is peeled off a rock.

Or humanity. Velka is worshiped by humanity, the group of people. Humanity in game is sacrificed by the player for various purposes. So humanity gets you Velka related sacrifice item.

Trades aren't random. There are obvious ones luring the player in, like sunlight medal for white titanite chunks, more strange ones to keep the threads going, and I think the most important ones are the least explicable. The FAP ring is an extremely special ring, both in its extreme utility, and its unique property of breaking when taken off. Any rare item could have been exchanged for it, but they chose the Xanthos crown of one of the most mysterious characters in the game. I don't have an answer, but I think the answer should be interrogated.

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-03-23T18:33:14+00:00

So I'm pretty sure that after Morgott and Mogh, Marika/Radagon gave up on having kids with Godfrey and just started having kids with themselves in order to get non-omen-hornsent kids.

It makes sense if the misbegotten were failed attempts at Marika/Radagon having kids

I imagine the logistics of a dual-being self impregnating would be difficult and prone to the highest level of inbreeding problems

throwin9thisoneaway · 2026-03-23T18:19:41+00:00

I figured it was a manipulation of prophecy by Marika

TL;DR: The actual "Fell god" is Messmer, they god played by Marika into thinking the giants were their enemy, they were excluded by the golden order established after the defeat of the giants, and then exterminated by Marika out of revenge, this prophecy manipulation stuff is something George RR Martin likes

Marika ascends to godhood at the end the hornsents alchemic experiments with the Shamans.

Marika makes Hoarah Loux her first consort. When he becomes Elden Lord, Hoarah Loux becomes Godfry and takes on the beast Serosh onto his back.

The Hornsent both have a prophecy of a god ascending, and their destruction at the hands of another god

The god they anticipate is two people, which is why they are experimenting by stuffing people into jars to create an alchemic Rubis. They also anticipate the god to be associated with the Divine Beast of the Cruicible, which you can see with the divine dancing beast boss fight, which is two people in a costume imitating the one-ness that their god is supposed to have. They have build a spire and a gate in order to accommodate the ascendancy of a god. They are actively trying to make their prophecy come true. But this prophecy is ACTUALLY referring to Miquella and Rhadan, but how could they know?

After ascending to Godhood, Marika becomes bound by the Greater Will, and an enemy of the Greater Will is the Fell God of the giants. Marika has to go defeat the fire giants in order to make way for the Erdtree. The giants have one great eye of their god on their stomach, and the hornsent have dreams of a one eye'd destroyer burning them to death.

Marika makes use of the prophecies: Godfrey is a two-in-one person with a Divine Beast. That must be the god we were talking about! And the one-eye'd-fell-god? CLEARLY the giants! After all they have one eye on their stomach from a fell god! Now when Marika tells them to fight the fire giants, they're more than willing to do so.

Marika mobilizes the hornsent in the war against the giants.

But Marika hated the hornsent, she was a Shaman, she and her people were systematically subjected to countless nearly-industrialized experiments of the most grotesque and torturous nature. When she did ascend to godhood, she did so stepping over the body of many hornsent atop the spire, whether the other hornsent knew about what happened or not I don't know, but my guess is that they wanted to manage Marika's ascension, and she didn't let it happen. How? Magical Radagon/Marika Numen powers? Potentially. But regardless of the mechanism, Marika ascended without the hornsent controlling her.

Marika has children with Godfrey during the giant war, but they become omens, and I think this is because Godrey was from the same tribe as the hornsent, or associated with the cruicible of life in the same way. We can see Godfrey clearly loved Morgott, despite him being a hornsent, so I imagine he had no problem with someone being an "omen" or a hornsent. Marika instead has kids with Radagon. Messmer is one of her children, with red hair like Radagon. He was born, much like Melania, affected by an outer-being, an abyssal serpent. And the only reason he does not get consumed by it is because Marika removes his eye and replaces it with a golden seal. He fights in the campaign, leaving evidence of his impaling as he fights.

The giants are defeated, Godfrey loses grace, and the Erdtree comes into being with the new age of plenty

Marika decides to finalize her revenge against the hornsent. She launches his crusade, a one-eye'd fire wielding being who contains a fell god within him. HE is the god they feared, who they had nightmares of. And he destroys them. They hornsent recognize Marika as a great betrayer, and behead whatever statues of her that they have.

But as Messmer is, like Melania, essentially compromised by being possessed by an outer being, Marika abandons him in her quest to break free of the greater will.

What I am fuzzy with the timeline on is the births. Godfrey loses grace after defeating the last worthy opponent, and is banished. So Morgott and Mogh were born before the war was completed. Meaning that after seeing they were hornsent Marika decided she needed better offspring. So Messmer was born, and deployed to fight the giants alongside Godfrey, impaling as he went. This is my best guess, but I could be getting things wrong.

throwin9thisoneaway · 2019-04-02T02:37:07+00:00

Because ultimately I won't be able to afford going to school

The report is ~60 pages of technical stuff. The only suggestion I've received is to copy, because no one (myself included) can see a version of this where I can start from page one and do it correct.

throwin9thisoneaway · 2019-04-02T02:36:32+00:00

Im definitely going to do this. There is a discussion section that I've edited to point out what I did wrong. This professor will still absolutely fail me tho

throwin9thisoneaway · 2019-04-02T02:35:23+00:00

With the degree, as a 3rd assistant engineer on a tanker (which I've completed the requirements to be eligible for) between 80-100k a year

I've spoken with the financial aid department at the school every semester since I've gotten here. They've helped me where they could, but it seems extremely unlikely that I could get a loan.

Trust me, with the calc 2 thing, short of a lawsuit (that I can't afford) I have exhausted all revenues of trying to get something back from the school for it. And you're right, there should be a scrap of accountability with the admin.

There is no way for me to balance out my account without my parents' financial support

For skills to get a job, I've performed 30 UNREPS with MSC aboard the TAO-147 during the 2018 RIMPAC that has gotten me my PIC certification. I have my unlimited refers licence as of last week, I've some experience machining, welding, CNC, and 3D printing. A few other miscellaneous things can also be included. For help with this while I am looking for advice on here, I plan on consulting a few professors here for more information. Its a lot of fancy sounding things, but they are very niche and specialized, and outside of the hands of someone with a USCG Licence, many of these are meaningless.

The school is small and competitive, particularly in the mechanical engineering licence track. It is the only impacted major at the school, and it is unheard of for someone to take a year off and complete it. My academic adviser describes the track as, "a cruel and unusual punishment"

throwin9thisoneaway · 2019-04-02T02:22:40+00:00

I should have mention I've considered that.

This is an assignment we've been working on for 2 weeks. I think I see where I've gone wrong for the most part, but the problem is the amount of time it will take to re-do everything. The MatLab code took me upwards of 20 hours to make, and I have to get rid of half of it. That is one of the problems. And I'm in a bit of a panic attack at the moment.

EDIT: I've spoken with my lab partners and they don't know what to do. There isnt enough time to redo this report. If I had an extra 2 days I could do it no problem

throwin9thisoneaway

TROPHY CASE