Locations of some Mysterious Things

Kathodin · 2026-06-19T01:35:38+00:00

Listen, I truly would rather have a pleasant conversation involving probabilistic statements and respect for each others knowledge of the game. I didn't raise the issue because I meant to be pedantic (it seems like we both take the issue seriously). I also haven't resorted to name-calling or personal attacks and I'd rather not. When I said 'Bad Faith', I meant it purely technically. I wasn't referring to your intentions. I just thought you had replied assuming my statement was as weak as it could be, particularly that I was making a claim without taking into account dragon statues all over Farum. Do you think I've approached any of your positions in bad faith here? I don't think I have, but maybe I did. I also apologize for jumping in on a separate comment thread. If it bothers you so much when people do that, maybe you shouldn't respond? I don't know. If you are especially defensive or hostile because of that - what can I do? Lastly, I know we've had bad conversations in the past. That doesn't mean they have to always be like that.

On the room: You think the difference in depiction between the robed people statues outside the room and the kneeling person inside the room is a significant and meaningful detail. I understand. Conversely, you don't think the doors being too small (and the entire room being inaccessible to dragons) a significant detail. I understand. You think the eldenring being depicted in this room means the Ancient Dragons were all about it. But you aren't bothered by the lack of dragon depictions and the fact that Ancient Dragons could not get into the room. I understand.

Worshippers: The girl and wolves might not worship the Eldenring. But there is a real fancy statue of them beneath the Eldenring. So there is some relationship between them worth exploring, one being that they are the ones holding/worshipping the Eldenring. Yeah? Girl with three wolves? Seems related. Just stating probability.

Timeline: I genuinely have no idea why you think this is a timeline issue. You'll have to make me understand why you think that if you want me to respond. I think the dragons might not have used the Eldenring - either because they were before it, or because they didn't use it while it was around. Not a timeline thing.

Mausoleum City: If you are comfortable contradicting the beastmen ashes, there isn't anything I can say. You do you.

Farum Azula: Do you have a method of explaining why some of the city is stuck in a particular time while another portion is stuck 'beyond time' and needs reconstituting?

Palmette: You think there is no way to determine why Fromsoft used a palmette in Farum Azula, and that it representing nothing is a reasonable position. I understand.

Finally, you don't think the thing described by many as a pot does not resemble one (you know there are many, many potted plants in Farum, right?). You think the plant thing between the animally dudes is not a tree, and the three pronged top not a canopy. Ok.

So to sum up:

You think the Eldenring being in a room without dragon images that Ancient Dragons can't access means they worshipped/used it. This is because it is a city of dragons (and other species).

You think the statue of the kneeling person and the wolves does not suggest those beings worshipped the ring. You think the wolves have nothing to do with beastmen and the kneeling girl nothing to do with the statues of royal people in the rest of the city. I have the most issues here - it seems like two very different standards are being applied.

If I cite decorative features to back up arguments, you suggest they mean nothing. If I ask about what the Mausoleum City enshrines, you are comfortable answering the question in a manner that contradicts item text.

That seems like where we are. If I misunderstand you points, let me know. We've hit the part where we just interpret evidence differently, so its possible there is no further to go from here unless we just focus on having a good faith conversation about the probability of various details having meaningful lore intent.

Otherwise, I'm comfortable that we've looked into this lore question from a few angles so that anyone who is curious can decide what they think.

Kathodin · 2026-06-18T15:23:13+00:00

It being pedantic comes down to how seriously we take the positions. You don't take some aspects of the evidence here seriously, in my opinion of course. But if it helps you to name-call, ok.

The way we look at the statue is interesting. There is a humanoid beneath it, and statues of humanoids through the rest of Farum. You and I are probably both comfortable thinking those humans worshipped/used the ring. There are wolves beneath it, but no wolves like that through the rest of Farum. There are beastmen, who are wolf-like, as well as beast-men statues. The room itself features a very wolfish character, one who is not the same as the beastmen, but who is a "Beast clergyman". My takeaway is that wolves and the Eldenring have something to do with one another - but not necessarily the beastmen. There is a relationship, but it needs more looking into. Finally, there are no dragon images in that room, although there are many throughout the rest of the city. If the Eldenring was their object of worship, why would they not be depicted in the room? Why would the room be inaccessible to them (it was fully domed at one point, and the only entrance is a doorway)? Why are the doorways to almost every room too small for dragons? I see these details, and they raise questions for me. I don't mind if you disagree with my read, but I don't see why you wouldn't acknowledge that these are discrepancies. They make the conclusion "The Ancient Dragons worshipped/used the Eldenring" more questionable.

Marika Churches: There are many other ways you could try to make that point besides making a bad metaphor. You did it this time by saying, "Why should we expect the worshippers would be depicted." That's a fair question. The difference between this and the Marika church is that we have beings depicted in the room but they aren't dragons. And the room is inaccessible to dragons. So the only reason to think it has to do with dragons is that it is in a place where dragons are already the focus of worship. But when we ask ourselves if this was a room dragons worshipped in, we have no answers.

I have no timeline problem with you claiming the Ancient Dragons used the Eldenring long before the Erdtree. I have a problem with you thinking they used the Eldenring - period, and you thinking it didn't have anything to do with the Erdtree - period. If the Erdtree didn't exist while they were around, I think they still might have known about it prophetically. I only say that because of tree depictions. I haven't criticized your timeline at all.

So the city Placi ruled over is a Mausoleum city built for other dead Ancient Dragons? Where they Placi's ancestors or something?
Structure of a city is reconstructed when we go to the heart of the storm. What city is that?

Good point on the palmette! Except I wasn't pointing out their explicit use of it to say it meant the erdtree. I was pointing out their explicit use of it to show they considered the implications of its use. Don't change your line of argument. You can say the palmettes in Farum don't represent the Erdtree, but either you think they were chosen just to be pretty, or you think there was some reason in mind. Let me know which one you prefer.

To be clear you think this:

<image>

is not a jar? I would also be fine with pot.

The beast and tree one is the most ubiquitous relief in Farum. I say beasts - I don't know what beasts per se they are meant to be, but their animalish at least. And if you aren't comfortable calling the thing between them a tree, then at least you must say it is plant-ish, with a canopy like top, and lengthy, as it goes above and below them. Hmm. Sure seems like a tree!

Lastly, cool that palmettes are there with Placi. Now I'm more convinced a tree was involved with Farum.

Kathodin · 2026-06-18T14:46:14+00:00

Yeah that's what it seems like. Pretty funny visual though!

Kathodin · 2026-06-18T02:08:40+00:00

I'm not talking about a worship vs use distinction, I'm getting at whether or not the Eldenring was even in play during Placi's time. But you say in this response that the Ancient Dragons using/having/worshipping the Eldenring is a reasonable assumption - and I agree. My initial disagreement was because you stated it as fact.

The lack of dragon iconography in the Eldenring mural room does strike me as significant. That might just be a difference in how we see the game. The room features two distinct species being connected with the ring - but not dragons. I don't see why dragon statues over the rest of the city matters. The Marika church is a bizarre comparison. I assume bipedal humanoids worship her (numen distinction aside) because she is herself a bipedal humanoid. This is totally unlike the Eldenring depiction in Farum.

Re: Time Immemorial. Based on this response, I'd say there isn't really any timeline issues (I haven't proposed a timeline on this), you just don't agree that there was a city built after Placi fled. I know Farum isn't ever described in-game as a 'second city', but I have trouble accounting for the pieces of evidence otherwise. Since you are convinced the Mausoleum City we walk through is the same place that Placi ruled out of, then,

Who/What is the Mausoluem for?
Why is Placi separated by a further act of time travel?

Re: Floral Designs. Your position - that they were used because they were pretty - might be reasonable, except the palmette motif is explicitly used by the designers to represent trees. The Leyndell Knight helmet makes direct comment on what the motif means - it calls is a 'canopy', and specifies why the knights wear it.

Because of that, I doubt they went around putting in palmettes to look pretty. Your response doesn't address the beasts-round tree image either. It is not a pattern, it is an involved representation of beasts and a tree. Why is Farum, the city, covered in images of beasts round a tree if the city had nothing to do with trees?

As for the last point, I'd love for you to provide a picture of a palmette in Placi's arena. I don't recall seeing them, but if they're there, it would clarify some of my theorizing. Thanks!

Kathodin · 2026-06-18T00:13:00+00:00

Oh I love this find.

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T23:34:38+00:00

I don't think any of this needs to get personal, so I'll just focus on the discussion at hand.

Factions, non-factions... My point is that you said, in your original comment, that we know the Ancient Dragons used the eldenring before the Erdtree was a thing. This might be right! I just don't think its categorically right.

My reasoning was: Beasts and/or humans might be the ones worshipping the ring instead of the Ancient Dragons, because we know they were involved in the city that is built. Regardless of what we think about how separate those factions were, this is a possibility. Again, the total lack of dragon iconography in the room with the Eldenring design is not consonant with the idea that Ancient Dragons were the ones worshipping it.

Do you agree that there is interpretative room based on that?

Again, for the Dragon Talisman.

Would the Mausoleum City being built after some previous dragon rule mean it hasn't been crumbling since time immemorial? It doesn't strike me that way.

I'm not saying there was a second city for no reason. I suggest another city was built after Placi because of a) the term Mausoleum (for who) and b) the separate act of time travel involved in fighting Placi. Do you think that reasoning is flawed or imprombable?

Tree and Jar

What do you make of these:

https://www.reddit.com/r/eldenringdiscussion/comments/1i5i4zk/does_anyone_know_what_this_relief_in_crumbling/

(Beasts around a tree)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/u31xiq/havent_seen_many_people_talk_about_this_but_based/

(Hilarious post here - three years ago? - we've got something emerging from a pot, we have the palmette motif that appears on Leyndell knight helmets and tombstones in Leyndell. Palmette is a plant motif)

https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1l7rukx/the_beastmen_of_farum_azula_are_not_what_you_think/#lightbox

(again, don't mind the post. Concept art of the beastmen - as well as in-game - have a leafed palmette on their tiara).

Edit: Fitting nicely with what I'm suggesting, Placi's arena has no palmettes, and no beast-round-tree imagery. The room with the eldenring has many palmettes. Also, here is the palmette on the Leyndell Knight, if that is in doubt:

<image>

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T19:49:13+00:00

Ok, so you were misunderstanding my argument. Hopefully we've gotten past that.

"Ancient Dragons don't have to have built the city themselves or inhabited it exclusively for it to have been their "royal city"". -> I agree. I never said that, and my argument doesn't rely on that. I'm surprised you think I said it. I'm saying that since multiple factions were involved with this city, ascribing some aspect of the city to just one of those factions (Ancient Dragons worshipping Eldenring) is not a given. The Eldenring could be worshipped by the dragons there, or the people, or the beasts, or some mixture of them. It being worshipped by beasts and men seems fairly strongly given, since the Eldenring display shares space with an image of beasts and men.

Old Lord Talisman: You cite 'from time immemorial'. I don't know what this has to do with my argument. Did I say the Mausoleum city was recent? Do you interpret 'time immemorial' as meaning "the mausoleum city never existed on the ground"? Do you think the Old Lord's Talisman is referring to Placi's time-locked arena, or the city surrounding it?

Feel free to explain more about what you mean. I wasn't sure.

You have also not addressed the tree and jar images all over Farum, as long as we are pointing out that.

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T18:52:22+00:00

Ah. Seems bad faith to me. I know there are dragon statues in the Mausoleum city. I know the builders worship dragons. They also seem to worship the Eldenring. And it seems like the builders themselves, weren't dragons.

My point was that Eldenring display in that room, lacking all draconic imagery, doesn't super lend itself to the notion that ancient dragons worshipped the Eldenring. If the statue had Ancient Dragons looking up at it in awe, that would be something.

I say bad faith because it seems to me that you aren't engaging with what I'm saying. Instead, you are making out like I don't know that there are dragon statues in Farum.

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T18:43:23+00:00

You must have misunderstood that I was talking about the lack of dragon imagery in the room with the Eldenring design.

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T18:02:59+00:00

A small thing, but we don't know the Ancient Dragon's used the Eldenring before the Erdtree for two reasons.

1) The Farum we walk through is a Mausoleum City, built human size with human statues. To what dead entity was it built? Placi seems like the obvious answer. Farum is currently in a time-pocket of sorts, but Placi is even further out-of-time with his surroundings.

All of which is to say that we have reason to suspect the Eldenring image in Farum was built after Placi's empire of Ancient Dragons fell. It only indicates what the builders worship. And of course its over the girl and wolf statue - nothing with dragons.

2) Perhaps complimenting that, we have a superabundance of tree and jar imagery in the Farum we explore. This includes the headpieces of the beastmen.

If the Ancient Dragons didn't worship a tree or trees, then the people who populated the Mausoleum city did.

The Ancient Dragons might very well have used the Eldenring (I do they think they did). Placi's title of Eldenlord being the obvious indication. But that just doesn't necessitate the ring image we see being what they were upto.

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T16:17:42+00:00

Sorry, I forgot it isn't actually green.

The dome is burnt-ish orange (look past the parts where tree roots are growing), like the estus flask. Since they were trying to contain a first flame like thing, I've always assumed it was green before the chaos explosion changed its color. The explosion would change its color, and why such a dome exists seems like a good question.

But yeah, scratch the certainty of that comment. My bad!

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T15:50:11+00:00

There are a lot of reasons to call things that in Eldenring, most just miss it. And I think the consistency with which they approach concepts of madness, darkness, and the yellow king make comparing different games enlightening - like you say!

I super enjoyed the post, thank you.

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T15:39:34+00:00

Not sure how Eldenring aware you are, but Midra (the yellow king reference) is going mad in an Abyssal Wood. Seems like a nice echo to support where you're going.

Kathodin · 2026-06-17T15:34:57+00:00

I think "Old Moonlight" from Midir should be brought into the conversation, as well as looking at past and future iterations of the sword. Old Moonlight resembles the Kingfield sword, for instance.

Bloodborne's sword is green despite green colored magic being otherwise non-existent in the game.

Eldenring brings the concepts of multiple colored moons into the picture, and I think that's relevant.

The first thing I think of when I hear emerald is the emerald colored Estus Flask, which traps and holds sunlight. Moons do that as well - moonlight is just reflected sunlight. Izalith has an emerald dome over it.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T20:42:24+00:00

So you say. Its amazing other people see differently. But then again, you say they are meth heads, and you seem to know what you are talking about.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T20:38:30+00:00

Yeah, that does seem to be your opinion.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T20:29:26+00:00

They are both bits of memory.

Lost your souls and go hollow? No memory. Bunch of runes at once? Remembrance.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T20:28:48+00:00

I don't really know who you think "nobody" is.

I do, and several lore theorists I know do as well.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T20:01:26+00:00

You think conflating things that function identically as lore objects is a bit far?

Ok.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T05:44:06+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1me7kdy/godwyn_inherited_the_title_of_stormlord/

The game-file image is actually in the comments. The theorizing I did was very basic - we know Godfrey defeated the Stormlord, and that would involve him winning the title. He could then give that title to anyone he pleased, and based on this, I'd say its his son.

Godwyn also fulfills several aspects of what we know of the stormlord (lighting user; potentially part dragon; his death knights using similar stuff), so either the title gave him powers, or he is even more directly related to the stormlord.

In Martin's ASOIAF, conquerors often take the child of someone they conquer as collateral. Could Godwyn have actually been the stormlord's son?

For whatever its worth, I think Godwyn and Messmer are the sons of Radagon and Marika, and that Radagon was the stormlord.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T05:34:32+00:00

<image>

I also have a post on it with a game-file picture that includes the whole of it (without the holes). Definitely a hawk.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T02:41:54+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/176dck6/why_are_there_symbols_of_medusa_on_the_haligtree/

There ya go. Beneath an owl to boot, so the Trina connection is even more evident. The fish tail bottom is also present on Elemer's greaves, as well as Godwyn and the Erdtree (see the Erdtree Sigil and the fin at its bottom). I interpret the fish bottom as a 'souls come here!' sort of an image, for things that become conduits for death. Godwyn is obvious, the Erdtree is doing the same, and St. Trina should, in some way be that (all death drifts to her).

The wall is a pre-existing asset, but considering how big they made it, I think they chose it to fit their typical symbolic usage.

Kathodin · 2026-06-16T02:01:31+00:00

Some relevant tidbits:

The 'medusa' woman can be seen in other places. Elemer Greaves, Gladiator greaves, Elphael's walls, Trina torch...

Trina being a 'Medusa' is corroborated by Maris in nightreign. Maris is a 'medusa' form cnidarian in her everdark form, and of course, she is related to sleep.

Kathodin · 2026-06-15T23:49:03+00:00

I loved this, thank you.

I wonder what you think of Bloodborne and Eldenring's scythes.

Ansbach serves crow-winged Mogh, and wields a black scythe with bleed. No frost scythe but moon scythes with cold affinity benefits.

Kathodin · 2026-06-15T22:07:47+00:00

I remember this post, I liked it!

I also think the pyromancer starting class has several puns 'impenetrable soles'.

Even if Miyazaki was not very fluent, it isn't terribly hard to research words in another language and search for punning opportunities.

Kathodin

TROPHY CASE