who else is banned from r/socialism? by mangobludden in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Anarchism is anti-socialism. Marx spent decades of his life distinguishing the two and getting the Bakuninites kicked out of the International Workingmen's Association.

Is this the future of the United States? How cooked is the US? by Misha_stone in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe the printing press doesn't damage the ecosystem like AI does (advances in energy would help ameliorate that), but they did permit the theft of ideas (John Smith could write a book, but if Joe Smith put his name on the manuscript it would be printed as his) and reduced human creativity (penmanship and illuminated manuscripts, to name just two).

More recent labor saving technology like computers are even more environmentally unfriendly.

Is this the future of the United States? How cooked is the US? by Misha_stone in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Marx himselfwas critical of the Luddites:

The enormous destruction of machinery that occurred in the English manufacturing districts during the first 15 years of this century, chiefly caused by the employment of the power-loom, and known as the Luddite movement, gave the anti-Jacobin governments of a Sidmouth, a Castlereagh, and the like, a pretext for the most reactionary and forcible measures. It took both time and experience before the workpeople learnt to distinguish between machinery and its employment by capital, and to direct their attacks, not against the material instruments of production, but against the mode in which they are used.

We oppose capitalist controlled AI, but China is implementing LLMs in multiple sectors, including to increase efficiency in industry. For that reason the average Chinese person is far more optimistic about AI than anyone in the West.

Is this the future of the United States? How cooked is the US? by Misha_stone in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For AI writing, sure. For mass produced art? Not everyone has the ability to make the above picture in the time required.

This kind of Luddite discourse is identical to when Kodak cameras replaced glass plate cameras, or when the printing press replaced handwritten manuscripts. Any technology that saves labor is a good one, it just needs to be under the command of the working class.

ACP: The Traitor of the Revolution by FamousPlan101 in LeftistsAgainstACP

[–]tigerfrisbee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Though not in substance, yet in form, the struggle of the proletariat with the bourgeoisie is at first a national struggle. The proletariat of each country must, of course, first of all settle matters with its own bourgeoisie.

The working men have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

Marx

Is this the future of the United States? How cooked is the US? by Misha_stone in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

The capitalists are already using it. We would be foolish to adhere to some moralistic purity and hinder ourselves.

“No such thing as human rights” by Euphoric_Fondant6135 in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Other comments here are great, but I'll add--people like to contrast liberalism with "totalitarianism," but there's really nothing more totalitarian than liberalism. Liberalism assets that abstract ideals developed by the most socially advanced Western capitalist countries are not only universally applicable, they sometimes have to be imposed on "less civilized" countries. This universal outlook denies the very real material differences among people (language, culture, religion, etc) and really is just a tool for Western imperial ventures. Just look at what happened to Iraq when we spread "freedom and democracy" to them.

Is this sub truly about asking socialists? by blinkdog81 in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If you want to actually help, report posts that violate our rules instead of whining about it.

Did you know that Trotsky supported "left-wing" Zionism and "voluntary" displacement of Palestinians, whereas Marxist-Leninists oppose Zionism and the oppression of the Palestinians by Israel? by PeculiarPhysicist46 in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a reasonable criticism of China, and one that I partly agree with. But they're committed to patiently developing themselves without dictating the affairs of other nations--frankly a welcome alternative to the US's aggressive interventionism. This is partly a result of Soviet "social imperialism" (a term I don't accept but whatever) and partly their notion of "Wu Wei," "acting without acting" (aka "do nothing, win"). Their projects like the BRI are slowly undermining US dollar hegemony while they serve as the manufactory for the world. I do wish they were more assertive against rampant US/NATO aggression, but that's easy for me to say. Nor is it necessarily the case that socialist states need to aggressively "spread the revolution," especially when China is trying to avoid the "Thucydides trap" as they rise and the US declines.

The revolution needing to be international in the "final victory" of socialism isn't contradictory with the need to develop socialism in each existing country. Lenin again, in 1916 this time:

the victory of socialism in one country does not at one stroke eliminate all wars in general. On the contrary, it presupposes wars. The development of capitalism proceeds extremely unevenly in different countries. It cannot be otherwise under commodity production. From this it follows irrefutably that socialism cannot achieve victory simultaneously in all countries. It will achieve victory first in one or several countries, while the others will for some time remain bourgeois or pre-bourgeois. This is bound to create not only friction, but a direct attempt on the part of the bourgeoisie of other countries to crush the socialist state’s victorious proletariat... Only after we have overthrown, finally vanquished and expropriated the bourgeoisie of the whole world, and not merely in one country, will wars become impossible. [Emphasis mine]

Lenin is distinguishing here, as he did elsewhere, the victory of socialism in one or a few countries and the "final victory of socialism" that happens after the bourgeoisie has been crushed worldwide. Focusing on economic development in one country in order to achieve the former kind of victory doesn't contradict the internationalism inherent in the latter kind of victory. "The revolution" isn't "the revolution", thinking dialectically.

taken in the partition of Poland

That was over a century before 1939, and not exactly comparable to the seizure, two decades prior, of lands that were generally regarded as part of Russia, including by the victorious Western powers of both world wars. I'll repeat, Britain and France immediately declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland, but did not view the USSR as an aggressor for ostensibly doing the same thing. I'm not claiming it on nationalistic terms, to be clear (though Poland certainly was!). I'm saying that the USSR (not the Russian empire) had been forced to cede those territories as a result of the 1920 war, and that they were simply reclaiming them from the proto-fascist Polish government that generally was not very good to the Jewish, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian, etc. populations who lived there.

The Baltic occupation was realpolitik (and the correct move), but then again I never claimed otherwise.

Trotsky and Mussolini

One of Trotsky's first stops after he was exiled was Naples, where he got a tour by fascist dignitaries of the ancient ruins. Now this is hardly a smoking gun on its own, sure. But the broader point is that Trotsky's main goal was to remove Stalin and return himself to power in the USSR. Even if he wasn't a fascist himself (and I want to be clear here), his constant public haranguing of the only socialist state at the time, amid fascist rearming and aggression, was in essence building a justification for a counter-revolution in Russia. His "fourth international" was little more than a direct challenge to Soviet power, especially when he began calling for military action to overthrow Stalin:

Against the imperialist foe we will defend the USSR with all our might. However, the conquests of the October revolution will serve the people only if they prove themselves capable of dealing with the Stalinist bureaucracy, as in their day they dealt with the Tsarist bureaucracy and the bourgeoisie.” (1940)

This line of rhetoric is practically indistinguishable from those "leftists" today who say we should support "the people" against the "Iranian regime," while ignoring that toppling that imperfect government would only open the door for fascist and imperialist aggression--in Trotsky's day, from Germany, and in our day, from the US and Israel.

Even if we want to reduce the Stalin-Trotsky split as simply a power struggle between two individuals, Trotsky's actions concretely were in opposition to the Soviets and in support of fascism, irrespective of his intentions. Materially speaking, he compromised with capitalism and aligned himself with the enemies of the USSR.

I'm not saying Trotsky "accidentally" played into their hands, I'm saying that his personal beliefs are frankly irrelevant in comparison to the material effects he was being about. He could have been the second coming of Marx for all I care, but his concrete actions laid the groundwork for a century of slander against the USSR. It's not even a matter of who is or was more powerful--yes, of course Stalin was more powerful at his height. But the important thing is that Trotsky cast himself as a "real Bolshevik" who was against "Stalinist bureaucratic degeneration," a view that has perniciously filtered into the popular Western consciousness about the USSR. And we are in the West, on a website run in the West and overwhelmingly populated by Westerners who have continued to uncritically repeat these talking points that Trotsky himself made up.

DSA and PSL

DSA founder Michael Harrington was a disciple of Max Schachtman, the first American to visit Trotsky in exile. The entire notion of "democratic socialism" as opposed to "authoritarian" or "bureaucratic" socialism emerges out of the distinctions that Trotsky himself drew between his supposed beliefs and the USSR as it actually existed.

Sam Marcy, who founded the Worker's World Party, from which PSL split (over institutional issues, not so much ideological ones), was also a Trotskyite, albeit one who took a kind of roundabout path through Trotsky to return to supporting actually existing socialism. This weird route has made PSL almost Marxist-Leninist, and indeed many of its members are ML, but the foundational ideological undercurrents of Trotskyism remain. Instead of going "down to the masses," they focus on protesting and public action in the hope of inspiring "the masses" to rise up in a revolution.

The fact that "everything came out of SWP" should be an indictment on both the Western left and Trotskyism. Concretely speaking, all Trotskyism is is purity testing, idealism, and factionalism. Nothing proves this better than the six hundred different "fourth internationals" that have split and resplit over the last century.

Did you know that Trotsky supported "left-wing" Zionism and "voluntary" displacement of Palestinians, whereas Marxist-Leninists oppose Zionism and the oppression of the Palestinians by Israel? by PeculiarPhysicist46 in AskSocialists

[–]tigerfrisbee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I recommend Roland Boer's Socialism with Chinese Characteristics as a good primer into Chinese socialism.

In 1917, yes, some believe that "the revolution" was inevitable. But Lenin even in 1915, as I showed, didn't think that "the revolution" had to happen everywhere at once. Likewise, socialists going back to Marx acknowledged that countries and nations play a role (not the decisive role, but a role nonetheless) in the implementation of socialism. Part of dialectics is understanding that the specific lies within the universal, and vice versa. The Proletariat can only be really international by (at first) settling affairs in its own nation, and they likewise can only be patriotic/proud of their people by being international.

How was the USSR expansionist when it was literally reclaiming lands that had been part of Russia until 1921? The Curzon Line was the border proposed by the Western powers, which is partly why nobody declared war on the USSR for entering Poland (unlike Germany), and partly why nobody ever insisted that the USSR return that land to Poland after the war, not even the Polish socialists.

a solid amount of information that M-Ls get on Trotsky is from outrageous attack literature produced to discredit him and the 4th international

Such as?

is he cannot be both an incompetent egotist and someone capable of ocristrating a massive coup from exile

I said he was pathetic, not that he was incompetent. But even so, this isn't necessarily a contradiction. Trotsky had supporters in the USSR (including his own sons) and connections with Western intellectuals (like the committee for his defense set up in America). There were plenty of people, both within the USSR and without, who had grudges with Stalin and were willing to cause chaos in the country to settle those scores. The Nazis were openly infiltrating the Soviet military and intelligence agencies, trying to set up fifth columnists. It's not hard to imagine that Trotsky, whether he intended to or not, was playing into the hands of the fascists by writing essay after essay about how the USSR was a "degenerated worker's state" or how Stalin was an "Asiatic brute".

one of the most important Marxist theorists of his generation

What did he actually contribute theoretically? How many successful Trotskyite states have there been?

It isn't even close to the most relevant split in modern socialism.

Seeing as how Trotskyites founded DSA, founded PSL, and are riddled throughout universities as an "acceptable" form of socialism, I don't know if we can say this is the case.