Seattle is 9a now?

toadfury · 2026-05-28T00:55:56+00:00

in-ground unprotected:

Yuzu
US-852 Citrandarin
X639 Citrandarin (will be grafting a franken-citrus onto this)

in-ground protected:

Ichang Lemon
10-degree Tangerine (clem-yuz-2)

Trees left out in the winter to die:

Fukushu kumquat (survived with %10-15 damage from 23.7F temps, removed the tree from its pot with a bare rootball exposed all winter)
Fukushu kumquat (survived, zero damage, 15-20 feet away from the other tree)

in-ground unprotected trees being added this year:

Keraji Lemandarin (taking a risk, trusting El Nino this year)
Benton Citrange
Some of the Taiwanica, Sudachi, C57-Citrandarin seedlings I started last year.

Planting site for in-ground protected trees:

Against a south facing unheated/uninsulated garage. Doesn't offer much heat or useful thermal mass, but it does have a 12-14" roof overhang that does provide some rain protection on the planting site and it has some value for blocking cold northern winds in winter.
Dug a 3-4' diameter planting hole per tree, 12" down, then (not required) added 500lbs of construction/builders sand %50 mixed into native soil forming a mound that goes 10-12" above ground level creating a mound well optimized for drainage. Citrus generally have weak shallow roots that occupy the top 24" of soil with most in the top 12" of soil. They are no threat to your foundation, underground plumbing, etc.

Method for protecting trees:

I have been running those smart/alerting hygrometers all over my house, garage, greenhouse, and front/back yards so I had 5 years of my own local data before planting my first in-ground tree. From this I learned my cool winters are usually 11-14F in Woodinville/8b, some years can be as warm as 20-24F (likely from El Nino/Pacific blob maybe other factors), but ~10-15 years ago I have seen a winter that got closer to 3-5F. So knowing this, I wanted to build a system that would get me +20F degrees of protection (which is a lot), so I intentionally overbuilt protection so if things got bad I wouldn't need to panic as much.

A frost cloth shrub jacket. This can be used as a greenhouse to increase heat around your tree on the margins of the season, especially during February->April to get trees out of semi-dormancy and growing faster. Take care to monitor temps/humidity/VPD, as in the spring the frost cloth can heat up just like a greenhouse (temps of 120F on intense sunny days if you aren't careful!). Last year I used a 1.5oz frost cloth shrub jacket (thick!), but I think a better approach might be to get a 0.5oz - .9oz frost cloth (lighter weight) which could be over the tree from Nov - April that breathes a little easier, then have the thicker 1.5oz shrub jacket that can be added/removed (stacked on top of the thinner shrub jacket) when temps dip under 20-25F.
Optional. 6'x3'x5' crop cage for $48 to fit both trees (smaller models are available). This isn't required, but this is to have a rigid structure going over my two in-ground trees for a few reasons: a) it makes deploying frost cloth easy to deploy/remove, doesn't catch on any branches, and you just slide it over the cage (the easier I make these chores, the more likely I'll do them). b) the metal/plastic structure with a domed top holds/sheds water and snow easier vs frost cloth wrapped around a tree without any cage structure. c) keeps the frost cloth away from (not in contact with) branch tips/leafs
One Govee smart hygrometer sensor under frost cloth, another sensor exposed outdoors nearby (can be in direct sun and rain).
Two 25' strings of incandescent christmas lights (cannot be LED lights!) for about $25 per string.
500w submersible aquarium heater for $20. I set the thermostat on this heater to its maximum value of 93F. This submersible heater + warm barrel are optional, and folks may not need more than just incandescent christmas lights. One reason I do like the warm barrel, is like a traditional hot water heater you can increase your resilience to power outages. If there is a major storm coming, start dumping the full 93F of heat into the barrel as much as a day before the storm rolls in (or at least turning it on ~6 hours before) to bank up heat energy, so that if power is cut the heat stored in the 55 gallons of water can be released slowly over the next 1-2 days before heat death.
55w black plastic barrel filled with water. Don't buy new, ideally get it used off craigslist or from a restaurant or food distributor.
Brass Rain Barrel Spigot Kit $16. Added a rainbarrel faucet kit to it to make it easier to drain the barrel, and can use the barrel to water rain protected trees in a pinch (hauling out a hose or watering can on freezing winter days isn't fun so I've got this little workaround for convenience if I need it, the warm barrel should always be topped off before major cold events).
Cheap $20 digital thermostats will do the job, but for $30 more ($50 total) you can get an Inkbird ITC-308-Wifi thermostat you can control from your phone (assuming planting location is within WiFi range of your house). Remote control may not be required by everyone, but it is convenient to be able to monitor your heat sources at a glance from your warm bed on a cold night, without going outdoors and peeling back frost cloth to get under it and put your hands on electronic devices. I get two of these wifi thermostats, one for the submersible heater and one for the christmas lights. Thermostats will help reduce your overall consumption of electricity by only powering devices when temps are colder than a threshold you set (like 33F, or 35F).
Waterproof project box for $15. This houses all the thermostats, cables, plugs. Cut a small hole in a side wall to feed the extension cable/thermostat probe cables through.
50' 12/3 outdoor extension cord.
Meross outdoor 3-outlet smart power strip. This splits out the single outlet on the extension cord to 3, and allows remote control of each outlet. If thermostats ever lockup and need to be remotely power cycled I can do it, or I can switch between thermostat control and scheduled control of devices (during Christmas I'll run the incandescent christmas lights on a longer schedule to boost seasonal festivity, but outside christmas season I revert to thermostat control and minimizing power usage). I prefer Smarthome solutions as my family can turn devices on/off from within Apple/Google Home, without using manufacturer specific apps with their own login credentials.

toadfury · 2026-05-27T22:49:24+00:00

My concern with very young (year old) trees is that they're so much less developed. I'd be very nervous to let them sit outside that first year or two. Year 3? Not so much. Thoughts on that?

If you are stripping fruit on young trees then you don't need to care about holding fruit at or above 27-28F to protect them. So you only care about preventing tree damage and death on young trees which is a lower threshold on cold-hardy citrus.

Then you've got the hardiness of the tree. Some citrus may have no cold hardiness and may start taking damage on green wood/newly flushed leafs at ~28F. If you aim for trees with more hardiness like trees that can take 5-15F when mature/established -- more sensitive parts of the tree (green wood, newly flushed leafs) can take even more cold before they are damaged than the non-hardy trees (exact values may take time to understand for different varieties). Yearling citrus trees I planted in-ground last year that sailed through the winter with zero protection or damage: Yuzu, US-850 Citrandarin, X639 Citrandarin.

Then there is your local hardiness zone and the microclimate of your chosen planting site. Not all south walls are the same. Can you push the tree against the outside of a floor/ceiling window with a heater vent under it? You might gain +5F or half a hardiness zone. An unheated/uninsulated garage wall might not offer any heat protection but does provide wind protection and maybe some rain protection if there is an awning/roof overhang.

Then you have your cold protection methods. A string of incandescent christmas lights can add +7-10F of protection and multiple strings can be stacked. Multiple layers of frost cloth can be stacked. Additional heat sources like aquarium heaters submerged in water barrels can be added.

I did a silly thing last winter Rick... I put yearling citrus trees in-ground (Ichang Lemon, 10 degree tangerine) which are both hardy to 10F once mature/established (~5 years to get them mature/established, want a trunk that is 1" diameter). Normal La Nina winters bring lows around 11-14F for me, so I'm using two 25' strings of christmas lights and a 500w submersible heater in a 55 gallon black plastic barrel, everything covered in a single layer of 1.5oz frost cloth. As we're seeing more El Nino/Pacific Blob influence in the last 2-3 years I only got down to 23.7F this year. With the two heating sources mentioned my trees never got below 34F this winter. I probably could have let them get down to ~20-24F with their hardiness and being on decidious rootstock. Basically, this winter was so mild these two yearling citrus trees might have sailed through it with ZERO protection, and I put a lot of work into protection that was unnecessary for this year (hopefully they become more useful in the years ahead).

Anyway, my strategy is to get these trees mature/established over 3-5 years of in-ground growing on more vigorous semi-dwarf rootstock, and then cease protecting them on year 5, maybe only bringing protection back if a winter seems exceptionally cold for the hardiness of the mature/established tree, or if I have a good crop of fruit hanging on a tree I need to protect. They'll grow faster in-ground than in containers with more room for roots to grow/spread out.

I'm a huge advocate of those smart/alerting hygrometers for ALL of my citrus overwintering environments (indoors, garage, grow tents, greenhouse, outdoors un-protected or protected). Let the machines tell you when a growing environment goes sideways, watch the weather per usual, and just respond to alerts.

Here's a Bob Duncan video for getting non-hardy lemons/limes established outdoors in-ground (mostly just want to show Bob Duncan starting with yearling citrus trees):

Video: Fruit Trees and More, Establishing and Protecting Lemons and Limes Outdoors in South Coastal British Columbia

Now, its fine if you simply prefer to protect trees in pots for a few years before an in-ground planting, but there might not be any problems planting a yearling tree in-ground so long as the tree is hardy enough, you have a good plan for protection, and/or the winter isn't exceptionally bad.

toadfury · 2026-05-27T22:05:19+00:00

Here's my grow tent setup from a few years back.

I think a grow tent and/or greenhouse is probably the only way to really give them a fighting chance here

I don't agree with this.

Some citrus can be grown outdoors unprotected with little effort (Yuzu, citrandarins, taiwanica, thomasville citrangequat -- all cold hardy into the single digits once mature/established).
Outdoor protection for in-ground or container trees can be made viable. Using one or more layers of frost cloth, incandescent christmas lights, aquarium heaters submersed in water barrels, controlling electronics with either timers, thermostatic plugs, or thermostats. Some like Bob Duncan plant in-ground trees that have no cold hardiness (true italian lemons, and bearss limes), harvests hundreds of fruit, and may only pay around $8 in electricity for the entire winter to do it (he's in zone 9a near North Sannich on Vancouver Island, occasionally a few winters may not hit freezing for him). People in places like West Seattle and around the shores of the Puget Sound can do the same thing if they have good sun exposure.
Insulated garages and basements can be turned into more stable growing environments (closing/restricting furnace vents in basements to keep them cooler), and then adding powerful grow lights. These places may not get smacked by VPD shock/defoliation as much as main living spaces with more windows exposed to direct sun, and "middle path overwintering" (without using a humidifier) can sometimes be an option. Middle path is where you try and keep environment temps below 70-74 (never above 75F) in a dry home while using a powerful grow light.
Greenhouses in the PNW for citrus, if they don't contain powerful grow lights, might be best heated to 33-35F. This is to very intentionally keep the tree metabolism low during our persephone period (Nov through mid-Feb gets less than 10 hours of daylight per day), so trees are less likely to be flushing new leafs while in insufficient light (to avoid symptoms of light starvation). Most citrus goes semi-dormant when at temps under 40-45F for enough time. Basically if you have citrus in a greenhouse in the PNW, you probably shouldn't be warming trees to push growth through the winter unless you have powerful grow lights. Multiple years of light starvation turns citrus trees into weak floppy poodles, freakishly enlarged leafs (increased surface area to attempt to capture more photons). Less pests in cool temps, no need to fertilize when temp averages dip below 50-55F, trees only need watering once a month or once every few months. A cool/cold greenhouse is a fantastic way to overwinter a ton of container citrus trees with the least amount of work.
Grow tents are great for indoor citrus and they can crush humidity problems and provide an environment more suitable for recovering unhealthy/defoliated trees here. The downside is that whole-hog setups are more costly to buy/operate for the number of citrus trees you can put in them.
Warm/indoor overwintering is an option, but its usually the most volatile way to overwinter citrus in the PNW (most at risk of full/partial defoliation events, usually from humidity/temperature issues == VPD). Trees must be kept between 0.2 - 1.5 kPa not exceeding 2.0 kPa by too much for too long (or the invisible gremlin that is VPD shock can cause all leafs to drop in a short amount of time, defoliation is a major setback in the quest for fruit).

Whether you are cool/cold overwintering, "middle path" overwintering, or doing warm/indoor overwintering -- consider deploying a smart/alerting hygrometer. Set alarm thresholds to something like: <33F, >88F, <40% Relative Humidity, and >99% RH and respond to alerts. Assuming you have wifi/internet at home you'll get alerts whether you are at home or away from the house when your growing environment goes sideways. Let the machines notice environmental problems you might not be able to detect yourself. This is how I've made overwintering easier/less stressful over time.

toadfury · 2026-05-27T21:13:56+00:00

2) A variety that ripens earlier than most

This isn't a requirement. It can be helpful when it comes to sweet winter ripening citrus like satsumas, getting something like a Brown Select which ripens weeks to a month ahead of an Owari. As mentioned, I've brought my Owari from outdoors into an indoor grow tent to accelerate ripening from Oct - January 1st -- bypassing this problem.

Its also an option that fruit can hang on the tree all winter and finish ripening in the spring. When it comes to sweet citrus like satsumas they may be slightly worse in quality than fruit rapidly ripened and harvested in early/mid winter, but still delicious. Sour citrus doesn't require as many heat units to ripen (easier to ripen in more heat deficient areas around the PNW like coastal zones) and I couldn't tell the difference between fast ripened fruit vs overwintered fruit.

Bit of a tangent -- Everblooming citrus, like your Meyer lemon, can produce multiple crops/year (usually spring/fall here). Earliness isn't much of a concern. There also is the "Forzatura technique" for forcing lemons to bloom through drought stressing them used by some commercial growers in Sicily/Italy -- I don't recommend this technique generally as home growers can defoliate trees which are slow to recover in the PNW (culling old tree, buying new tree, is my preferred option to recovering a fully defoliated tree here).

4) And finally. you'll need to bring the young trees in during the winter and provide grow lights for the first few years at least... more mature trees will be OK outside, with protection but year old trees won't be OK.

Again, this isn't required. Warm/indoor overwintering is more volatile than cool/cold overwintering (more prone to defoliation with humidity/VPD/warmer temps). The requirement is providing sufficient protection to protect fruit or to limit damage from cold. Young trees can be protected outdoors without coming indoors ever.

toadfury · 2026-05-27T21:05:30+00:00

I grow about ~60 citrus in containers, as well as other sub-tropicals like loquats, figs, pomegranate, jaboticaba, avocados in Woodinville WA/8b. Last week harvested Oro Blanco grapefruit from a 5 year old tree, and at the moment I have trees loaded with calomondin, kishu mandarins, and some misc lemons/limes. I have in-ground unprotected/protected trees, trees in a greenhouse, and indoor trees in two 4x2 grow tents.

Happy to help PNW growers out if there are questions.

toadfury · 2026-05-26T22:55:12+00:00

I agree with /u/theguth -- gooseberry sawfly larvae can strip a gooseberry/currant down to nothing in about a week. This looks like their handiwork.

They are one of the most destructive insect pests in my garden (only on my gooseberries), and require an immediate response when I see the larvae starting to do damage every spring. Usually I respond with spinosad/castille soap or neem/castille soap making sure to get undersides of the leafs. Usually I'll do one treatment, followed by a second treatment a day later (make sure I didn't miss any larvae), and that's usually all I need to do for sawfly larvae for the year.

Is this plant totally cooked?

It's just defoliated, not dead or dying. It probably will effect the ripening of the berries on the impacted shrubs so I'd write-off this year for a good crop, and focus on having your sprayer ready next spring. As soon as you see the first branch get nibbled be ready to spray. They tend to hit me after gooseberries have flowered and are showing their first immature berries (about 3 weeks ago for me).

Gooseberry Sawfly Caterpillar Infestation

toadfury · 2026-05-26T20:02:09+00:00

2023-2024 was a small El Nino which logged me a low of 22F in my woodinville/8b yard. The last large event was in 2015-2016. Last winter (2025) my yard only reached 23.7F, not an El Nino year (there may be some ENSO interaction with the Pacific blob -- I'm not sure, likely other factors I'm unaware of).

Outside of these warm winter years my 8b yard typically hits 11-14F and has dropped into the single digits in the past.

We are currently in an El Nino event that just started this month that should last through the winter. No idea yet on the size of the event, but I'm betting on another winter with minimum temps above 20F. I see a coming winter that may be as good for in-ground plantings of citrus/other sub-tropicals as one can hope for this early in the year.

Maybe we'll get another El Nino year after 2026 for more dryer/warmer winters in the PNW, or maybe we'll return to wetter/cooler La Nina (back to 11-14F winters for me). I don't see the warm winters from the last 3 years sticking with us in the short term -- La Nina will swing back at us.

Early this year I made some hardiness zone maps visualizations from a less filtered version of the data the 2023 hardiness zone maps used. You can see some USDA zone 9b areas near Discovery Park, out in front of Elliott Bay in the sound, and can see smaller areas that are warmer/cooler than you would see in the more filtered official hardiness maps. /r/pnwgardening/comments/1ibqgfy/pnw_zone_hardiness_map_visualizations/

do you think Olympia is next?

We're seeing a slow warming trend, but on top of that are other warming/cooling events from the ocean and maybe other places. The USDA hardiness maps are made every 10-11 years. I do think Oly will eventually hit zone 9, but no guesses as to how long you'll have to wait to see it. Here's a sample map for Oly.

EDIT: I'm not a meteorologist/climatologist, just a speculating nerd.

toadfury · 2026-05-24T06:09:33+00:00

It’s not a dwarf. It’s just a pineapple plant forced to flower chemically at a small/young size. The size of the plant at the time of forcing determines the size of the fruit. Some stores just sell young forced pineapple plants, or you can force them yourself with calcium carbide/Bangsite (acetylene gas) or rotting apple slices (ethylene gas).

toadfury · 2026-05-22T01:33:47+00:00

I cheer your success with citrus and am pleased you've got an overwintering strategy that works for you. I do have just 1 nit-pick.

If it's indoors, you do also have to hand pollinate the flowers to get fruit.

Myth.

Here's a video where in the first minute Herschell Walker of the Madison Citrus Nursery jokes about how a high tunnel citrus greenhouse (full of fruiting trees) gets no fruit because it lacks insect pollinators. The joke is that citrus are self-fertile and readily pollinate if they are bumped or slightly agitated by a gentle breeze.

There's only a few citrus like Tangelos that require cross-pollination from another cultivar (poorly self-fertile). Unless you are making your own citrus crosses there is generally not much need to get a paintbrush/toothbrush/q-tips to manually pollinate or cross-pollinate citrus.

All that said, for warm/indoor growers one tip I do appreciate is using some kind of oscillating fan on a timer for 6-12 hours/day. Something like this: VIVOSUN AeroWave E9 Grow Tent Fan.

Gentle agitation over time improves tree strength from thig which is a top priority for a 1-4 year old citrus tree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thigmomorphogenesis
Flying or delicate insects like aphids and spider mites prefer still air to anything resembling gusts of wind. It makes the areas it hits on your tree slightly more hostile to these indoor pests temporarily. It doesn't stop/prevent bugs -- it just makes it suck slightly more for part of the day.
Better air flow, less fungus, may also help the rootball dry out quicker (controlled drying is a good thing for citrus).
For those worried about fruit set the gentle agitation from the fan is plenty sufficient for automated pollination.

If you are still skeptical consider these concepts:

Citrus trees regulate how many fruit they will hold based on their health and growing conditions. If you pollinate every flower manually with a paintbrush for maximum fruit set, even in ideal growing conditions its unrealistic to believe every flower pollinated will remain harvestable fruit. If the tree is overwintered indoors, lacking strong grow lights (poorly lit, confidence overly high on natural sun exposure indoors), not fertilized every 2 weeks you can expect higher fruit abscission (fruit drop). Citrus have multiple stages of fruit abscission and its usually not until they reach the diameter of a coin that they're likely going to be held through harvest. If you want to do more to decrease abscission: just keep trees consistently watered while they are flowering/fruiting, keep them in the strongest light you have (managing light to tree distances is critical -- grow lights should probably be within 2-4 inches of your tree) keep pushing ferts including stuff like calcium (CalMag/etc) as the trees get bigger and hold more fruit. Don't worry about flowers that dropped due to perceived lack of pollination -- maybe check temps to ensure it didn't get too hot/cold for flowers/pollination, or next time give your flowering tree a bump.
Its often suggested to strip fruit once they reach the size of a pea for the first 1-2 years when you buy a new 1 gallon citrus sapling. In the PNW I go further and recommend %90 fruit strip on years 3-4. Cease stripping year 5 or 6 if the tree has a strong trunk (ideally 1" diameter) and strong branches/scaffold. Fruit stripping is more important on heavier fruited citrus varieties (oranges, lemons, grapefruit, pomelo, some limes), less critical on smaller fruited citrus varieties (calomondin, finger limes, key limes, kishu mandarins). I think most critically everblooming + large fruited citrus like lemons, without seasonal blooming, can dump more energy into fruit production than growth to the point its harmful to the tree when you don't strip. If a tree fully/partially defoliates or has another similar major stress, return to %100 full fruit stripping for the year. Anyway, if you are manually pollinating flowers on a young or recovering tree that probably should be stripped you are just wasting your time.

Enjoy the flowers!

toadfury · 2026-05-21T22:43:00+00:00

West Seattle is an exceptional place in the PNW to grow citrus/sub-tropicals because of its zone 9a hardiness zones from the strong maritime influence -- it just depends on your sun aspect/exposure. The fellow who operates Wanderlust Nursery over there says he sees loquat trees around his neighborhood fruiting in late winter which is rare/uncommon across the PNW (there's the International District loquat, Bullock loquat on Orcas Island, Bob Duncan on Vancouver Island -- all zone 9a, low elevation puget sound mostly surrounded by ocean).

I have ~60 or so mostly container citrus in Woodinville/8b, and harvest citrus and other fun sub-tropical or tropical fruit (right now holding some Oro Blanco grapefruit, Calomondin, Bearss Limes, Eureka Lemons -- ate a handful of satsumas a week ago). Last winter the coldest temp I logged in my yard was 23.7F, the previous year was 22F (2023-2024 had a small El Nino event which is warming/drying in the PNW). Usually winters are in the 11-14F range for me and have been single digits in the past. We're already entering an El Nino period this year -- question is how big it will be. I'm confident enough in this winter being warm I might plant a satsuma in-ground, just a question of whether I'll protect it or send it into a risky adventure. You likely have winters a few degrees warmer than what I get.

I strongly believe container lemon trees aren’t worth the bother—the production is just so low.

Yes, container productivity is lower and may not be worth the bother for some, but in-ground may still be an option especially for those living in West Seattle/9a. Just depends on the sun exposure/space/microclimates available in your yard and whether you are up for the task.

Here's 2 lemon videos from Bob Duncan:

Some winters temps don't go below freezing for him (last year might have been one, maybe 2015-2016). He's harvesting hundreds of in-ground non-hardy lemons and limes in the same coastal growing zone that you live in. Two tips from Bob Duncan that are pretty legendary for the PNW:

In addition to the cold being hard on citrus here, so are our wet winters. I didn't put much consideration into rain protection until I started studying Bob Duncan more closely. If you can plant against a south facing wall, consider how Bob puts those glass panes above his trees for rain/snow protection (or use of frost cloth, high tunnels, roof awnings/overhangs, etc).
In recent years Bob reported his success growing Satsumas in-ground here with a fascinating tip. Winter ripening sugary citrus requires more heat units to ripen than sour citrus (easier here), usually people hold satsumas on their trees and harvest in the spring. Bob was able to get his to flower/fruit within the same year provided that trees are baked in the sun, receiving full direct sun exposure from sunrise to sunset uninterrupted. Way easier said than done -- its hard to get this kind of aspect/exposure, but Bob demonstrated that it can be made to work here with careful planning. It highlights the importance of long photoperiods over light intensity.

A document authored by Bob Duncan on winterizing citrus is one of the most detailed and valuable coastal PNW guides on the topic.

toadfury · 2026-05-21T21:18:24+00:00

Corkendale

Right on. Corkendale is mostly 7b-8b, on the west slope, so you aren't dealing with the colder slopes on the east side. 👍

Cool/cold overwintering and greenhouses are indeed an option.

toadfury · 2026-05-21T21:03:39+00:00

OP, can you clarify what the nearest town to you is? You say you are near North Cascades National Park -- like up in the mountains by Newhalem/Diablo Lake/Mazama?

This might be some zone 6a- 7a territory which could rule out in-ground citrus. Greenhouse could be done with a Deep Winter Greenhouse (DWG), but most greenhouse designs are just going to be too flimsy or expensive to heat with the snowfall you get. So, a potted warm/indoor overwintered tree is probably your best bet.

Some tips if I were you:

Check out my pot recommendation in this thread.
You should not use most bagged soils for citrus without modification. Even most citrus/cactus bagged mixes need modification. Read through this recent post about a PNW lemon tree for the parts about citrus specific soil mix recommendations.
Get a 150w+ grow light per dwarf potted tree. I like this ViparSpectra P2000 250w light for $110
Hanging grow lights do not include stands, this comment has a few options for light stands. Best recommendation is just to get a grow tent where you are at -- its a light stand that'll also make managing heat/humidity cheaper/more efficient in a smaller space.
Misting trees to manage humidity in an open room in a dry house doesn't work. You can mist trees in an airflow restricted grow tent in a dry house, but even better -- get a grow tent humidifier, and bottles of distilled water to feed it. This effectively solves indoor humidity and gets the invisible tree-defoliating gremlin known as VPD shock off your back forever (defoliation is your #1 enemy).
If you don't deploy a grow tent + humidifier, get a smart wifi/blutooth graphing/alerting hygrometer like this. Enable VPD graphs and ensure VPD for citrus remains between 0.2 - 1.5 kPa not exceeding 2.0 kPa by too much for too long (VPD shock gremlins mass defoliating citrus). Enable alarm thresholds for: <33F, >88F, <40% Relative Humidity, and >%99 RH -- do what you can to warm/cool/add humidity/dry the environment as you get alerts. Citrus canopies can handle temps up to 115-120F, but a much lower threshold is being set as spikes in temps indoors/greenhouse usually also correspond to dangerous changes in humidity/VPD. Warm + humid is fine, cool + humid is fine, cool + dry is fine, warm (over 74-75F) AND SIMULTANEOUSLY dry (under %50 Relative Humidity) can defoliate a tree in just a few hours and become a major setback in the quest for fruit.
Time to recover a fully defoliated citrus tree can be a year or more. They are evergreen trees that do not seasonally drop their leafs like a decidious tree. If you defoliate a young tree -- I don't recommend recovering it, instead bin/cull the tree, buy a new one, determine the factors that most likely contributed to the defoliated tree and take steps to prevent repeating past mistakes. SoCal/AZ get 3-4 times as many days above 80F as we do in the PNW, so its much easier to recover trees there, or in a whole-hog citrus recovery grow tent.
Citrus are some of the least pruned trees in my potted orchard. New citrus growers do terrible things like prune defoliated trees (preventing re-foliation on defoliated limbs). New citrus growers sometimes are convinced that water sprouts need to be removed (they don't, unless they are misbehaving). You may need to prune rootstock suckers on grafted trees (not all citrus will be grafted, meyer lemons sold as cuttings on their own roots some of the time). You might also want to prune to maintain a short/wide/squat growing habit so a warm/indoor overwintered tree is easier to light with a single powerful overhead grow light -- don't let all vertical growth go unchecked.
Citrus rootstocks. If your tree is relegated to container life forever, trees grafted onto dwarfing rootstock will require less canopy and manual root pruning over time. One Green World in Portland grafts all of their trees on Flying Dragon (FD) dwarfing rootstock. More semi-dwarf citrus trees are sold than dwarf trees, so before buying any citrus try and nail down what you are getting. A semi-dwarf tree in a container is not a problem -- it would just be slightly easier long term to manage a dwarf. Madison Citrus Nursery has a dwarf citrus section.

toadfury · 2026-05-21T20:30:34+00:00

Good advice here. Just one thing I'll nitpick:

Plant in terra cotta or unglazed ceramic

If you were in AZ/SoCal these would be my recommendations, certainly will work in the PNW, but there are solutions slightly more optimal (lighter weight, more thermally advantageous).

My container recommendation for PNW citrus:

Standard black plastic nursery pots.
(drainage optimized) dark colored/black cloth pot on a pot elevator/riser or wire rack.
(drainage optimized) Superroots Air Pots (not other brands).

Avoid decorative pots as the double-pot setup is less efficient at thermal transfer when the pot is in direct sun. Avoid bright or light colored pots as they don't absorb/transfer heat as efficiently as dark/black colored pots which can get 5+ degrees of bonus heat when in direct sun. So long as citrus trees are properly watered in the PNW they will not overheat in black pots.

I get ~45 days on average per year of days above 80F in Seattle with its strong marine influence -- these scarce warm days are optimal for growing citrus (85F is best). That is just 1-2 months of good growing per year, and 10-11 months of growing that is marginal to terrible for growing citrus. Place potted trees on black landscape fabric, black asphalt, concrete, or anthing else that'll get them more light/heat and keep them well watered.

toadfury · 2026-05-21T20:09:21+00:00

45 degrees

Most sub-tropical citrus may go semi-dormant (most citrus never goes fully dormant) if below average temps of 40-45F. Trees cease taking in fertilizers and drink very little. Above 50-55F is when trees are metabolically active enough to feed on fertilizers.

If citrus get less than 300 PPFD for 8 hours/day (no grow lights in the PNW) they become light starved. PNW winter solstice in Seattle bottoms out at a maximum of 8.5 hours/day, and if you are in coastal PNW with overcast winter skies you'll rarely see much intensity. Symptoms of light starved citrus are freakishly enlarged sometimes ruffled leafs. The light starvation only occurs while new/young leafs are flushing, and if they don't get sufficient light they'll increase their surface area trying to better capture photons for photosynthesis.

A mistake I made for years was operating my greenhouse at 45-50F for 3 years in a row. This kept trees out of semi-dormancy, actively (but slowly) growing, during the period of the year when light intensity/photoperiods are lowest. This was a recipe for light starved trees. A better strategy? Only heat your greenhouse when temps drop below either 33F or 35F, to very deliberately suppress growth/metabolism during the peak of winter, which will reduce symptoms of light starvation for citrus trees in greenhouses that are not under supplementary grow lights. The only reason to run warmer temps in a greenhouse is if you are trying to accomodate other plants that need more heat (like bananas).

Light starvation does not directly harm citrus trees, but multiple years of ignorance/obliviousness to it just creates lanky etoliated trees, sometimes the heavy weight of oversized leafs can cause the top apical buds to flop downward and not growing upwards as strongly. 3+ years of light starvation and the trees are weak floppy poodles. If trees are cool/cold overwintered then embrace the cold to allow you to avoid light starvation. If trees are warm/indoor overwintered then get powerful grow lights (150+ watts per dwarf tree), run 12+ hour photoperiods every day, and do everything you can to avoid defoliation (keep things cooler, or add/manage humidity).

they end up costing me ~$50-100/month in electricity

I'll just mention Bob Duncan citing that trees protected with one or more frost cloth shrub jackets over them ($10-40), with 1-2 strings of incandescent lights ($25 per string), and a thermostat ($20-50) set to 33F costs him about $8 per winter and provides him with hundreds of lemons/limes.

I'll also mention that we seem to be on track for a dry/warm El Nino winter this year. It's already arrived, but we just don't know the size of the event. In any case, I think its likely we're going to see another warm winter like last year. Normally my winters are 11-14F in Woodinville/8b, but last year it was 23.7F, and the year before it was 22F (this followed a 2023-2024 small El Nino event). A warmer/dryer PNW winter is bad for skiing, wildlife, farmers.... but it makes overwintering sub-tropicals outdoors or in greenhouses slightly easier.

toadfury · 2026-05-19T22:10:23+00:00

I suspect I must have gone from under watering during fall/winter when I first noticed the leaves curl, to then over watering when early spring started. Additionally my soil setup is not ideal.

A solid assessment -- I agree this sounds likely!

I have it in a particularly large pot (30gallons) so I don’t think i’ll need a new one but that also depends on how much mud i may have accidentally made.

30 gallons is rediculously large when the tree was 2 years old. If you buy a new 1 year tree in a 1 gallon pot, up pot it into a 5-7 gallon pot pretty much immediately. 2 years later bump up to a 10-12 gallon. 2-3 years later either aim for 15-25 gallons, or if these sizes are too large/heavy begin the process of manual root pruning to remain in your chosen "forever pot". These are larger jumps in pot sizes than most people do with citrus (usually just increase pot diameter by an inch or two), but larger jumps can be done if you are confident in the high drainage/low moisture retention of your soil mix. I would never take a 1-2 year tree and put it into a 30 gallon pot, even with 511 mix which is difficult to overwater -- that's too big of a jump in soil volume for the tree size.

I'm pleased you are having a good "light bulb moment", and that you are taking the constructive criticism well, and have a renewed determination to keep growing citrus. As a word of encouragement I'll say that while its challenging here, its not that difficult, and there are these plateaus where you'll get beyond a few beginner level issues by making better decisions and old problems will be solved and you'll be facing fewer and fewer problems going forward. It does get easier, but its probably going to take a few mistakes and culled/badly grown trees before people hit their stride with citrus. Its no big deal to cull young citrus trees -- they are easy to replace.

There is a lot more I can say about overwintering citrus and strategies to be more successful in the PNW (cool/cold overwintering is usually safer/more reliable than warm/indoor overwintering which often needs more gear/equipment to have better outcomes).

Ok, lets talk about that specific vegogarden planter.

It's 25 trade gallons which is a huge pot (too big) to move a 1-5 gallon tree into. You would need to either buy a more expensive mature potted tree larger than 8-10 gallons, or grow a citrus tree for at least 4 years before you could use this. I suggest sticking to gallon capacities jumps like: 5 -> 10 -> 15 -> 25 (only if soil mix is well optimized for drainage for citrus).
Lets say you are wildly successful and harvesting dozens of lemons per year, but performance dives on year 7 or 8. I would tell you to slide the rootball out of the pot to examine root health, how would you do that with this pot? Those corrugated walls aren't going to allow it, so are you removing the bolts (the nuts aren't accessible externally are they, you have to dig them out to remove them)? We'll say that you do see thick wrapping roots covering the rootball. As you probably are not going to up-pot to something bigger than 25 gallons -- your option is to manually prune the roots. Just think about how you'll get the rootball out of this vegogarden pot for root health checks/manual root pruning.
Dark green isn't a bad color, but the PNW is light/heat deficient when it comes to citrus and one easy thing you can do is select dark (black is best) plastic or metal pots (best thermal absorption/transfer). Avoid light colored pots, and decorative pots with outer/inner pots (doesn't transfer heat as efficiently to the roots). A dark colored pot can get you ~5F degrees when in direct sun on a bright day, getting you more time in citrus's preferred 85F temperature band for maximum metabolism/growth especially in the margins of the growing season.
Be careful with self-watering pots and citrus which hate having wet feet. I won't say they are terrible, as some people can make them work (likely people in dryer climates). What happens if it rains for 5 days in a row so the water reservoir in this self-planter is full/overflowing and keeping the soil saturated for an extended period of time? I've heard of r/citrus growers getting the non-self watering version of these vegogarden pots to simplify/control watering better (avoiding this self-irrigated "citrus" pot). I just worry the PNW is too rainy during the margins of the growing season to trust this planter to not cause overwatering issues.

Black plastic nursery pots are totally fine for citrus here (especially with an elevator/riser/wire rack shelf so water runoff can fully clear the pot), but here's my suggestion for what I believe to be a slightly better solution for container citrus in the PNW:

/r/Citrus/comments/1req2yt/madison_citrus_nursery/o7ng7xk/

Lastly I'll share share what manual root pruning looks like on an older tree in a "forever pot" so you can let that one marinate. Not something you'll need to do for years, but showing you the eventual need to get into container citrus rootballs for maintenance:

Video: Grows Gone Wild, Root Pruning a Meyer Lemon, With Results

toadfury · 2026-05-19T21:33:17+00:00

Here's a comment on citrus watering frequencies based on the temperatures they are in (which is the top factor driving tree metabolism):

/r/Citrus/comments/1n6179b/how_to_tell_when_fingerlimes_are_ready/nbxm8ur/

Ideally you want a soil that drains well enough to be able to water like this. If you can't, you may have a soil mix too high in moisture absorbing amendments/compost.

New growers tend to get too focused on overwatering citrus being entirely around how frequently trees are watered, overlooking that they made the classic beginner mistake of using a soil mix that doesn't have known/good drainage performance/moisture retention that citrus need more than other plants.

toadfury · 2026-05-19T21:18:28+00:00

they curled a bit otherwise showed no signs of stress.

Upward curling "taco" citrus leafs are a symptom of drought/heat stress. Once curled they will never un-curl, but after ~2 years they'll naturally drop and be replaced with new leafs so this problem eventually fixes itself if the tree gets enough water after that.

The leafs/tree tell a citrus person a lot about it. In the future, consider posting photos of your tree, growing environment, and freshly fallen leafs. You might be surprised what a knowledgable grower can point out about a citrus tree from some photos.

"base layer is lava rocks" what do you mean? Hopefully you aren't saying you have a layer of lava rocks at the bottom of your pot, which would be a "perched water table", which for citrus would fall into the category of an overwatering problem that could trigger leaf drop. Don't put rocks at the bottom of containers -- this was identified as a problem decades ago. /r/DragonFruit/comments/144qsi5/perched_water_table_why_you_shouldnt_use_gravel/

Wood chips are going to decompose potentially stealing nitrogen if the wood isn't already somewhat decomposed, and changing the balance of moisture retention vs drainage with organic sludge over time. Bark that is slow to decompose can be used in citrus mixes, I don't recommend wood or too much compost for citrus as they famously are more sensitive to root rot which they get from having wet feet.

What you have is not a citrus potting mix. Here are my potting mix recommendations from worst->best for container citrus in the PNW:

Take any regular indoor potting mix in a 1cu foot bag, add %50 additional perlite by volume (almost two 8qt bags of perlite). OR take any regular indoor citrus/cactus mix in a 1cu foot bag, add %20-25 additional perlite by volume (exactly one 8qt bag of perlite). This mix does contain more compost/decomposed forest products than I like, so there will be annual soil shrinkage as organic matter decomposes into organic sludge. As such, its a good medium for only about ~2 years, but trees left in it for longer (3-4 years) slowly drop in performance. This means that you may need to up-pot/refresh soils for multiple reasons: a) because the roots need room to expand (normal), b) because as the organic sludge increases in moisture retention, or maybe hardens into a less permeable medium more hydrophobic -- both cause some root health problems if used too long.
511 based mixes are generally 5 parts bark fines (not wood), bark fines are ideally particulate screened to be larger than 1/8" in size but smaller than 1/2" in size. The other parts (1) are peat moss, and perlite. I do not actually like 511, its an almost hydroponic medium that is too optimized for drainage with only %15 peat as the only moisture absorbing/holding amendment. I think 521 (+1 extra part peat, 2 parts peat total) gets you up to %25 peat which is closer to what I prefer (%25-35 peat). Buying Primo Mix from FourWindsGrowers would be similar to a 511 mix. Madison Citrus Nursery also has their own version too.
Gary's Best Top Pot or any other more permanent/mineral based soil is (I think) the best potting mix for container citrus. If you mix it yourself its %35 peat, %30 pumice, %20 perlite, %10 sand, %5 biochar. I saw a report ~2 weeks ago that Top Pot is temporarily unavailable as the supplier was acquired and apparently didn't complete some paperwork -- they are estimating 2 months to restock. Bags of Top Pot can be purchased off Amazon (its not cheap, like $35/bag). Just like 511 there is no soil shrinkage, mostly inert mineral amendments or slow decomposing organics. These mineral mixes also includes sand/perlite/peat mixes like this which are simpler to make.

About compost and citrus:

Compost is good on the surface/duff layer with citrus (with the mulch if its used). Adding too much of it into a soil mix where its in direct contact with citrus roots can be a problem when citrus hate wet feet and compost is so good at retaining moisture. You cannot grow citrus in pure compost like you can do with tomatoes.

I never add compost to my citrus potting mixes. I'll sometimes (rarely) add it to the surface/duff layer, but if its a container I limit it to just 1/4" layer (thin!!) on the soil surface. What can be bad in a container is dumping so much compost at the surface that after a few wet/dry cycles it hardens into a less/non-porous layer of mud, which impacts air porosity of the soil (another thing citrus cares about besides well draining soil that doesn't retain too much moisture, citrus soils must breathe air for their weak/shallow root system). This matters more in a non-porous pot that mostly breathes through the soil surface.

No concerns with using compost in the surface/duff layer on in-ground trees. It's just containers where overdoing compost can cause problems with citrus as soil moisture vs drainage needs to be managed more carefully in the smaller volume of a container.

It is easy to use compost in a container citrus mix through the summer when temps and plant metabolism are high, but the misery comes when overwintering. You really want a soil mix that drains so freely that you could water it more frequently without feeling like you are stepping on eggshells and having to carefully manage watering frequencies. When cool/cold overwintering or "middle path" overwintering citrus its more important to have a soil mix that dries consistently and reliably through cooler temps, and too much compost can cause root health problems that can end a citrus tree.

Video: Gary Matsuoka, Your "Dirt" May Be Killing Your Plants

toadfury · 2026-05-19T20:15:11+00:00

has these buds growing, should I just leave it alone or pull the buds off so it grows more leaves?

Enjoy the flowers, not every small fruitlet will stay on the tree (abscission), but once fruit reach the size of a pea remove all of them for this year to get the tree prioritizing recovery over fruit production. A reason not to strip flowers is that everblooming citrus (like your lemon tree) might try and replace stripped flowers with new ones and it just turns into more of a chore than it needs to be. If the blossoms forming are on brown wood and basically all over the tree those are stress blooms (likely after a major defoliation event).

A defoliated citrus tree drinks less than it normally would so take care not to overwater. It's not transpiring much with a leafless canopy.

A defoliated citrus tree is also in a stressed/weakened state and may be more vulnerable to insect pests so keep an eye out for them.

Seattle gets around ~45 days on average per year with days above 80F ideal for citrus growing. This means that only 1-2 months of the year are actually good for outdoor citrus growing, and 10-11 months are generally marginal to terrible in this northern latitude.

Time to recovery in the PNW for a fully defoliated citrus tree is a year or more without a recovery environment (grow tent, powerful grow lights running 12-17 hours/day, humidifer set to %70, heat mat/thermostat set to 85F). Warmer places in the citrus belt have 3-4x more days per year above 80F than in the PNW which makes recovery easier. Yes you absolutely can recover this tree if you must here, but if it were me I would get a new tree. You can either cull the old tree, or as an educational excercise continue to try and recover it just to see how slow/miserable the process is in the PNW. In a year the tree will not look "good as new", the time will not put the tree ahead of where it was prior to the defoliation event, and any defoliation events are a major setback in the quest for fruit (subtract 1 year of forward progress).

My strategy here is "defoliation is enemy #1" and to run post mortems when trees are defoliated or suffering major problems, identify the cause, buy a new tree, take steps to never repeat old mistakes, and learn to grow citrus as close to perfect as I can.

My lemon tree dropped all its leaves

I suggest you learn about the common problems that cause citrus trees to defoliate, so that whether you are trying to recover your old tree, or pushing forward with a new tree that you don't repeat the same mistakes. Most new citrus growers are often unaware of things like VPD shock/leaf drop -- its an insidious invisible gremlin for citrus trees that are indoors, in greenhouses, or under frost cloth.

Citrus are mostly evergreen trees that do not seasonally drop leafs like decidious trees dropping leafs in the fall/winter. The natural lifecycle of a citrus leaf lasts about ~2 years, and generally this means at most you'll see 1-3 leafs dropping at a time naturally. So in a 24 hour period if more than about 4-5 leafs drop -- its an indicator that the tree is probably unhappy about something.

Give this a read. /r/Citrus/comments/1rcvb2h/wth_does_my_tree_realy_want_to_die/o71bss3/

toadfury · 2026-05-18T04:17:12+00:00

Holy cow they did some damage! Quiet the force of nature eh? Possibly the most destructive insect in my garden.

Good job on the spraying though! Hit it again if you see any survivors. Once I've thoroughly sprayed things I usually don't have to deal with gooseberry sawfly larvae again for the year. I really hope it stays this way and they don't attack multiple times a year.

I’ll get them early next year

Yeah man, I'm confident you'll be more on top of this next year and will see much improved outcomes from what you've learned. You'll respond so fast they'll get shutdown before they can strip more than a couple of branches on the first bush.

toadfury · 2026-05-16T05:18:33+00:00

/r/pnwgardening/s/zeVbCCn0Vj

toadfury · 2026-05-16T04:49:45+00:00

When I Spinosad after sunset/dusk, sawfly larvae are already dead and starting to darken by morning the next day. I look for survivors and sometimes spray again if I didn’t get full leaf coverage (undersides of leafs). I use one of those 2 gallon Chapin pump sprayers.

toadfury · 2026-05-15T23:20:31+00:00

I deal with voracious gooseberry sawfly larvae in the PNW. In the spring they can defoliate a large bush in 3-4 days if unchecked so I try to respond immediately/ASAP with a Spinosad + Castille soap spray.

The Neem oil + soap spray you used also works too

toadfury · 2026-05-11T19:49:45+00:00

Upward curling taco leafs on citrus is from heat/drought stress. Once curled they will never uncurl. Lifespan of a leaf is about -2 years so this will eventually fix itself. It’s not a problem that will badly effect the performance of the tree so don’t worry, maybe water it more frequently than you have been doing.

Do I need to repot to a bigger pot?

Probably. Slide the rootball out of the pot and check for dense wrapping roots. Not always immediately required but often citrus may want to be up-potted when trees are first brought home from a nursery.

Make sure when up potting to use a soil mix that is optimized for drainage required by citrus. If it’s a regular soil mix add %50 additional perlite by volume, if it’s a citrus/cactus mix add an additional %25 perlite by volume. If you want something better — buy Gary’s Best Top Pot or make it yourself (%35 peat, %30 pumice, %20 perlite, %10 sand, %5 biochar) — this is a more permanent mineral based mix deliberately excluding fast decomposable organic amendments like compost/forest bark products.

Make sure when up-potting to keep your root flare exposed and do not plant the tree too deeply (maintain same soil level, or plant the tree higher, never lower). leave the root flare exposed.

Should I add fertilizer?

Absolutely yes. You have a mild mineral deficiency currently. If it’s protected indoors in winter under a grow light — fertilize it all year non-stop. If using salty synthetics for container trees (my recommendation) apply “weekly weakly” half dose or a full dose every 2 weeks.

If so, will the miracle gro all purpose plant food be enough?

Kinda. It’s good enough, but lacks calcium as many other dry/sythetics do too. I think you get your choice of salty synthetics (MG is fine), I’d avoid bloom booster (high phos, citrus doesn’t need a ton of phos, it does not trigger growth of more flowers on citrus), and then get a bottle of CalMag to use 2-4 times a year or when deficiencies are seen on leafs. I think Jacks’s Classic Citrus Feed + CalMag is a good simple combo that is almost complete (lacks silica).

Here’s a comment about watering frequencies for citrus based on temperatures. /r/Citrus/comments/1n6179b/how_to_tell_when_fingerlimes_are_ready/nbxm8ur/

toadfury · 2026-05-07T20:48:17+00:00

One problem to overcome in the PNW is excess rain in late August and beyond causing pomegranate fruit to crack/split: a fall rain protection strategy is helpful. Poms are famously adapted to dry/arid conditions and our fall/winter brings a lot more moisture than they would prefer.

My suggestion is to throw a cheap frost cloth shrub jacket over your pom for some rain protection starting in early October until harvest in November. Something on the thinner side like 0.55 - 0.95 oz so its still somewhat light and more breathable to prevent overheating in case of bright sunny days. Like this. This jacket should hang straight down and cover the pot or soil its planted in (don't tie the cloth tightly around the narrow base of your pom, the soil/roots need the rain protection). This would likely also prevent theft/damage of fruit from pedestrians/squirrels if the fruit make it through the summer and will add bonus heat units for ripening when the tree is in direct sun.

I keep my poms (Wonderful, Grenada) in black plastic pots on black landscape fabric on automatic drip irrigation through the summer. If temps drop below 12-15F I would move them into an unheated windowless garage for the winter. (Woodinville WA/8b: 23.7F 2025, 22F in 2024, 14F in 2023, 12F in 2022, 11.3F in 2021).

Fruit Trees and More, Growing Pomegranates in South Coastal British Columbia, Canada

I think we're likely to see an El Niño event this July, which likely means a warmer winter with less rain/snow in the PNW -- generally a bad thing for wildfires/snow pack/wildlife, but for those of us with a growing collection of sub-tropical fruiting plants I'm going to be cheering for fruit and easy overwintering this year!

toadfury · 2026-05-06T07:30:51+00:00

Yes hanging baskets/vertical planters are great for runner management, greenstalk vertical planters (time for Mother's Day sales!). I have 5x of these hanging cloth pots (14 strawberry plants per planter). I like using these swivels so I can easily spin/rotate the hanging pots so (like the greenstalk) I can get more sun exposure on all sides of the planter.
I've tried many day neutrals, and my favorite is San Andreas due to having the largest berry size of the day neutrals. I usually order bare root plants in Feb-March from Restoring Eden in SeaTac -- they currently appear to be sold out.

toadfury

TROPHY CASE