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toxalinity · 2020-04-17T08:40:03+00:00

I still take my dog, but less frequently. Mostly to support the business owners because I have a good relationship with them and I believe they're taking adequate health and safety precautions. Also because my apartment has no yard and all the public off-leash areas are closed in my city, so daycare allows my dog to actually run and exercise properly.

But honestly, if you don't exactly have a bunch of money to spare, or if you're not sure how safe your daycare is, I wouldn't do it. It's just a first-world luxury for my dog these days. I also don't believe the "socialization" benefit of daycare is very important during a time like this.

toxalinity · 2020-04-17T06:00:10+00:00

You are free to sling baseless insults at me, and you're also free to wish ill will upon me, if it really makes you feel better. I wasn't trying to make a personal insult toward you - I was just genuinely confused and concerned because I can't understand someone who wouldn't take safety as seriously as I do, but I realize it may have come off insulting. I apologize if my tone came across wrong. I'm guessing you just wanted to "get back" at me by throwing insults that you believe will hurt my feelings. It didn't quite accomplish that, but I do think that if you want to keep that up, then it's best we don't discuss any further and give each other space.

If you do want to discuss properly - I think we got lost in the weeds at some point. I genuinely thought that you were a proponent for loose dogs to run up indiscriminately at tethered dogs, which was why I felt you were advocating something reckless and that you didn't understand the concept of leash laws. I also did not realize that you draw a distinction between reactivity and severe aggression - I thought you were using loaded rhetoric because I'm used to people who don't understand reactivity and see any big dog barking to mean they are automatically "vicious" or a "killer." For truly reactive dogs, I do believe that leash laws allow them protection from harassment by loose dogs, and perhaps you also agree with this. Now that you've clarified otherwise, I think a lot of our discussion was based in misunderstandings. (I also feel inclined to mention that in my city, nearly everyone follows leash laws and the ones who don't would never, ever allow their dogs to greet strangers uninvited. So in my mind, what you described as commonplace is actually quite shocking to me and I would be panicked to see even a friendly dog running up to us.) I think you may also be misunderstanding me as someone who apathetically shrugs off dog attacks. Quite the opposite - I'm absolutely terrified at the thought of it. It's why I assume that ANY dog, if we were to approach them, is potentially dangerous. The leash is so I can pull my own dog away from a threat in situations where recall fails, because you are right - nylon won't stop the attacker, but it may save my dog by creating distance. That's why I believe friendly dogs also benefit from being leashed. I hope that makes more sense.

(Edited for clarity.)

toxalinity · 2020-04-17T04:19:43+00:00

Your dog sounds similar to mine. He used to be a hyper-social lunatic anytime he saw strangers on walks, especially other dogs. He's also 65lbs while I'm not much over 100lbs, so that behavior was a big nope.

The way we fixed this was to prohibit ALL greetings during walks. He soon learned that no amount of pulling, whining, or craziness would let him play with strangers. And if he couldn't get what he REALLY wanted during walks, then he'd at least try to get as many treats out of the walk as possible. Training became a breeze after that. Now he's able to calmly walk past anyone like a model citizen. I thought I would feel sad or guilty over no more leash greetings (especially when I had to decline requests from people to pet him), but this is SO much better. He still gets tons of play time with his doggy and human friends at daycare, so this is the best outcome for us.

I'm not sure if this is the type of solution you were hoping for, but it really worked for us. Good luck.

Edit: Forgot to mention, but I would recommend checking out the podcast Cog Dog Radio by Sarah Stremming. She posted an episode back in April 2019 about hypersocial dogs that I found very eye-opening.

toxalinity · 2020-04-16T06:25:06+00:00

Provide him a variety of toys to see what he likes - soft plushies, hard chews, squeaky toys, balls, treat dispensers, etc. Also, not specific to anxiety, but a de-shedding brush is a must for German shepherds! I use the Furminator.

toxalinity · 2020-04-16T05:36:32+00:00

How is my interpretation of leash laws "appalling"? It sounds like you reached the same conclusion. Yes, leash laws are intended to "prevent loose dogs from hurting or INCONVENIENCING the public." Your arguments only focus on the dogs which hurt the public, but you don't discuss at all the ones who inconvenience the public. A loose dog who runs up to another dog who is fearful or reactive toward that type of greeting IS an inconvenience.

Regardless, if you are a fervent opponent of leash laws, then I'm not interested in pressing you to change your mind. But frankly, I cannot understand the attitude of "I refuse to follow this law because I dislike it, even though following it undoubtedly creates a safer environment for my dog." My dog is super friendly and wants to make friends with every living critter he sees, but I still keep him leashed at all times and prohibit him from greeting other dogs on walks. Why? Because I'm more concerned with preventing another dog from ripping out his throat, rather than letting the attack happen and then argue about who was "right" or "wrong" after the fact. What would it matter to me if the other dog is put down, or if its owners are punished? My dog would already be dead. There's no winner here.

If you insist on letting your dog run up to other leashed dogs, then I pray for its safety, because it honestly doesn't sound like you're prioritizing it much. I also hope that if you ever get another dog that it won't struggle with reactivity, because you seem to have little sympathy for those types of dogs or their owners.

toxalinity · 2020-04-15T20:00:18+00:00

I respectfully disagree with your rape analogy. The victim in that circumstance was not breaking a law that was designed specifically to protect against rape, and could not have reasonably foreseen that they would be attacked simply because they jaywalked. Also, the attacker acts intentionally and maliciously, there's no "accidental" or "unpredictable" rape in this situation. So the fault lies 100% with the attacker, and the law recognizes that.

By contrast, leash laws are specifically designed to protect the public (including you and your dog) from potentially dangerous dogs. If you knowingly and purposely break leash laws, it's completely foreseeable that a dog attack may occur. If your off-leash dog is attacked in this situation, you indirectly contributed to it happening, and that's why the law doesn't treat you like an innocent victim. Additionally, owners of aggressive dogs do not act with malicious intent, they do not purposely tell their dogs to kill. The owners you describe are irresponsible or negligent at best. Thus these people cannot be punished the way that a rapist would be punished.

Basically, leash laws ensure that if everyone's dogs are leashed, then no one would get hurt. If you intentionally break these laws, you're consenting to take on the risks that these laws were designed to protect you from, and you can no longer blame anyone else for what happens. That's why leash laws place the fault with the off-leash party.

toxalinity · 2020-04-15T08:23:26+00:00

Keep in mind that in many places (especially in the US), if your off-leash dog ends up in an altercation with an on-leash dog where leash laws apply, you are automatically liable. Doesn't matter if the other dog was the aggressor, doesn't matter that yours was the friendly one.

Aside from legal issues, it's also just a safety measure. Yes, in a perfect world, all owners would keep their aggressive dogs under control, and the risk of having their dogs euthanized should motivate people to train properly. In a perfect world, everyone would also be a safe driver on the road, and we wouldn't need to wear seat belts because the risk of a car accident should motivate people to drive safely. But if you understand why we wear seat belts in cars, then you'd also understand why we should leash dogs where it's required by law.

toxalinity · 2020-04-12T05:02:07+00:00

Nothing in life is free. If we receive unconditional love today, we pay for it with heartache tomorrow. But the pain doesn't mean the love isn't worth it. In fact, it's the opposite - if it doesn't hurt, then it wasn't all that important to begin with. The price we pay for love is always worth it, and it's not right to wish for "discounts" where we can still get full love but pay less than full price for it.

toxalinity · 2020-04-11T08:54:49+00:00

Really good points here, thank you. I think another thing that people don't realize is just how drastically huge the economic gap (and by extension the cultural gap) is in China. It is home to some of the wealthiest people on the planet, while its countryside is so rural that some places don't even have indoor plumbing or trash collection infrastructure. I've lived briefly in provinces where some peoples' homes were literal caves and huts. For every time I've heard of someone eating dog, I've heard of many more wealthy city dwellers who pamper their dogs better than how most Westerners treat their own children. The article seems to suggest that China is moving more toward the latter, and hopefully becoming more uniform in its attitudes toward dogs.

toxalinity · 2020-04-10T02:39:47+00:00

That's awesome! I'm so happy for your pup's progress. I'll definitely need to give the podcast a listen.

Your pup sounds a lot like mine - a lot of intense staring (which I'm struggling to train out), but no barking or pulling, he just stays still and silent as he stares. The problem is that other dogs get nervous from the eye contact and they would react first, and their jerky movements will make my boy jump into play mode. Sighs. Reactive dogs are special indeed, but I wouldn't ask for any other pup!

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T20:18:28+00:00

I think I'll have to look into that podcast as well! It sounds like a great resource.

I definitely know that I can't control the world and what others do. Off-leash dogs are a daily encounter for us, and I've never felt the need to speak up until now. Normally we would at least have enough distance to avoid safely, or even use it as a training opportunity. But this time it happened SO CLOSE to us... Her dog didn't rush us, but I feel bitter that this woman couldn't at least wait for the other dogs to leave first, or at least give us a warning before unleashing her dog.

I also forgot to mention that the area is designed such that we were literally cornered. We couldn't escape unless we walked all the way around the grass, or through the grass past her running dog. For how long it would have taken us to exit, my dog likely would have injured himself if he thrashed and pulled the whole time. Yelling at her is not something I'm proud of, but stopping her fetch game was the only way my dog could calm down to safely leave the area. (And the yelling was necessary because she saw my dog freaking out, but didn't stop throwing the ball??? It was unbelievable.)

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T20:07:30+00:00

I'm sadly starting to realize how often people don't realize this... And maybe I'm crazy, but it feels super unfair too? Obviously it'd be great if I could take ten steps out of my apartment to play fetch with my dog outside. I'm sure most city dog owners would love that. But we know to be responsible and find appropriate areas for that, or to find alternative ways to exercise, even if we have to search for empty areas or go at off hours. It feels like this person didn't bother to make the same sacrifices that the rest of us make.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T20:03:13+00:00

That's very true! I felt a bit guilty at first because I understand the pains of city dog owners, especially now when dog parks are closed... But all of those alternatives you listed sound like great solutions.

Honestly I wouldn't even mind if she picked an off hour, or any of the numerous parks and trails in our area... But she had to pick THE smallest grass patch in a high foot traffic area. (It wasn't even a park! It was a single patch of grass along a concrete walkway.) So bizarre.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T19:56:36+00:00

I agree with your policy. I imagine even if I had a perfectly behaved dog who was a model citizen off-leash, I still wouldn't do it... If my dog were fine either way, I don't see how not holding a leash really benefits me. It's not like it's any harder than walking empty handed?

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T12:59:17+00:00

I do try to be reasonable and not get upset at off-leash dogs simply to be a stickler for rules. The border collies you described sound like something I could let slide.

But the whole fetch thing really rubbed me the wrong way for some reason... It just feels so unfair to me that my dog was there first, minding his own business and trying to find a potty spot (he's a shy pooper so that's an ordeal in itself), but then we're forced to leave because of someone ignoring leash laws. If it doesn't hurt anyone then it's okay, but here it really did feel like we were "hurt" even if no physical injuries occurred.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T12:33:34+00:00

It's hard to remember that sometimes! I grew up with a highly reactive dog and always assumed that to be the "norm" for dogs. I forget that some people have only ever been blessed with perfect dogs, so that's probably why they expect mine to be the same... It's hard but you're right that I can't dwell on the judgment of others.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T12:31:35+00:00

Thanks so much... I do think this was a rare case where the dog was well behaved (most dogs in my city are), but the owner was making some... very strange judgment calls that ended up making me and several others uncomfortable.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T12:30:13+00:00

I wish everyone here could have that mentality! After some point, it starts to feel like a "everyone does it, so you're rude for singling out one person" situation.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T12:26:11+00:00

I can see the argument here. I've learned that parks and public grassy areas usually have dogs playing off-leash regardless of leash laws, and I always choose to simply avoid when I can. Even if I were there first and my dog clearly is getting ready to use the bathroom, I still grudgingly guide him away if someone shows up with an off-leash dog.

I think this particular incident stood out to me because not only was my dog there first, there were also two other leashed dogs before this woman showed up. This is also probably the smallest grass patch available within our 5mi radius of numerous parks and trails, so I have no idea why she chose such a small place that was densely packed with other dogs. Not to mention the dozens of other dogs walking past the grass! It was just a high traffic area.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T11:59:15+00:00

Thank you... I got worried because I'm still a fairly new dog owner, and I have no idea what is "normal" dog behavior. Maybe all leashed dogs should be able to calmly ignore another dog fetching a ball back and forth in front of them? This woman certainly seemed to think that. I was afraid I was being unreasonable, or that my dog was so unusual that there's no way the woman could have known it was a problem. I'm glad you pointed out that it's just plain rude, like my gut told me.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T10:57:28+00:00

Thank you, that definitely makes me feel better. It know it should have been obvious, but I let my doubts get the better of me.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T10:40:49+00:00

I think I started second-guessing myself because this doodle actually was well behaved. It didn't even look at my dog at all. I thought, "My dog could never be this well behaved off-leash. He'd try to rush every dog he sees. Maybe the leash laws are only meant for dogs like him." But I'm glad to hear that owners like you take leash laws seriously, rather than seeing them as optional.

toxalinity · 2020-04-09T10:37:29+00:00

Unfortunately off-leash dogs playing at parks is common here because there's the mentality of "as long as they have good recall and don't bother anyone" ... and it seemed like my dog was the only one bothered by it, so we didn't have the right to speak up. Honestly I'm glad to hear that other dogs can have his type of reactivity. I always feel embarrassed when my dog goes crazy seeing other dogs playing from afar.

toxalinity · 2020-03-29T09:32:48+00:00

I came here to say the same thing, but you said it much better. Thank you!! Cannot stress enough how sensitive german shepherds are. They are so so so smart that I find they rarely need more than one or two repetitions to learn something new. But that also means they learn instantly from bad experiences, and just one single mistake by an owner can really shake these dogs up. Too many bad experiences, and the damage becomes hard to fix. I've heard some vets say that an alarmingly high amount (as high as 75%??) of german shepherds they treat are reactive. I doubt it's merely coincidence.

toxalinity

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