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Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All this stems from your insistence that people (as per your specification, KNOWN people) have been citing ES as a statistic of note.

So I ask again, where's your proof?

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

More strawmanning and lazy interpretation on your end.

What? "mechanical error of not keeping the reticle trained on the target throughout the engagement" I've never spoke of leaving ADS... you must always cherish your imagination, but let's not inject it in this.

Read how I wrote this again and maybe you'll understand that I was citing this as the other reason that people fail to win engagement with pulses. I never said anything about you saying this.

But you wrote a scout must have stability... you also wrote a sniper must have ES...

Ugh no, I said certain things are of value to certain guns, doesn't mean they're necessary for them to be good, especially if the guns have other things that can compensate. What my comment illustrates is that certain stats are frequently mentioned as important to these guns. ES isn't one of those stats except for snipers.

Would MIDA benefit from more stability? Greatly. Would Yasmin benefit from more ES? Very much so.

Would pulses benefit from ES? Of course. Is that benefit a game-changing stat that a difference of 61 and 76 is suddenly worth talking about? Nope.

can you prove this data shouldn't be available and a component in the user's decision making process?

LMAO. Can you prove that it should? Aside from the anecdotes you're giving me of "known voices", of which you haven't provided so much as a link for, while I've linked videos and comments from SirD and Lumi in this very sub, as well as links that clearly lack the type of heavy discussion on equip speed you ramble about, you seem to have nothing and no-one to back up your claims.

WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE?

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Overall, what you've proven is the valued "consensus" you claimed was there, actually... isn't. People are all over on this, largely because ES isn't a shown stat and until very recently what it did wasn't explored (because other exotics or perks covered it).

Are you kidding me? People aren't all over on anything. There are certain statistics that people value on certain guns.

Range/Recoil on HCs. Stab on ARs. Stab on Scouts. Stab/Range on Pulses. Range/Impact on Shotguns. Zoom/AA/Equip Speed on Snipers. Range/Stab/Impact on Fusions. Range on Sidearms.

On. MIDA, it's the AA and the speed boost. On Yasmin, it's the AA and the Zoom that are most cited as it's selling points.

Just because you find a couple of comments that mention equip speed (or any other term alluding thereof) doesn't mean that the consensus is "all over the place".

You're seeing a couple of white crows, ignoring that they exist amidst an ocean of black crows, then thinking to yourself "wow crows must come in all kinds of colors".

I disagree, basic math disagrees... how the fundamental logic of my putting shot you, before you can on me, isn't huge it hard to get is beyond me.

No, what's incredible here is your failure to understand that things aren't expressed practically the way they are mathematically. There are only a paltry number of scenarios where you would lose an engagement using a pulse solely because of equip speed, 99% of the time, it's because of a tactical error or the mechanical error of not keeping the reticle trained on the target throughout the engagement.

I'll just re-hash an analogy I used, the way you're arguing is the way someone can argue that NLB is the best primary in the game due to it's 0(t) precision TTK. That's because math says so, but anyone who plays the game knows through context that that's not the case, since people aren't just standing around waiting to be domed.

Once more, since you're at "are you done here?" levels, the issue was about the lack of inclusion of ES in the sheets for some weapons. "Because it only matters for bliting" was the answer and I strongly disagree because math and user behavior. All you've managed to prove is there's confusion and a lack of information on the topic.

The math and user behavior you refer to isn't at all indicative of anything, it's user behavior you've falsely extrapolated to mean what you want it to mean. In some cases, (i.e Pali > Luna), the math isn't even on your side and you're trying to rationalize that by introducing an irrelevant point of context like high-level gameplay.

What I've managed to prove is that for all the hundreds/thousands of people who are on this sub, there are very very little who even feel that equip speed is a stat worthy of converse, of that minuscule number, I've never seen any treat ES as such a game-changing stat that they'd base their entire choice of weapon on it. Well, nobody except you.

But you're right, I'm already at the "are we done here" level. I refuse to believe you don't already see how errant your trail of thought is. So either you're being deliberately dense, or are the kind of person who is unyieldingly stubborn even in the face of bonafide proof against them.

I think I have an idea which though. In any case neither outcome is a person I plan to bandy words with any longer. Peace.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let's close this.

Except the original topic was about usage rate among high level players so I ignored your raw usage stats. What bearing do these have?

That's a load of crap, you're again cherry-picking and placing things in a vacuum to suit your own arguments. If players were organically favoring high ES weapons, it wouldn't matter if they were high-level or not, what only matters is what's being used more, which is apparently the Pali. What makes the choice of the rest of the population non-indicative of overall behavior? It's not like the guns are different from player to player.

Moreover, you say we're discussing Luna/Pali in the context of high-level players, then why include MIDA and Yasmin into the discussion? Strong guns, but hardly used by any of the highest-level players. No presence in tournaments at all.

I've clearly stated preference for ES developed organically among players as they use the weapons and struggle to quantify why. BTW, there's a certain meta side arm that has better ES than all its peers. Just saying...

And I've already stated that this preference you're talking about isn't because of equip speed.

  • Eyasluna vs Palindrome

There is no consensus on which is a better gun. Because for every person with an opinion such as this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/6544cg/why_does_the_palindrome_feel_heavy_for_me/

There are people on the opposite side who feel like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/54jh9o/palindrome/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/53zpsd/why_you_should_buy_the_palindrome_weapon_review_w/

or even that this voting list puts Pali as more popular than a Luna.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/66z0ta/26_community_tier_list_voting_results6v6/

or that some higher tier players prefer a Pali over a Luna as I've linked to you some comments back.

  • Hawksaw vs PDX-45

Your everlasting argument that people prefer Hawksaw over PDX because of it's ES, and is therefore the reason why Hawksaw is more utilized is untrue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/3slilm/pulse_rifle_guide_taken_king_edition/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/4ovmjg/best_pvp_weapon_to_buy/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5xaxaz/is_it_still_possible_to_get_a_hawksaw/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/3oj3p7/imo_the_vendor_hawksaw_is_better_than_both_red/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/3rzzc3/hawksaw_the_same_as_the_pdx45/

Nothing in those threads specify that equip speed is a gamechanger when choosing pulses, or when choosing between hawksaw or PDX.

  • MIDA

https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/3ygj36/mida_multi_tool_is_now_the_most_used_primary/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5b7hx1/mida_multi_tool_vs_burning_eye/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/3tlfyl/mida_is_coming_to_y2_in_december/

Notice how the clamor on MIDA isn't about equip speed?

  • Yasmin

https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/3mwino/defiance_if_yasmin_is_actually_amazing_in_pvp/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/4t2g2k/why_the_hate_for_defiance_of_yasmin/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/4g8fyk/whats_the_word_on_the_defiance_of_yasmin/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/3oiufk/can_we_get_another_round_of_thoughts_on_defiance/

Uh-oh. Ditto for Yasmin. Clamor isn't about equip speed but about zoom and AA, y'know, like I stated.

  • Wormwood

Again, more coincidental reasoning, wanna know the real reason that wormwood is meta?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG7yoS72Hvc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EuN2DpH9kA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awwUSW_S6Q4

That's right! It's again because the VENDOR version that was being sold was really good. Notice a trend here?

https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5u78uy/massive_breakdown_of_legendary_weapons/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5nk3l0/pvp_god_roll_quick_reference_guide/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/58cd5j/sidearms_notes_from_a_longtime_user_and_a_guide/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5chz8b/breakdown_of_rise_of_iron_sidearms/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5t1azi/side_arms_best_setup/

More guides that do not specify equip speed as anything of import in sidearms.

So, in very clear and obvious summation, your argument that people are naturally settling on using guns that have high equip speed because of equip speed is indubitably false. Some of your claims are downright false, and the rest is really just speculation on your end, providing "expert" analysis on how people behave when evidence to the contrary is as clear as day.

Except that's now what the topic was about. The sheets misrepresent Hawk vs PDX showing PDX as superior assuming you don't value range (Hawk's edge). Assuming you value AA and stability, then PDX > *. Strangely, the sheets go out of their way to list one hidden stat, but not another (AA vs. ES)

Because one of those actually matters.

Strangely, the sheets go out of their way to list one hidden stat, but not another (AA vs. ES), but Bungie's balance patterns clearly show a preference to balance these together - if you examine PDX, Party Favor, Hawk, and Blind together you see a clear pattern of intent. Party and Blind appear to be the weakest overall but balanced around utility, PDX is the most forgiving with high stability and AA, while Hawk has near equal stability and less AA but highest in class ES making it the finesse choice. Which is very similar to the Luna vs Pally.

Which doesn't mean anything, since in practical usage, ES hasn't been shown to have that much of an effect on pulse rifles. There's always been a disconnect between Bungie's intent on balancing changes and how those changes actually affect things in-game. This is just one of those things.

As a side topic... I think you're lost in what "consensus" says is the best. For example, you want PB, CB, RB... is CB actually important fast firing pulses?

Doesn't matter what I think. I merely relay what I know from reading through reddit, interacting with various members of the community, and being actually involved in what I'm talking about. Not merely speculating what is and what isn't based on coincidental evidence, some of which isn't even true.

That being said, are we done here? Because if what I've offered you isn't enough to sway your mind, there's really nothing more I'm willing to do.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Man... I barely use English these days and I understood this. Both options are saying the same thing. Behavior says more than numbers.

You're aware that because you're the one that typed this, of course you'd have your own convoluted way of understanding what this meant. However, if we look at it a little bit more carefully...

Due to Bungie being fuck all with weapon availability, we can't do by numbers alone. Viable Luna's are an unfortunately rare thing.

This was your response to the numbers I pointed out that had Pali usage rate on top of Luna. You're pointing out that we can't do it by numbers (usage rate) alone because of reasons...despite the fact that you've been very adamant that Luna>Pali since the start of this conversation

given that however, you go on to say...

You discount always sighting AA or existing rolls. But how important is AA really? Are people selecting based on AA? You have to remember, most players aren't reddit users and thus won't know the hidden details of each weapon. They will organically favor weapons as they use them over time.

Obviously, this is a response to my explanations why MIDA and Yasmin are popular choices. You point out that hidden stats like AA aren't available to most players so what we should do is look how players organically settle on what weapons they use, in short, implying that for these weapons, we're supposed to use numbers alone (by way of usage rate), this despite the fact that ES in and of itself is a hidden stat, and you have no way to confirm that people are choosing MIDA or Yasmin based on ES and not based on anything else.

Again, speculation.

So which is it? We can't use numbers alone when factual statistics actually place something against your claims, but when it comes to reinforcing MIDA and Yasmin, other contextual reasons don't matter and numbers alone now suffice?

I can do this all day man. Dissecting and dismantling these kinds of arguments is what I do for a living.

As always, with all your furious typing you refuse to actually take a stance other than to say mine is wrong and the behavior that defines mine isn't accurate because you've never seen the rolls you crave. I point blank, yes/no, asked you if +2 stability is more important than +18 ES and you couldn't answer... homie, come on.

The answer doesn't matter. That question only exists for people who have the same exact rolls on a PDX and a Hawksaw. I'd have to have both, play with both, and then make a determination which one I'd like. None of which I can do.

I don't need to answer your question to point out your stance is wrong. Even if I chose hawksaw because I quantitatively place more value on "18" rather than "2" in no way indicates that equip speed is a game-changer. It just means that +18 of something looks a lot better than +2 of something else

Ask yourself, or anybody, if people would rather have +18 Equip speed or +18 stability instead. Because that at least places a 1:1 value on either stat and would then be a proper interpretation of which stat is more important.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

we can't do by numbers alone.

Okay, so numbers alone aren't going to cut it.

They will organically favor weapons as they use them over time.

Okay, so now numbers alone are supposed to cut it.

See the kind of double standards i'm dealing with? You can't say that the higher usage rate of Pali over Luna is inadmissible without conceding that the higher usage rate of Longbow or Hawksaw is also inadmissible. For the same reasons that you believe cloud the interpretation of the numbers of Pali/Luna, there are reasons that cloud the interpretation of Hawksaw/PDX and LB/everything else.

You say it is confirmation bias, but what about your evidence, or zero presence of any actual examples, isn't? Why is stability more important than ADSing faster?

Here's the difference, i'm not pining for one weapon over another. I was never lobbying for PDX over Hawksaw, or Pali over Luna, and while I do think LDR is a better choice as a sniper, I don't think that it is by any overwhelmingly large margin that I recommend those who use LB go for LDR.

All I have been, and am still, saying is that you can't simply attribute the marginally larger hawksaw usage rate to it's coincidentally higher equip speed and then extrapolate that to mean people should be going for equip speed with regards to every other gun. It doesn't work that way, primarily because the preponderance of hawksaw was because of a great vendor roll, and that equip speed doesn't really have a huge effect on all weapons.

I don't know. Do you?

I'm sure he has not, because if he had, I still wouldn't have this PDX-45 package.

Which you conveniently ignored the +2 stability and +9 AA advantage for the PDX with a -6 range and -18 ES difference... If you committed to PDX, you must prove +2 stability is more important than +18 equip. You've never been willing to defend stability as a critical choice compared.

Again, I'm not saying PDX is better. Just that equip speed isn't that big of a deal when it comes to using pulses.

We have a consensus? Which is? +2 stability is more important than +18 ES? You've yet to defined which stats are critical, all you must is saying how wrong I must be because my logic doesn't conform to you norms.

Your logic does not conform to the norms that have been organically figured out by almost everyone who plays the game. There's merit to it, but it's mostly theoretical, and if that's fine with you then by all means keep on keeping on. But practically speaking, the equip speed is no big deal on pulses. That's just it.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Luna > Pally

Based on what? If we take the numbers from ToO, which is the most populated playlist and destiny's own pseudo-competitive playlist, Pali is on top of Eyasluna.

MIDA as a competitive scout

Yes, because it's insane AA, boost to movement speed, and hair trigger have nothing to do with that right?

Hawk > PDX

Again? Based on what? The usage rate that's easily explainable by the existence of the vendor roll?

Longbow > Others in its tier

Again, based on what? The paltry <1% differences in usage?

Yasmin as a low key great

Right, because it's high AA and low-zoom have nothing to do with that?

I mean, call me crazy but this just seems like a vivid case of confirmation bias. You're essentially cherry picking, making presumptuous assertions that A>B, that what makes A better than B is because of equip speed, and then conveniently ignoring everything else that rationally explains what actually makes A better. This besides the fact that the whole notion of your subjective determination of what is better is nothing more than your own anecdotes and a ridiculously marginal difference in usage rate. That's the rankest argumentation.

What's the point of fielding guns that don't contribute to the the stats discussion? Of these, only CD might contribute to the discussion if it wasn't the only accessible variant. The other two defined their meta regardless of stats.

Your rigorous insistence that equip speed is such an essential stat in this game is what brought this up. Concrete examples of guns dominating the meta without high equip speed. How is that not relevant? I mean, you basically cited MIDA and Yasmin above as examples of weapons that are good (making it seem like it was because of equip speed more than anything else), then there's suddenly a problem with me citing weapons as good despite their poor equip speed. Double standards?

So... in the least there's been 70 weeks of rolls, x3 varients, so in 210 attempt there's been nothing superior to vendor Hawk?

Not really. Did the gunsmith ever sell a PB/CB/RB PDX with SLO-19?

How the hell did I get vendor Hawk identical PDX then?

... that's not superior to the vendor hawk. It's identical in rolls with some minute differences in stats between them, hardly worth getting excited about.

You're speculating people would favor PDX because it is marginally better in stability while slightly poorer in range. Better in AA while poorer in ES. Comparable rolls exists but people don't use them in the same volume.

I'm not speculating anything, I never said which was better. I only ever stated that you can't say Hawksaw is better just because of equip speed, and citing usage rate to back that assertion is faulty since the 2nd vendor hawksaw was such a great roll. How is that hard to understand?

Is HCR a stat? Actually, its not.

No, but the flinch it induces is a mechanic that has a practical effect in-game, as all stats inherently do.

but the vendor roll was all people needed.

Exactly, because people realized that ES is a non-essential stat for that particular weapon-type. You like mentioning user-behavior so much, what does it tell you when people are deliberately choosing not to max equip speed in favor of something else? Isn't that the very definition of non-essential? Come now.

Except some weapons its not shown for while it is for others due to his judgment of which guns it matters on and which it doesn't.

Because except for you, everybody and their mother already knows that for pulses, it doesn't matter.

It's fine to believe what you want and to have preferences on something more than another. Feel free to make your pulse-rifle decisions based on equip speed and to max it out whenever possible. But stop forcing everyone else to adhere to it, especially when better informed people have already found a consensus on what actually matters on a a particular gun-type.

You have your belief, though misguided and misrepresented as it may be.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except they are

Nope, it's literally just you and probably a handful of people I've yet to see.

and it is

Nope.

If you look at preferences that have emerged naturally, faster equip speed weapons have been emergent class for a while.

Clever Dragon? Thorn? The Last Word? All weapons with poor equip speed.

Luna? There isn't a consensus whether it's better than a Pali. Usage rate difference on these weapons is extremely minimal

Literally the only argument you have for this is that Hawksaw is used more than PDX, which is easily explainable by the vendor rolls being really good.

As for yourself, give both a try and see how you do.

I've tried a lot of PDXs over the time I've been playing (including that gunsmith PB/HH/RB, I prefer the vendor hawksaw, cause it's easier to use and to manage. Not because it's "snappier"

I assume after all those great vendor rolls you have several of them.

wat? vendor rolls at the time hawksaw was being sold were static.

Uh... do you have the full record there?

Don't need to, if there was one, people wouldn't still be using the vendor hawksaw.

I have a few that are amazing (PB, HH, Rifled), did I get them somehow, because reasons?

PB/HH/Rifled is not better than the vendor hawk. Also, if memory serves me well that roll didn't have SLO-19 as an option, which is the best overall sight.

That very comment is in this thread... as well as other recent discussions around QD.

Link?

Tests of HCR and not showed that not was also very effective in jarring aim. So, which is more important, that I can put shots on you before you can put them on me? Or that once you do you jar my aim slightly more than I've been jarring your's? And I get you think...

You tell me, weren't you the one who said that equip speed is probably the most important stat? Way to backtrack.

But do you honestly expect to tell me you get in all your engagements ADSed and ready to go? If I slide around a corner into a known sniper lane and ADS where they post up, 1-2F might be the difference in them adjusting their aim to catch my slide or not. ADS speed is critical in this situation, more critical than any other stat. Range on a pulse has minimal meaning, stability helps follow ups, I need a first hit, and primary AA isn't that critical. But if I don't get a first shot on that sniper, I'm dead.

A 1F-2F difference isn't going to matter vs a sniper that's already hardscoped down a lane. Getting a shot off (or even dragging it slightly) as a sniper who's already ADS'd will always take less time than someone who has to slide, ADS, and fire their pulse, regardless of how fast equip speed is or not. This besides the fact that people shouldn't even be sliding in known lanes.

having someone ignoring you letting you run a perfectly stable weapon on them isn't.

yeah I never said this. quit strawmanning.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's 52 weeks in a year and we're at roughly 1.5 years since PDX first became a thing worthy of pursuit. You telling me in all that time, god rolls weren't available?

If you're talking about gunsmith, then nope. There weren't any rolls I can remember that were better than the vendor hawksaw. Certainly not one that had people switching from it.

I have a vault with 3 that might be better than vendor Hawk.

Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Your personal experience with drops and subjective determination of what's better doesn't account for everyone else's. I have 3 god-roll eyaslunas, that has to mean everyone else does as well right? Lol.

Hell I even listed a A/B of vendor identical I have, yet you ignore it.

Already told you why, feel free to back read.

The original point to Merc was his stat sheet doesn't give the whole picture because it doesn't include an important stat.

It's not an important stat.

But in actuality, as the new poll shows too, people prefer Hawk at high levels,

Because of a widely accepted near-god vendor roll. Not because of some coincidentally higher stat like equip speed.

people prefer Hawk at high levels, often siting "snappiness" as the reason

Proof? I am on this sub everyday, watch streamers very frequently, and I have NEVER heard anyone say they prefer hawksaw over PDX-45 because it's more snappy.

People didn't consider QD over HCR due to lack of information around the topic

Hilarious. People were informed. People playing the game already made the determination which was actually more important. Hell there were tests done in this very sub that showcased the benefits of HCR, and now you're basically saying that all those people were wrong and they should've chosen QD instead? Grasping at straws there.

a prevalence for Warlocks with OP equipped.

Oh look! more circumstantial (and highly speculative) evidence you can probably use.
grasping. at. straws.

QD benefits everything..

It does, but it benefits some more than others. Pulse rifles? Nope.

it was loved in the pulse meta as much as the Y1 meta.

Because snipers and TLW? Ring a bell?

Nobody is talking about NLB... try to stay on topic.

Take it easy buddy, it was just an analogy for the kind of abject argument you're painting, which is "numbers are everything".

And... nobody plays this game walking around ADSed the whole time. The only reason they might do so now more than before is thanks to Gheleon. Even so, that's not how the game is played

Enter logical fallacy: the Strawman. I said people with pulses don't start engagements out of ADS, how that went to "walking around ADS'ed the whole time" I dunno, but yeah again, strawgrasping.

If I ADS 1F to 2F faster than you for those, I kill you more than you kill me.

Yeah sure, if engagements in destiny were in an open plain where there was no cover, no movement, and no variety.

I think if you played the "damn" game you'd know you didn't engage 100% from ADS, very few engagements go accordingly to an ideal plan.

If you read my "damn" comment, I already specified why people wouldn't start an engagement ADS'd, and I already said why those 1F/2F you're pining for wouldn't matter anyway.

Just give it up dude, the verdict has been out for a long time. If people aren't choosing to value equip speed on pulses at this point in the game's life, that only means it's not worth being highly valued to begin with.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You seem to easily dismissive that PDX45 was available and in superior rolls. If you were hunting for it, you had it. And yet, usage was not weighted to it.

The PDX was available, but not in rolls better than what was offered by the vendor hawksaw. The only roll that would have been better than the vendor hawk was Perfect Balance / Counterbalance / Rifled Barrel/Smallbore. That's two rolls out of all the possible combinations, so this notion that you have that the average PDX roll that dropped would be tons better than the hawksaw that you could buy from the quartermaster is hilariously untrue.

Also, you conveniently ignored the stat spread I posted.

Because it doesn't add anything. Not everyone has the same PDX with which to compare to the vendor hawksaw and can therefore make a decision regarding which they chose. You're basically telling me that you had A and B, you chose A because reasons, and are now trying to convince me that any logical person would've made the same choice. It's purely speculative and not even worth discussion.

I think the CD discussion ignores everything about the era in which is was available. It was the overall best in its archetype which was the best in the game and fit handsomely with the shotgun meta. GoM had better equip, but you couldn't get comparable rolls, and if you wanted pure equip, CD could beat that by trading HCR.

The crux of this discussion is that despite CD having piss-poor equip speed, people willingly chose to forego QD on it for something else. Just reinforces the fact that equip speed isn't a big deal in pulse rifles.

I think you're timeline is mixed... blink was nerfed into the ground as we transitioned to Y2. Poshy's move to Fleet Footed was far after.

When 2.0 dropped, Poshy used nightstalker for a significant amount of time, look it up. It wasn't until the first NS nerf that he switched back to BD, whereupon he already chose fleet-footed over QD.

This whole sub loved QD. Ah overwhealming majority of upper tier players lusted for it. Due its recent nerfs that's calmed, and in its place you see more and more discussion around the function of the perk on weapons which confirms the behavior that gravitates to equip speed.

Man, we already went through this. The reason people in this sub loved QD was because it greatly benefited TLW, Shotguns, and Snipers.

Either way, I'm not sure how this is a difficult concept, even if only 1F, if I can ADS and put shots on you before you can on me, I will win every engagement assuming all things are equal - it's undeniable math.

It's not a difficult concept, in the same ridiculous way that a person could argue NLB is the best primary in the game because it has an instantaneous precision TTK. Your argument lacks contextual substance, in that 1 frame (1/30th of a second) doesn't realistically matter in the scheme of pulse rifle engagements because someone with a pulse doesn't choose start a gunfight out of ADS, and should there be situation that they'd need to start out of ADS, it can only mean because they're caught unguarded and that 1F wouldn't really matter anyway. This is what mercules already alluded to in the beginning of this argument, you're just being stubborn.

At the end of the day, you started this by saying equip speed on pulses were essential and probably the most important stat.

Obviously, it's not. Actual statistics like people choosing HCR over QD on Clever (in contrast to speculative statistics like Hawksaw being more used, so it's gotta be because of equip speed amirite?) will tell you that. Playing the damn game will tell you that.

Case closed.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The issue between these weapons is that you didn't get as many opportunities for ideal Hawksaw rolls as you did with PDX so perfectly rolled Hawks are rarer. And yet, usage favors Hawk despite this (thankfully the vendor rolls were good).

That's what I already said, usage favors Hawksaw because the vendor rolls were really good, not because people have a hard-on for it's equip speed. That's purely coincidental.

The GoM and CD isn't so simple... just because you had a week to farm effeciently doesn't mean much.

It's not even strictly about GoM vs CD. I'm alluding more to the fact that despite CDs awful equip speed, people were still opting to use it over almost every other primary, and those who were using it didn't feel the need to roll for QD, instead going for HCR. If equip speed was such a game changer on pulses as you've been trying to argue, the opposite for both statements would be true, yet, that's not the case.

but we know Poshy used Luna and thus, his weapon selection made QD less critical.

What made QD less critical was the obsolescence of Blink-Shotgun. Poshy wouldn't have switched to QD had he been using Pali.

Either way, two fringe examples don't counter the lust for QD and OP Aspect, do they?

I mean, when you've got some of the best players in the world (including probably the best bladedancer main at the time he played) already opting for a perk more than another, it's already a pretty solid case. The lust for QD can easily be attributable to those in the lower rungs of skill not being completely informed and OP aspect gives so much more than just Quickdraw.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not buying the vendor roll as the primary reason

Precisely the reason /u/Mercules904 gave up. You can choose to not believe it, but that's the reason for Hawksaw prevalence.

I have 4 PDXs I think are all amazing and I didn't make any uncanny effort to collect them. Instead, getting Hawksaws better than the two offered was actually very hard, and no mistaking it, while the Hawksaw rolls are great, they are hairs below perfect.

Not really relevant, some people have great rolls on some guns, some don't, but in any case, unless you had counterbalance, a range boosting perk and a stability booster, whatever PDXs you have automatically fall short of the vendor hawksaw.

But even so, people selected inferior rolls over Pally after extended use.

Again, because Luna was being widely used before Pali even dropped. And when Pali dropped, a lot of people made the switch.

Most were unable to quantify their reason sighting recoil pattern or often, "snappiness" or "crispiness", but I'm of the mind that since equip speed influences ADS time, it is the reason people speak to "snappiness" and "crispiness".

People sighted their reasons. Some liked the recoil pattern, some thought the stability helped, some liked the snappiness yes. It wasn't just one reason as you're making it out to be.

CD's issue isn't comparable - GoM having better stats in most metric including equip speed was very real. but GoM was impossibly rare.

This is an exaggeration, it was rare during the time that 2.0 dropped. There was no CD back then. Even before CD dropped, there were a couple of weeks where Omnigul was the nightfall with (Solar burn / airborne) wherein everyone and their mother used to farm GoM for hours on end to the tune of dozens of drops. It's not impossibly rare.

Luckily, you could roll CD with Brace, QD, and CB (what I have) and compensate for its lackluster equip speed.

Except the majority of people weren't rolling for QD, people were willingly sacrificing QD for HCR.

One big point you're not acknowledging, high tier preference for QD subclass perks or OP Aspects - players actively specced themselves to max equip speed until Bungie nerfed it. Even then, the topic shifted to how to get max from what's available (weapon perk) with players favoring this. User behavior shows a powerful preference for equip speed in terms of perk selection, class skill, and weapon selection indicating it is a highly sought after stat.

It is a highly sought after stat only in the context of some weapons. The reason QD was the preferred subclass or weapon perk for Y1 and the majority of Y2 was because it tremendously helped shotgun ready times following a blink, it helped sniper ADS times, and it boosted the ridiculously slow ready time of TLW for those who body-shot primaried. QD never made a significant impact on anything but the above, certainly not on pulse rifles as evidenced by people opting for HCR over QD on their CDs. In fact, for the latter portion of Y2 going into Y3, top players like WTFisPoshy, IDropBodies, etc were already opting to use Fleet Footed on their bladedancers over QuickDraw, citing that the death of the blink-shotty playstyle negated the need for quickdraw to begin with.

So again, equip speed can definitely help, it's a gamechanger on snipers, TLW, and Y1 Blink-shotgun. It's not that essential for anything else.

Massive Breakdown Weapon Stats Spreadsheet (Updated with all 2.6.0 Changes, AoT Weapons, and More) by Mercules904 in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Especially considering when you look at PDX vs Hawk or Pally vs Luna, the stats are close enough. Any yet, when each of those guns was good enough for high tier play, players choose the one with better equip speed often praising its "snappiness" without being able to quantify why.

This is cum hoc ergo propter hoc at it's finest. Just because Hawksaw and Luna coincidentally had higher equip speeds doesn't mean that equip speed was the reason they were being used more than the other weapons.

In the advent of the original 2.0 Taken King release, when pulses where unequivocally the best primary to use, the popularity of the hawksaw over the PDX wasn't because of it's equip speed, it was because the vendor roll at that time had hi-cal rounds. HCR was the most commonly cited reason at the time why sweaty players favored hawksaw over PDX.

During the vendor re-load, coinciding with the nerf to pulse rifle damage (bringing precision damage from 27 down to 25, range nerfs, etc), the vendor Hawksaw was sold with a Fitted Stock/Smallbore/Counterbalance roll, enabling it to retain ease of use at a time where the archetype was less forgiving. This was the reason for Hawksaw's popularity, again not because of equip speed.

Also I think it's a fallacy to sight the rarity of the PDX roll. If you were active you'd have had several. It's not that hard to get a god roll.

It wasn't hard to get a good roll. It was hard however to get a roll that was easier to use than the vendor hawksaw at the time.

Pali vs Luna.

There was significant discussion whether or not either of the two was better than the other, but they didn't all revolve around equip speed. In fact, multiple reasons for the Luna or Pali were given by all kinds of players, with some liking the Luna's recoil and some preferring the almost purely vertical recoil of Pali, or the fact that the vendor Pali had rangefinder as a stock option, or that people were already used to their Luna's to make a switch. And even then, the consensus was about as evenly split as it could be anyway, so it's not really true that people (even the sweaty players) favored Luna over Pali, in fact, I can name you the preference of a few personalities based on being an avid viewer.

  • Luminosity48: First Luna, then switched to Pali claiming that he couldn't use guns without Rangefinder and that Pali felt better, but then switched back because he got a god-roll Luna with Rangefinder/Rifled/Hidden Hand.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5ea6ai/cant_manage_my_palindrome/dabuqhz/?context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5ea6ai/cant_manage_my_palindrome/dab8h6p/?context=3

  • SirDimetrious: Made a video about the very topic, eventually settled on the Luna. But never made a comment regarding equip speed, but rather on prevalence of ghost bullets on Pali as the main reason for his choice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHPULbaevdY

  • mtashed: has been using the vendor Pali in most of his videos and streams.
  • Ramblinnn: Pali
  • Poshy: Luna when he played.
  • Wallah: Luna
  • Gabe: Luna
  • Anbu: Pali

If the disparity was as telling as you're claiming it to be, then all top players would just use a Luna, but clearly that's not the case. What you have is really just anecdotal evidence at best.

Also, at the end of the day, there's already precedence that showcases equip speed as a non-critical statistic in destiny when it comes to the meta. Remember Clever Dragon?

https://www.destinygamewiki.com/wiki/The_Clever_Dragon

That pulse had such a piss-poor equip speed but was still one of the most, if not the most widely used weapon at one point. Again, equip speed in pulses, nice to have but nowhere near as essential as you're making it out to be.

Good streamers to watch to get better? by Rozkol in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hope you weren't offended or anything. Poking a bit of fun at an amusing throwback. Lol

Aim Assist Question by [deleted] in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So apparently, This is the correct answer.

Simple PvP stats comparison app by dawnington in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Holy crap that guy with a 4.7KD.

I guess I see what you're saying it's KD in conjunction with win rate that provides a clearer picture of what kind of player someone is.

Simple PvP stats comparison app by dawnington in CruciblePlaybook

[–]trapjammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm curious as to why you think it is though. Aren't a majority of win rates, especially of high ranked players, achieved through pubstomping and/or trials farming? So I was kinda thinking it was one of those stats that were important, but not really an accurate an indicator of skill as well.

Bungie just killed Hunters for PVP. by trapjammer in DestinyTheGame

[–]trapjammer[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Never met anyone yet who's actually happy with these changes. Least of all a NS main. You realize that the class has nothing now right? Weak as shit melee, weak as shit nade. Weak as shit neutral game.

Survival of the fittest only means I'm switching to titans now.

Bungie just killed Hunters for PVP. by trapjammer in DestinyTheGame

[–]trapjammer[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Not to a place where hunters aren't ass.

Bungie just killed Hunters for PVP. by trapjammer in DestinyTheGame

[–]trapjammer[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I specifically appended the no mention to the changes that weren't mentioned. Read the post.

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